Speachplay/declaring hand/Angle shoot?

Macspower

In the current climate of "angle shooting" and a daily thread on the subject he's my first one .

I was in a non Dublin Poker room this week and want to ask opinion on the following....

Senario I arrive for my first time and havn't brought ID but was told to bring it the next night.....

I sat inot a cash game and bought in for 200 but when I saw some decent stacks and the donk quality I quickly topped up to 500 and after about 2 hours or so I was up to about 1500 with the help of my set boating up on the river vs flopped straight....

Atmosphere between me and this player was not good after this... he spent next 10 mins telling the player next to him that I was a donk and how could I call as I should have known he had the Str8..... BTW I did know he had it but couldn't fold after putting in half my stack... anyway not important.... was well chuffed with my donk status..

anyway I'm going to stick to the facts and give factual short version only...

he has about 750 or so i more than cover

He makes it 10 from mid position and I make it 40 with AK from the button

he is the only caller

flop comes J108

he check calls my c-bet of 70

Ok now I'm done with the hand unless I improve

turn brings a beautiful Q.... and he check raises me to 250

Here is where the fun starts.... Anyone that knows me or have played with me would see through this in a milisec but anyway I go into tank and give it some hollywood mumbling to myself about not being able to fold...

I then say to myself (but out loud) I can't fold AA here and then I ship it all in saying exact words " if you have a 9 you have a 9"

He has the expected K9 and insta calls saying "I have better then a 9 I have K9"

next mistake of mine..... I instantly turn over my nuts..... and player goes nuts... then the table goes nuts!!

All feckin nuts if you ask me.... anyway floor is called and the player and the table protest to him about my play...... mentions of misdeclaring, cheating, speach play are all heard and it's hard to get a word in...

I prob should have waitied till the river to show but slowrolling would have been added to my already growing list of offences.....

I'll update later on what happened from there... but more interested at this stage about my action.....

Slash/ED

Absolutely nothing wrong there whatsoever, though as it happens the speech play was hardly needed I doubt he was folding anyway

Macspower

Slash/ED wrote: »

Absolutely nothing wrong there whatsoever, though as it happens the speech play was hardly needed I doubt he was folding anyway

agreed... I didn't think he was this strong though.....

J9/QJ were all in his range as well.... he couldn't get his money in quick enough

The Al Lad

Macspower wrote: »

agreed... I didn't think he was this strong though.....

J9/QJ were all in his range as well.... he couldn't get his money in quick enough

he wouldn't be complaining if he won the hand, thats for sure,

you declared you had aces which was a lie, which is allowed

nh sir

connie147

Thats not angleshooting. Thats simply very good play. WP macs.

Free$$$$$

Slash/ED wrote: »

Absolutely nothing wrong there whatsoever, though as it happens the speech play was hardly needed I doubt he was folding anyway

In fact the speech play to a more experienced player would lead to only one conclusion STONE COLD NUTz....

tbh Pausing for 3 mins telling yourself your hand and then reraising all in??

Just one other point you might want to watch who you do this against I can see why someone might take offence....

The etiquette in poker is that it is ok to lie if you are asked a direct question but volunteered information should be the truth. But nothing against the rules (There is no rule against slow rolling too but you won't win any friends by doing it )

Macspower

Free$$$$$ wrote: »

In fact the speech play to a more experienced player would lead to only one conclusion STONE COLD NUTz....

tbh Pausing for 3 mins telling yourself your hand and then reraising all in??

if someone did that to me I'd instafold...

I though my hand was very face up.... but then I knew these guys could see nothing only their own 2 cards

RoundTower

I think it's fine, you should be careful though as some places don't allow this at all. I definitely wouldn't try this in England.

Primewise

or in the sporting emporium ; ) no speechplay allowed!

i wonder what the ruling would be there..


for the case in question I think your speechplay should be acceptable, its all part of poker

hatedajacks

I have to say Paul I wouldnt be happy if i was on the other end either. I am surprised everyone thinks this okay. I am more of tourney player but i dont think thats important. I aint saying i would fall for it by the way but I would have looked at u in a very diff light if I was the player involved. Kev

Mr.Plough

wp

cooker3

Wp, I think it would be beyond stupid for any place to ban that sort of speechplay. All part of the game imo

TommyGunne

wp nh

David Michael

I prefer to say " I couldn't" lay down xx here.

Makes it a much greyer area as I am making a comment on the hand rather than a statement. When the sh1t hit the fan I came out shining

"A body would be mental to lay down xx here" etc

Ambiguity FTW

Well played btw.

RoadSweeper

nothing wrong here

ionapaul

I wouldn't be impressed if I were sitting across from you but what I really REALLY want to hear is how the bit about being asked for ID earlier in the night ties into the rest of the story.... I suspect some crazy shenanigans, nay I demand some crazy shenanigans from the owners of the place! Maybe I'm reading too much into your providing of this currently unrelevant detail

sickpuppy

Mac why all the messing?
If you think he has the 9 which im sure u do just bet.
no need for declaring i have aa bad manners i think
if he has the 9 you get his stack anyway i think
it is also your first night in the place by alienating the regulars you are not doing yourself any favours
ina small clique like card room i can see a ruling which is not in your favour
i dunno about misdeclaring as the cards speak but i think its bad form from you and if i was the villain i would be very pissed off.
You made abollix out of him on front of his probable friends a blow in and all id say he was looking for blood.

RoadSweeper

sickpuppy wrote: »

Mac why all the messing?
If you think he has the 9 which im sure u do just bet.
no need for declaring i have aa bad manners i think
if he has the 9 you get his stack anyway i think
it is also your first night in the place by alienating the regulars you are not doing yourself any favours
ina small clique like card room i can see a ruling which is not in your favour
i dunno about misdeclaring as the cards speak but i think its bad form from you and if i was the villain i would be very pissed off.
You made abollix out of him on front of his probable friends a blow in and all id say he was looking for blood.

Did you play live poker?

Macs just played the game. Outplayed yer man.

sickpuppy

Yes ive played live poker Macs asked for opinions so i gave him one.
He can probably outplay this player without misdeclaring his hand.
He has probably alienated himself from this club too which there was no need to do.
The standard is probably worse than dublin card rooms so why make yourself a target on your first night in the club? just play your cards and rake in the chips
Macs i think made a mistake and in hindsight im betting he wouldnt do it again.

thechamp87

where is this place? answer in pm please so i can take full advantage alone!!

Flipper

Agree with Roundtower. I'm not a fan of it but you're not doing anything wrong. I'd defo be pretty odd over it! You could end up doing it to the wrong person and that might not end well...

califano

Primewise wrote: »

or in the sporting emporium ; ) no speechplay allowed!

lol. under penalty of what?. because ive seen people being warned plenty but ive never seen anyone penalised for it which makes it a nonsense rule.

HUSH HUSH

hatedajacks wrote: »

I have to say Paul I wouldnt be happy if i was on the other end either. I am surprised everyone thinks this okay. I am more of tourney player but i dont think thats important. I aint saying i would fall for it by the way but I would have looked at u in a very diff light if I was the player involved. Kev

I'd have to agree. The spirit of poker is that if you are asked a question directly you may answer it as you see fit. Information that you volunteer should be truthful.

Play in America and you will see all these kind of tricks. Pausing, Then Cursing About How Unlucky the flop has been, And Then Reraising. It slows the game down alot if you have two or three characters at the same table who will be doing it. In the long run you will actually win more without using these tricks.

Clubs where they ban speechplay would have limited this person who spoke to only be able to call for the rest of the hand ( the same rule as if you had exposed your hand ). They used to have this rule in either the Merrion or the Fitz at one stage ( it could have been the Jackpot in the last millennium )

But like slow rolling this kind of play will definitely "Win Friends And Influence People In The Long Run" and if it was the first time in a club you'd really want to be sure of who you are dealing with because if you did this to the wrong person you could end up on the receiving end of physical violence

Macspower

ok here's the rest of the story.... I've decided to leave the club unnamed and also stick just to the facts and leave my own opinions out of it so you make your own judgement on it...

Well spotted abotut the ID...... also HUSH HUSH has it pretty right too

Ok Sickpuppy is right in a way as well... I really didn't need to do it and hindsight is a great thing.... As regards the club I was never there before and have no desire to go back ( and prob wouldn't be welcome anyway....)

anyway things get a bit out of hand...... the Floor manager came over and the player protested and the table all were backing him up.... eventually that got things calmed down and asked the dealer for his version and the dealer told him what happened but not really in the way it happened.... The manager was told that I said I have AA and shoved my stack in... which is not actually what happened and make s a difference IMO...but anyway a ruling was made and in light of the situation and based on the info provided to him it was probably not too bad in hindsight but at the time I wasn't happy...

!st ruling was that I misdeclared my hand but I made the point that I wanted to see his rules on the misdeclaring hands as as far as I was aware it is a 5 card draw rule and not one of holdem as the cards speak...but he made a second ruling based on no speach play which he later showed me in the house rules..... ruling was that I could only call that street and i still had the option to bet on the river if I wanted to do so....

So I didn't do any more betting an the existing pot was awarded to me.. I left about a round later and had a serious arguement with the manager regarding his ruling and he refused to cash me out until I came back with some ID.... he eventually did cash me out after a lot of pressure........

In hindsight I could have saved myself a lot of trouble by just shoving all in and he calls and i win.... no drama and no story..... At the time I felt I didn't do anything wrong and didn't have the opp on as strong a hand as he had.... although was pretty sure he had a 9....... I didn't actually misdeclare my hand liekt he TD was told, but I did mention AA when I was having a chat with myself.... but the exact words I said as i pushed was "if you have a 9 you have a 9"

opinions? I would like honest opinions and if I'm wrong please tell me...

anyway lesson learned!!!

58o

Idiotic ruling. name and shame the club please.

I see no problem with your speechplay here. Some people seem to think speech play is against the spirit of the "gentlemans gam,e2 that is poker. Cop on.
Poker is a game of misinformation and deception. Speechplay is not cheating, end of. Some people are far too sensitive and want their hands held through everything.

sickpuppy

I dont think that speech play in itself is very bad.
However Mac said he was ina small club outside of dublin.
Do people not know the bad reactions you can get in small town ireland?
Example you cop off with some girl locals scream blue murder your taking our women fight ensues with half of said redneck town baying for blood,
Macs was in club where he knew no one yet he makes a fool of one regular who could be drunk a psycho or whatever,
when a ruling was asked for it was always going to be ahometown decison so to speak whos cardroom manager going to support?his regulars or a tourist.
Most players here play in nice fair cardrooms se fitz jackpot etc where most people know each other and good card room managers.
Doing what he did Macs could have got a slap or worse whether he deserved it or not is irrelevant he should not have let this situation a rise.
I also think itw as out of charatacter as he is agood guy at the tables.

breadmonkey

Agree with 58o. Why not just expose the place?

RoundTower

just name and shame the place. Some small cardrooms are well run and fair and transparent, some are like a glorified home game where the owner is mates with all the regulars, plays in the game, and makes his own rules as he goes along. It's nice to know what you are getting before you go there.

cardshark202

Yeah makes no sense to protect the club here.

FutureGuy

Stating "I can't fold AA here" does not mean you have AA, you are simply stating a possible course of action based on a hand you may or may not have, gievn the cards on the table.


Stating "if you have a 9 you have a 9" does not mean you are beaten by a hand with a 9.

WP on both accounts. He's an idiot to fall for it.

As for the club, I would love to know where it was, but I would be very careful about naming it. It's your word against *all* of theirs.

Macspower

as regards the club in question..... I decided not to name then for a reason I won't go into right now but I have mailed them to give them a chance to respond here if they wish to do so.

Gillybean72

Macspower wrote: »

as regards the club in question..... I decided not to name then for a reason I won't go into right now but I have mailed them to give them a chance to respond here if they wish to do so.

Personally I dont think what you did was too bad. Pretty funny actually and the guy must have been so peed he fell for it.

The way I read it, the aces thing was more of a talking to youself... so, its up to him to make a read on you and guess if you are bluffing. well played!

CaptainNemo

As you know you didn't need to do the whole hollywood thing.

Given that you've done it, in my opinion the ruling was dead wrong and you were definitely the victim of a favourable ruling given to regulars.

Rossibaby

well played mate,speechplay is the best part of poker and you need to be a great,great player and reader of players to use it to your consistent advantage.favoured the regulars which was a shame you should have explained what happened about you talking to yourself about the aces,the 9s comment was perfect as you shoved and this fish should have known

Mellor

Rossibaby wrote: »

well played mate,speechplay is the best part of poker and you need to be a great,great player and reader of players to use it to your consistent advantage.favoured the regulars which was a shame you should have explained what happened about you talking to yourself about the aces,the 9s comment was perfect as you shoved and this fish should have known

If the "fish" should of known, then the comment is hardly perfect, or even any good.
I think Mac knows how good or bad the comments were from a gameplay POV, and is more looking for opinions on angleshooting and morals

brianmc

Name and shame. I have suspicions but I may be wrong.

califano

Was it Churchill who said "You should never feel at home in someone elses country".

hotspur

Hang on, the club has an explicit written hpuse rule that disallows speechplay, the op broke that rule and he was punished for it. There can be no more obvious violation of a no speechplay rule than saying that you have a hand which you don't.

Are people having a go at the club because they have this rule. or because they enforced it, or the specific way that they enforced it?

Ethically I really dislike the op's behaviour, less so because the other guy was being an ass, but it's still the kind of behaviour that makes some people rather not play live poker. My view on talking during a hand is that if you are not doing it just out of sociability then just shut the f*** up and play poker. I accept that not everyone agrees with that.

The irony is that practically anyone I have ever played poker with who uses this tactic has the psychological nous of a sack of potatoes, and usually tips their hand laughably when they try it.

brianmc

hotspur wrote: »

Hang on, the club has an explicit written hpuse rule that disallows speechplay, the op broke that rule and he was punished for it. There can be no more obvious violation of a no speechplay rule than saying that you have a hand which you don't.

Are people having a go at the club because they have this rule. or because they enforced it, or the specific way that they enforced it?

Ethically I really dislike the op's behaviour, less so because the other guy was being an ass, but it's still the kind of behaviour that makes some people rather not play live poker. My view on talking during a hand is that if you are not doing it just out of sociability then just shut the f*** up and play poker. I accept that not everyone agrees with that.

The irony is that practically anyone I have ever played poker with who uses this tactic has the psychological nous of a sack of potatoes, and usually tips their hand laughably when they try it.

For the record, I agree whole heartedly with all of this. I do think threatening not to cash him out until he brought ID was beyond petty though.

Requiem4adream

hotspur wrote: »

Hang on, the club has an explicit written hpuse rule that disallows speechplay, the op broke that rule and he was punished for it. There can be no more obvious violation of a no speechplay rule than saying that you have a hand which you don't.

Are people having a go at the club because they have this rule. or because they enforced it, or the specific way that they enforced it?

Ethically I really dislike the op's behaviour, less so because the other guy was being an ass, but it's still the kind of behaviour that makes some people rather not play live poker. My view on talking during a hand is that if you are not doing it just out of sociability then just shut the f*** up and play poker. I accept that not everyone agrees with that.

The irony is that practically anyone I have ever played poker with who uses this tactic has the psychological nous of a sack of potatoes, and usually tips their hand laughably when they try it.

I dont think ive ever seen a post of yours that i dont agree with 100%!! Spot on as usual obv....

i know it's part of the game (speechplay* there's no peach in speech ) but i dont think it's in the spirit of the game. It just makes people even more uncomfortable about straying from the safety of their pc and into the Fitz or CHL etc - the majority of people i know play live poker to a) try win a few quid whilst b) having a good night out. The social aspect of it get's severely hurt by these shenanigans, part of the game or not.

Marq

Congratulations, you've just guaranteed that he will fold all one pair hands.

RoundTower

hotspur wrote: »

Hang on, the club has an explicit written hpuse rule that disallows speechplay, the op broke that rule and he was punished for it. There can be no more obvious violation of a no speechplay rule than saying that you have a hand which you don't.

Are people having a go at the club because they have this rule. or because they enforced it, or the specific way that they enforced it?

for having a crap rule, for enforcing it selectively and retrospectively (what would have happened if Macs turned over TT, and missed? The other guy would have got the whole pot), and for the dealer backing up the regular's side of the story. Oh, and for the floorman to make up a rule to justify the ruling he wanted to give, then when challenged on it to find a completely different rule in the book and still give the same ruling. Do you really think this sounds like a well run club?

strewelpeter

Requiem4adream wrote: »

I dont think ive ever seen a post of yours that i dont agree with 100%!! Spot on as usual obv....

.

patmac

I also agree with Hotspur's comments, also I don't get this whole non-Dublin card room thing, just because it is not in Dublin doesn't mean it's automatically a dingey dive run by a guy whose mates and plays with all the locals who's gonna slap ya if try anything too fancy. Another typical Dublin centric view that occurs from time to time here.

Personally I think that was ****ing hilarious Mac . Cheeky though and uncalled for, especially in the location you were in. Your lucky they didn't wait til you left to kick your head in so watch for it in the future. In regards to what you said during the hand - I dont see a problem at all. He should of been smart enough to know you wouldn't give your hand away like that plus he was calling anyway. Speaking during play is one of things that the game was built on and once your not being offensive or giving anyone an advantage there shouldn't be a problem at all.

RoundTower

patmac wrote: »

I also agree with Hotspur's comments, also I don't get this whole non-Dublin card room thing, just because it is not in Dublin doesn't mean it's automatically a dingey dive run by a guy whose mates and plays with all the locals who's gonna slap ya if try anything too fancy. Another typical Dublin centric view that occurs from time to time here.

I'm not from Dublin and I am one of the people who made these comments. In the major cardrooms (think there are 4 decent sized ones in Dublin and one in Cork, but there might be some I don't know about) I have a good idea what to expect from a club, though sometimes I can be surprised. I find the smaller cardrooms throughout the country, including the small ones in Dublin are hit and miss, some are well run and some are definitely going to screw you over as a non regular. All OP said is it is a non-Dublin club, that means it almost certainly a smaller club.

Theresalwaysone

I have my suspicions about this club also.

I dont think the op did anything wrong. Speechplay should be part of the game and be allowed. It adds to the game of LIVE poker more so than takes away from it. I enjoy live poker and the social aspect and if anything I think that the speechplay adds to the social aspect. I agree with Roundtower though with regards to smaller clubs being hit and miss.

A club that I have been to allowed money to be taken off the table to play house games. i.e. A fairly dopey fella decides to take 600 out of his 700(which he won 3 hands previous) stack to cash out/play roulette and come back in with 100.

Mac, would ya send me the name of the club in a PM if you wont announce it?