Penalty Points Is it working?

yayamark

Just wanted to get the thoughts and ideas of people on penalty points in ireland.

In my opinion i thought it was working at the start but now there are so many loopholes and ways to avoid pen pts i think its a mess.

Just a few questions for ye to think about

Does anyone think that the whole enforcement and implications of the pen pts is a bit of a joke?

I mean is anybody really scared?

Do people tell ins companies?

Do ins companies add on a substantial penalty?

Do ins companies check if u dont tell them u have pts?

Is the admin system that is imposing these points effecint?

The joke of standing up in court and saying "i never got the fixed charge notice in the post" and getting away with it

The lack of knowledge by people re when do the points start when do they finish

Foreign D/Licences?

Im not giving out or complaining about anyone and not looking to start a vendetta against "boyracers" or gardai, jist looking for yer views

Thanks.

Pete4779

Penalty points = not something to improve driver behaviour.

The sooner the response to a crime, the better. I.e., if there are plenty of marked police cars around, you would be pulled over as soon as driving dangerously, overtaking dangerously, and so on.

Penalty points mean the police can have a Health & Safety Approved life at work safe behind a camera. They never see you except for your license plate, you never see them.

You were speeding......4 months ago and have to go and pay a fine......does that help learning to drive safely? I don't think so. Being pulled over promptly would do.

For the record - I have no points.

I think it is a problem that there is general lack of respect for proper law and order, and the police shouldn't need to do it, but the points system at least is something even stupid people (who are unable to learn from their mistakes) can figure out.

yayamark

ya i agree i suppose it might take a generation before we start adhering to it.

It all starts with educationm educating the young would be a good start

ballooba

Something like 80% of points go for speeding. Speeding is reponsible for less than 30% of deaths. They should spread it around a bit. One should get points for a blown headlamp etc.

blastman

If they started giving out points for blown/dodgy lights, half the drivers on the road would be banned (and rightly so)! It's just sheer laziness and ignorance, especially front lights, you couldn't not notice that a bulb is gone on the front, could you?

mac500

blastman wrote: »

If they started giving out points for blown/dodgy lights, half the drivers on the road would be banned (and rightly so)! It's just sheer laziness and ignorance, especially front lights, you couldn't not notice that a bulb is gone on the front, could you?

Ya one may notice it blown but what if ya had to get home from some place and it just happen to blow when you were leaving and no place was open to get a replacement, imo i dont think that justifies getting points

Guy:Incognito

mac500 wrote: »

Ya one may notice it blown but what if ya had to get home from some place and it just happen to blow when you were leaving and no place was open to get a replacement, imo i dont think that justifies getting points

You should b ecarrying a replacement bulb kit like on the continent.

Seth Brundle

Stekelly wrote: »

You should b ecarrying a replacement bulb kit like on the continent.

Should? Maybe!
Must? No!

ballooba

kbannon wrote: »

Should? Maybe!
Must? No!

People would if they knew they would get points.

What about seat belts? How many checks for that?

Accident today in Westmeath. 6 people in a BMW 116 with 5 seat belts. 2 dead.

edit: Actually:
77% for speeding.
9% for seat belts (including about .5% for children).
4% for mobile phone.
2% for breaking lights.
2% for ignoring road signs. (Yield/Stop etc.)
1.5% for crossing white line.
1% for no insurance.
http://www.penaltypoints.ie/assets/pdf/penalty%20point%20notices%20%20issued%20by%20offence%20type%20%20-%20oct%2007%20(5).pdf

jimmycrackcorm

Stekelly wrote: »

You should b ecarrying a replacement bulb kit like on the continent.

Replacement xenons? And if you were a girlie would you know how to change them? And what if the replacement bulb blew too? And hown many fatalities are caused by a blown headlamp bulb?

drunkdaz

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Replacement xenons? And if you were a girlie would you know how to change them? And what if the replacement bulb blew too? And hown many fatalities are caused by a blown headlamp bulb?

Thats half the point of xenons; they don't "blow". They require far less maintainence as they do not contain an element.
Really though you cannot preempt every possibility. This should be a points offence because so many people show such contempt for a problem which can be avoided so easily; Irish people are just so lazy in this regard.

With regard to the points system overall. It works as it reminds people of the responsibility they have when on the road; though I think way too much emphasis on speeding. A more balanced use would improve driving standards and fatality reductions would follow.

Guy:Incognito

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Replacement xenons?

Why not? They can be bought when needed so why not before? As above, they need less maintenance so you'd probably only need 1 for a long time

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

And if you were a girlie would you know how to change them?

Me? yes, but then again I'm not an idiot.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

And what if the replacement bulb blew too?

Go to a motor factors/garage and buy a new one? It's fairly unlikely (barring some sort of electrical fault, but then you really should be getting that looked at asap) that you will blow a bulb, get stopped, replace it, have it blow again and be stopped a 2nd time, before you can get to a garage/motor factors.

But then we are talking about responsible motoring. That hasnt seemed to have caught on here yet.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

And hown many fatalities are caused by a blown headlamp bulb?

Thats not whats being discussed, the questions were about points for blown bulbs. Countries such as Germany which are held up as shinign lights for us to look up to fine etc for blown bulbs so why shouldnt we?

I'd say theres been a few anyway. It can be quite difficult to make out whether a vehicle coming towards you is a car with a blown headlamp on one side or a motorbike on a dark road.

Pete4779

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

And hown many fatalities are caused by a blown headlamp bulb?

I think the little ignorances contribute to the greater accidents.

It's about responsibility and maintaining proper road safety. If you are driving with a blow headlamp, it indicates (in my opinion) not just that you are missing a bulb but also a general lazy and possibly dangerous attitude when doing ALL car things - driving, indicating, wearing seatbelts.

For example, and I know it's stretching it a bit, but didn't the New York crime rate drop significantly when the small "petty" crimes were tackled? It had a sort of trickle "up" effect on bigger crime.

So, tolerating a blown bulb in my mind is tolerating larger stupidity on the road. If the person can't change a bulb or plan to keep a replacement kit for bulbs, should we be trusting them to do things like overtake, drive on motorways, and do more important car related things?

So it starts with the little offences in my opinion. Tackling those would make a lot of the lazy and selfish drivers sit up or get off the road; if you got points tomorrow for blown bulbs, suddenly there would be no blown headlamps to be seen. Same for all the other "little" things. Tolerate enough minor indiscretions and eventually someone makes a big one - like putting 6 adults in a car designed for 5.

Many EU countries including the UK have a more comprehensive testing system before you ever get behind the wheel; Germany is just one main example of a country with quite strict requirements and courses for driving licenses.

In Ireland, any idiot aged 17 can just buy a license, ignore the unenforced law about driving with L-plates on a motorway or unaccompanied, and go off with no worries, cares in the world - or *any* sense of proper attitude and knowledge of the road. This starts with education, and respect for what is a privelege.

Why would anyone obey speed limits if they see it as a revenue exercise?
Why would anyone change a bulb if it's okay to drive around with a blown headlamp or (frequently) driving at dusk with no lights on at all.
It's a symptom of general ignorance of driving and maintenance, and tackling it would likely have a greater reduction in road deaths than all the speeding points in the world. And it begins by allowing people with no knowledge out on the roads - people who should be ashamed of themselves for displaying contempt for licensed road users who at least have displayed some minimum level of competence.

blastman

mac500 wrote: »

Ya one may notice it blown but what if ya had to get home from some place and it just happen to blow when you were leaving and no place was open to get a replacement, imo i dont think that justifies getting points

There's a HELL of a lot of people driving around with just-blown bulbs, in that case....

nytraveller

Insurance companies , Gardai and Motor tax office should be linked to one central data base. Insurance companies should double their premiums for speeders!

craichoe

nytraveller wrote: »

Insurance companies , Gardai and Motor tax office should be linked to one central data base. Insurance companies should double their premiums for speeders!

No thanks, don't want my personal data that the Gardai have shared with a Private Company.

I believe an Insurance company which is essentially a private company should have the same rights as any indivdual that query the Gardai for information. It works the same way for the Gardai if they query a private company for data, they need a court order to get it !

And thats mine and everyones right under law.

From: dataprotection.ie

Data Protection - Your Rights

For the most part, those that hold personal information relating to individuals do so in a responsible manner. It is possible however, that:

* The information kept about you may be wrong or out of date
* It may be given to someone not entitled to see it
* You may find yourself receiving 'junk mail'
* Your privacy might be threatened in other more serious ways

The Data Protection Acts, 1988 and 2003 gives you rights to protect you against these and similar problems, and creates obligations for those keeping personal information.

endplate

ballooba wrote: »

edit: Actually:
77% for speeding.
9% for seat belts (including about .5% for children).
4% for mobile phone.
2% for breaking lights.
2% for ignoring road signs. (Yield/Stop etc.)
1.5% for crossing white line.
1% for no insurance.
http://www.penaltypoints.ie/assets/pdf/penalty%20point%20notices%20%20issued%20by%20offence%20type%20%20-%20oct%2007%20(5).pdf

Well there you go can you spot which offense doesn't require the Garda having to stop you and issue out the points. The system sucks and is obviously a money making racket

ballooba

nytraveller wrote: »

Insurance companies , Gardai and Motor tax office should be linked to one central data base. Insurance companies should double their premiums for speeders!

Why would they double premiums for speeders rather than any other offence?

Andrewf20

blastman wrote: »

If they started giving out points for blown/dodgy lights, half the drivers on the road would be banned (and rightly so)! It's just sheer laziness and ignorance, especially front lights, you couldn't not notice that a bulb is gone on the front, could you?

Agreed. And its not massively difficult to keep some spare bulbs in the glove compartment. I was driving behind some rehab in a 4x4 last night with no rear bulbs working.

astraboy

nytraveller wrote: »

Insurance companies , Gardai and Motor tax office should be linked to one central data base. Insurance companies should double their premiums for speeders!

Ya, because doing 55Kph in a 50 warrants a doubling of your premium, even though you have not hurt anyone?:rolleyes: Get a life, speeding is not the sole, nor even the main, cause of RTA's in Ireland. It is all round poor general behaviour on the roads. Inappropiate speed is far worse, people not adjusting speed for the conditions etc. Also, slow, incompetent drivers refusing to pull in and allowing everyone else to make progress should get points.

Seth Brundle

nytraveller wrote: »

Insurance companies should double their premiums for speeders!

:rolleyes:
Have you never exceeded the speed limit whilst driving for whatever reason?

prendy

ya that wouldnt work although the central database for Points would be an idea...at the min is it only you that tells the insurance company about the points?
what happens if you dont tell them?

Seth Brundle

If you lie to your insurance company you may well be invalidating your policy!

nytraveller

craichoe wrote: »

No thanks, don't want my personal data that the Gardai have shared with a Private Company.

I believe an Insurance company which is essentially a private company should have the same rights as any indivdual that query the Gardai for information. It works the same way for the Gardai if they query a private company for data, they need a court order to get it !

And thats mine and everyones right under law.

From: dataprotection.ie

Data Protection - Your Rights

For the most part, those that hold personal information relating to individuals do so in a responsible manner. It is possible however, that:

* The information kept about you may be wrong or out of date
* It may be given to someone not entitled to see it
* You may find yourself receiving 'junk mail'
* Your privacy might be threatened in other more serious ways

The Data Protection Acts, 1988 and 2003 gives you rights to protect you against these and similar problems, and creates obligations for those keeping personal information.

Why would you object to insurance companies obtaining a copy of your driving record? They already have all your personal details anyway.

nytraveller

astraboy wrote: »

Ya, because doing 55Kph in a 50 warrants a doubling of your premium, even though you have not hurt anyone?:rolleyes: Get a life, speeding is not the sole, nor even the main, cause of RTA's in Ireland. It is all round poor general behaviour on the roads. Inappropiate speed is far worse, people not adjusting speed for the conditions etc. Also, slow, incompetent drivers refusing to pull in and allowing everyone else to make progress should get points.

Look, what Im saying is that fines for speeding are not enough. I speed, I get points, so what? What then??

I remember a few years ago, a friend of mine would always drive in the bus lane on the way to work. the Garda would be hiding at the end and pull him over. Gives him a ticket for 80 euro. Doesnt stop him from doing it again. (He's got a lot of money!!)

Getting 12 points (for any offences) means disqualification for 6 months.
Most people just continue to drive anyway.

We need stricter penalties.

nytraveller

kbannon wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Have you never exceeded the speed limit whilst driving for whatever reason?

Of course I have!!

Capt'n Midnight

It's one penalty point to drive on those painted traffic islands.

Have you ever seen anyone NOT drive on them ?


enforcement is the key.

ballooba

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

enforcement is the key.

That 77% of penalty points are for speeding is an ominous statistic.

Penalty Points issued for an offence should be in line with the number of accidents they cause. eg. crossing white line should make up ~10% IIRC.

Guy:Incognito

ballooba wrote: »

That 77% of penalty points are for speeding is an ominous statistic.

Penalty Points issued for an offence should be in line with the number of accidents they cause. eg. crossing white line should make up ~10% IIRC.

The problem is there isnt really a "crossing white line" camera available. You can remotely catch people for speeding. Other things like seatbelts , white lines etc require a gard to basically stumble upon it as it happens. I'd imagine figures in every country for offences are spread similar to our own.

ballooba

Stekelly wrote: »

The problem is there isnt really a "crossing white line" camera available. You can remotely catch people for speeding. Other things like seatbelts , white lines etc require a gard to basically stumble upon it as it happens. I'd imagine figures in every country for offences are spread similar to our own.

That doesn't make it right. It puts inappropriate focus on speeding. The same argument could be made about drink driving which kills almost as many as speeding.

Guy:Incognito

ballooba wrote: »

That doesn't make it right..

How can catching people breaking the law not be right?

Just becasue they catch more people speedign than other offences doesnt make speedign any less wrong.

ballooba wrote: »

The same argument could be made about drink driving which kills almost as many as speeding.

So if they star catching more people drink drivign than anything else, should they lay off the drink drivers and be "fair"?

ballooba

Stekelly wrote: »

How can catching people breaking the law not be right?

Just becasue they catch more people speedign than other offences doesnt make speedign any less wrong.

So if they star catching more people drink drivign than anything else, should they lay off the drink drivers and be "fair"?

Not suggesting they lay off anyone. If anything they should be catching more people. They have been saying in the UK for years that the speed cameras are put in because they cost less and bring in more money than cops out and about. They should increase the number of offences prosecuted by cops .

How hard can it be to nab people for drink driving? You sit outside the pub and wait for them. It's like shooting fish in a barrell.

The behaviours that cause 70% of KSI accidents attract 23% of the sanctions. How can that be right?

astraboy

You would reckon people should be taken out of their cars and beaten for breaking the speed limit the way people go on in here sometimes!

Seriously, sometimes a stern warning from a cop is as good as points. Mindless enforcement of sometimes too low speed limits requires little or no effort. The fact speed cameras will be introduced will no doubt mean less cops on the roads. This means people WILL get away with stupid, dangerous driving as long as its below the limit. More cops on our roads and enforcement is what is needed.

An example: I was watching 'Road wars' last night. A guy took off too fast from some lights in a 350z. He was pulled over. No points, but the cop did give him a bit of a grilling with the ever present classy manner of british cops. "Do you have points jason?" "No officer". Well I suggest you slow down if you wish to keep it that way." Left the guy go. The guy will no doubt remember the incident and watch his driving. Slapping points on people is not the only way to enforce the law on the road.

pa990

Getting back to the Topic "Penalty Points, is it working ?"


Penalty points were introduced to:
1) Save Lives
2) Reduce insurance premiums


as for 1, didnt many people say something along the lines of.. if it saves one life.. etc etc

well i think penalty points have saved some lives

And as for 2

to the best of my knowledge.. insurance premiums have come down in the last few years.


answer to the op; YES

ballooba

pa990 wrote: »

as for 1, didnt many people say something along the lines of.. if it saves one life.. etc etc

well i think penalty points have saved some lives

YES

If we spent the entire road safety budget for the whole country for the next ten years on enveloping the back roads of Donegal in foam it would no doubt save at least one life. Would it be money well spent?

If we spend close to 80% of resources on an issue that effects 30% of the problem is it money well spent?

yayamark

pa990 wrote: »

Getting back to the Topic "Penalty Points, is it working ?"


Penalty points were introduced to:
1) Save Lives
2) Reduce insurance premiums


as for 1, didnt many people say something along the lines of.. if it saves one life.. etc etc

well i think penalty points have saved some lives

And as for 2

to the best of my knowledge.. insurance premiums have come down in the last few years.



answer to the op; YES

ya true road deaths are down since the introduction of pp

and my insurance has come down about 3 grand:D

pa990

ballooba wrote: »

If we spent the entire road safety budget for the whole country for the next ten years on enveloping the back roads of Donegal in foam it would no doubt save at least one life. Would it be money well spent?

If we spend close to 80% of resources on an issue that effects 30% of the problem is it money well spent?

But according to RSA stats, road fatalities are down (and not just by 1)


also.. seeing as we are on about stats.. did you know that, it is expected that there will only be a 3% decrease in detections of drunk drivers this yr as a result of all of the advertising, ,and extra checkpoints..
Now that may not be money well spent.. but policing doesn't come cheap.


(please don't ask for a source for the 3%.. i will not be able to divulge its origin)

ballooba

According to the RSA road deaths are down, but this could be for any reason (including our flashy new ambulance fleet). The statistics recorded by the RSA are terrible. It's impossible to determine a causal effect between penalty points and a reductions in road deaths. We have had other initiatives in their such as random breath testing. We have also opened up a lot of motorway which are safer than the N routes they replace.

As long as penalty points only addresses 30% of fatal accidents it can only have an effect on the 30% of accidents. The systems was clearly not designed to be implemented in this way.

drdre

I am for and against penalty points.
I think they are working but i dont agree with getting points for doing 55 in a 50 zone.I have got points because of that and its really annoying.At one stage i was at 8 points now thank god back to 4 and also regarding insurance , its has droped a hell of a lot in the past 2 years.
I got insurance on a 07 golf gti and im only 23 for 1300 Fully comp.There was only one company who quoted me and that was hibernian.:)

Guy:Incognito

drdre wrote: »

I am for and against penalty points.
I think they are working but i dont agree with getting points for doing 55 in a 50 zone.I have got points because of that and its really annoying.At one stage i was at 8 points now thank god back to 4 and also regarding insurance , its has droped a hell of a lot in the past 2 years.
I got insurance on a 07 golf gti and im only 23 for 1300 Fully comp.There was only one company who quoted me and that was hibernian.:)

If you got points for doing 55 in a 50, your speedo probably read around 60. You knew you were speeding so whats the problem?

craichoe

nytraveller wrote: »

Why would you object to insurance companies obtaining a copy of your driving record? They already have all your personal details anyway.

Ah yes, the everlasting privacy argument

Because if they want it, then they should ask me and i'll give it to them. A private company and a public company should not freely give information to each other. Just because their an Insurance company, its doesn't give them some sort of special right to access my information. Whats next, Advertising companies, Personal Injury firms.

No, i'll keep it seperate thanks and if they really want it then i'll provide it.

nytraveller

craichoe wrote: »

Just because their an Insurance company, its doesn't give them some sort of special right to access my information. Whats next, Advertising companies, Personal Injury firms.

.

Would you not want them to know whether you are a good driver or a bad driver and therefore get a better rate?

I dont want to get into the privacy argument. It just makes sense to me that insurance companies should collect information on the drivers they are insuring. It might even bring the costs down. I dont see the problem with that. Remember, they have all your personal info anyway.