Russian's flexing muscles again

Tabnabs

Military tracks Russian subs off Norway's coast



The Russians have been sending fighter jets near Norwegian air space for months. Now some of their submarines have been tracked near territorial waters.

Norwegian officials have attributed the flights to an apparent need by the Russians to show renewed strength. They're not particularly alarmed over the emergence of the submarines as well.

"They showing off both a will and an ability to be a super power to be reckoned with," State Secretary Espen Barth Eide in the Defense Ministry told newspaper Aftenposten. "The u-boats are a Russian comment to the day's international themes."

Among those "themes" are the US' controversial plans to place a rocket shield system on the European continent. The Russians vigorously oppose the plans, and Barth Eide believes the dispatch of fighter jets and submarines is part of the official response.

The "comment," Barth Eide said, "isn't directed at any one country, and not at us (Norway)."

Norwegian Orion suveillance flights have determined that Russian subs are active just off Norwegian territory. The Orion aircraft can localize the subs, whose crews become aware that they've been spotted.

The dispatch of fighter jets and especially submarines was a common Soviet tactic during the Cold War, and awakens uncomfortable memories among many Norwegians. Barth Eide downplayed any threat.

"I don't view the heightened Russian activity as alarming," he said.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2120697.ece

Dave!

What's their interest in Norway exactly...?

eroo

Going back to their old ways...are we surprised...?
i think not!

Ross_Mahon

They are just taking the submarines for a spin

boneless

And NATO doesn't do this sort of thing, I suppose...;)

Sleipnir

DaveMcG wrote: »

What's their interest in Norway exactly...?

Submarine's from the Northern fleet would pass it to get to the North Sea and the Atlantic.

OS119

Sleipnir wrote: »

Submarine's from the Northern fleet would pass it to get to the North Sea and the Atlantic.

it dependes how 'near' is 'near Norwegian territorial waters'. putting an SSN 50 miles off the coast of a country you have territorial disputes with, who until comparatively recently you had concrete plans to invade, and at whom you regularly threaten to point nuclear weapons, is not by any stretch of the imagination a 'freindly act'.

if 'near' however means 200 miles at CPA - Closest Point of Approach - and then off into the great blue yonder, its a bit different.

personally i'd go for the former as the most likely, Russian long range aviation has been doing some serious legwork in the North Atlantic - two Tu-160 Blackjack nuclear strike bombers were followed to a turnaround point 50 miles west of County Clare very recently - in the competative atmosphere of inter-service rivalry for funding its somewhat unlikely that if the Russian AF could boast that they flew into NATO's South West Approaches and got to with 5 minutes flying time of Shannon the Russian Navy would counter that it had parked an SSN 200 miles off the Norwegian coast.

Tabnabs

This photograph was taken by the RNoAF a couple of months ago,


It clearly shows a cruise missile underneath a Russian Tupolev 22 bomber. Two bombers were in a "classic position" to fire cruise missiles, but both turned away before reaching Norwegian territory, 12 nautical miles from land. So they are certainly showing off their toys.

Kaiser_Sma

Isn't that an anti ship missle specifically? They usually use Tu22s for carrying those ludicrously huge things. Anti ship aircraft have to train somewhere i guess.

Does anybody believe that the russians would actually precipitate a war if lets say the norweigens fired on a russian aircraft or ship that violated their waters?

OS119

Kaiser_Sma wrote: »

Does anybody believe that the russians would actually precipitate a war if lets say the norweigens fired on a russian aircraft or ship that violated their waters?

possible, Russian forign policy has been getting a bit muscular recently - see their actions in Georgia, Ukraine, the Baltics for details - if a Norwegian aircraft was put in the position, through screw-up or design, where a Russian Aircraft was lost through collision or deliberate opening fire - or indeed was forced to land outside Russian territory - then i imagine that the Russian resonse would be unlikely to be conciliatory.

i think they'd go mental - mainly for internal political consumption and to send a message to what they regard as their 'backyard' - i wouldn't be remotely surprised to see large scale troop movements, Naval 'exercises' and a massive ramping up of incursion flights.

having Nuclear strike aircraft and SSN's trawl up and down your coastline is not unakin to having a man carrying a shotgun walk up and down your road, it may well be entirely legal - international airspace and all - but it isn't conducive to feeling secure. when people feel insecure they tend to be a bit less circumspect about reacting aggressively to potential threats.

cyrusdvirus

Say what you want about them, the Russians sure do build them pretty though.

Hagar

The Swedes were never keen on the Russians in their back yard either Article

I don't know if those orders are still in effect but I do remember several years ago watching on TV the Swedish Navy dropping depth charges on an unidentified sub intruding on their waters.

Kaiser_Sma

OS119 wrote: »

possible, Russian forign policy has been getting a bit muscular recently - see their actions in Georgia, Ukraine, the Baltics for details - if a Norwegian aircraft was put in the position, through screw-up or design, where a Russian Aircraft was lost through collision or deliberate opening fire - or indeed was forced to land outside Russian territory - then i imagine that the Russian resonse would be unlikely to be conciliatory.

i think they'd go mental - mainly for internal political consumption and to send a message to what they regard as their 'backyard' - i wouldn't be remotely surprised to see large scale troop movements, Naval 'exercises' and a massive ramping up of incursion flights.

having Nuclear strike aircraft and SSN's trawl up and down your coastline is not unakin to having a man carrying a shotgun walk up and down your road, it may well be entirely legal - international airspace and all - but it isn't conducive to feeling secure. when people feel insecure they tend to be a bit less circumspect about reacting aggressively to potential threats.

I have no doubt that they would make a serious stink if something like that did happen, and that some heavy military posturing would be involved. With regards to europe, their forign policy is to make things as difficult as possible, just so we recognise them as once again a card holder on the world stage. I have serious doubts however, that they will order any serious engagement with scandinavian countries (maybe a bit of a crisis but no war as such).

Admitedly russia deals with a heavy hand, more so then any of its neighbours, but i'd like to think that they have too much of a dependency on the rest of europe.

Catcher86

If everybody justs ignores the Russians and not respond in any way, then nothing will happen. They will get bored and stop.
Every Government knows that a conflict between western countries will never happen again. Our economies just could not afford it, and no one would want to risk it.
Also the Russians would not have any sympathisers if they started anything.

Victor

Dyflin wrote: »

Two bombers were in a "classic position" to fire cruise missiles,

What is a "classic position to fire cruise missiles" - it sounds like "the sentry was ready to shoot intruders within seconds" as he stood there slouched with his rifle slung over his shoulder.

Kaiser_Sma wrote: »

Isn't that an anti ship missle specifically?

Assuming its an Raduga Kh-22 (AS-4 Kitchen) or Raduga KSR-5 (AS-6 Kingfish) (but note "The Backfire may also have been an AS-6 carrier, but evidence is lacking to confirm this estimate.") it can also be used as a land attack missile with a nuclear warhead, but thats unlikely I suspect.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/as-4.htm
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/as-6.htm

For a Tu-22M3 (Backfire) payload would be one, two or three missiles. If two missiles are carried, six Kh-15/RKV-15 (AS-16 “Kickback”) can be carried internally. If a centreline missile is carried in the 1- or 3-missile configuration, it obstructs the internal bay and only four Kh-15/RKV-15 can be carried on the wings.

There aren't a whole lot of these missiles in existence.

Kaiser_Sma

Catcher86 wrote: »

Every Government knows that a conflict between western countries will never happen again. Our economies just could not afford it, and no one would want to risk it.

Thats what people thought back in 1901. If trends continue it woudl seem like that fortress europe is once agian beyond conflict. But trends rarely continue forever.

Tabnabs

Victor wrote: »

What is a "classic position to fire cruise missiles" - it sounds like "the sentry was ready to shoot intruders within seconds" as he stood there slouched with his rifle slung over his shoulder.

The "classic position" was reported by the RNoAF, so I would assume they know what that is considering they have been monitoring the Russian's since the 50's.

Interestingly, in a related story;

Norway and Sweden poised to defend each other
Sweden, long a neutral nation, is now making overtures that it will come to Norway's aid if its neighbour is attacked. Norway will do the same for Sweden, even though Sweden is not a member of NATO.

"Norway (which is a member of NATO) won't be passive, if Sweden falls under attack," State Secretary Espen Barth Eide in the Norwegian Defense Ministry told newspaper Aftenposten.

Barth Eide was responding to Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt's statements that he won't reject military support to Norway in the event of attack.

The Swedish government unveiled new military policy this week that showed unusually broad agreement among the government coalition parties. It also reveals that Sweden is more uneasy about its relations to Russia than it's been for years. Russia has recently been flexing restored military muscle, not least by sending fighter jets and submarines along Norway's coast.

"Sweden won't take a passive role if a catastrophe or an attack should strike another member of the European Union or a Nordic country," declared the government. "We expect that these countries would react in the same way if Sweden was struck."

Bildt told Aftenposten that he'd earlier said Sweden wouldn't be passive in the event of an attack on another EU land. "Now we're expanding that to include Norway and Iceland," he said.

He insisted that the offer of military aid to Norway isn't tied to attempts to encourage the Norwegian government to buy Swedish-made fighter jets. Norway needs to replace its fighter jets, and competition is hot among US, European and Swedish manufacturers.

Bildt also said he expects Norway to come to Sweden's aid if needed as well, and it will, according to Barth Eide of the Norwegian Defense Ministry. He called Bildt's new policy "historic," and former Norwegian Foreign Minister Jan Petersen said Sweden seemed to be moving closer towards western alliances.
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2141735.ece

mox54

it may be no bad thing if we go back to the bad old days of the cold war with 2 superpowers, Russia has now discovered it has been sitting on huge wealth all this time and it can afford to be bold again, until now they were meek and passive because they assumed they were broke and had nothing, so let the US dominate world affairs and flex it's muscles, now Russia is rich in scarce recources and wants to assert itself again,

;)Great!!! rather than global warming and mild winters we can contemplate nuclear winters;)

PixelTrawler

OS119 wrote: »

two Tu-160 Blackjack nuclear strike bombers were followed to a turnaround point 50 miles west of County Clare very recently - .

Who followed them - it was hardly us with our trainer props:)

Conor108

Anyone else been following this Nashi business?

Nashi

Victor

Dyflin wrote: »

The "classic position" was reported by the RNoAF, so I would assume they know what that is considering they have been monitoring the Russian's since the 50's.

Sorry, I though that was your own text. Would you have a link?

He called Bildt's new policy "historic," and former Norwegian Foreign Minister Jan Petersen said Sweden seemed to be moving closer towards western alliances.

I don't see this as a radical shift. While Sweden has a neutral history for 200 years or so, these days countries are generally unwilling to see their neighbours go down the drain. In the 1940s and 1950s Sweden considered joining NATO, but didn't as it would encourage the USSR to include Finland much more firmly in its grip - less Finlandisation, more Polandisation.

Tabnabs

In the latest twist to this saga, yesterday a Russian Naval exercise caused Norwegian helicopters from several oil platforms to be grounded due to the large quantity of Russian aircraft in the area.


'Admiral Kuznetsov' passing the 'Kvitebjørn' platform.


Russian helicopter photographed from the platform.

The Russian's have rebuked Norway's protests saying all flights took place in International airspace. However, since commercial operations were effected, they would not continue exercises so close to the oil platforms.

OS119

Joebloggs4817 wrote: »

Who followed them - it was hardly us with our trainer props:)

RNoAF F-16's from the north cape to the Faroes, RAF Tornado F3's with E-3D AWACS and Tanker support from Faroes to County Clare.

both the F-16's and the Tornado F3's were armed.

Kaiser_Sma

Just out of interest, is there any method in the repulic of ireland of intercepting a russian strategic bomber? Obviously not aircraft, but is there any other system that can shoot that high?

Conor108

Kaiser_Sma wrote: »

Just out of interest, is there any method in the repulic of ireland of intercepting a russian strategic bomber? Obviously not aircraft, but is there any other system that can shoot that high?

Potato guns!:D Nah I don't think theres anything but are the Russians interested in little old us. The UK has the star wars missile defence system don't they?

Kaiser_Sma

Conor108 wrote: »

Potato guns!:D Nah I don't think theres anything but are the Russians interested in little old us. The UK has the star wars missile defence system don't they?

I thought maybe we had some kind of missle system or something, i know anti aircraft guns probably wouldn't be able to shoot that high.
But your right, not only is irealnd not a military threat to anyone, we have no strategic importance either (unless we willingly surrendered as a staging area/airbase or something, but thats only in the unlikly event of an all out war with europe). In WW2 at least the germans thought ireland was more a waste of time, not just because it would be costly to hold on to for no particular resource or strategic benfit, but also because it is geographically indefensible.

I don't think they have anything that can shoot down missles in the UK. Unless the americans put it there

Victor

Kaiser_Sma wrote: »

Just out of interest, is there any method in the repulic of ireland of intercepting a russian strategic bomber?

Aer Lingus have a better chance than the Air Corps.

Conor108 wrote: »

The UK has the star wars missile defence system don't they?

Not yet. The longest range SAM in the UK inventory is Rapier.

Tabnabs

On Tuesday night again, the RNoAF scrambled F16's from Bodø to intercept and identify unknown Russian planes, again the planes were Tu-160's.

Interestingly, this year 84 Russian military aircraft have been intercepted near Norway as opposed to 17 last year. It certainly seems like the Russian military machine is back up and running.

Victor

Dyflin wrote: »

Interestingly, this year 84 Russian military aircraft have been intercepted near Norway as opposed to 17 last year. It certainly seems like the Russian military machine is back up and running.

One could joke its like they remembered where they left the keys.

purple'n'gold

Kaiser_Sma wrote: »

Just out of interest, is there any method in the repulic of ireland of intercepting a russian strategic bomber? Obviously not aircraft, but is there any other system that can shoot that high?

No, we couldn,t intercept anything more powerful than a WW2 spitfire. If trouble looms we call the RAF.