Fight or flight

cmyk

Couple of questions for the 'seasoned' martial artist here. I started back to Kenpo a few months ago after doing it my teens for a while and am enjoying it. Though it focuses on different aspects, I can see how certain techniques would be applicable to real life SD situations and others not so and its a mix of this practicality/sparring etc that drew me to Kenpo.

My question is, having been in a few 'unavoidable' situations years ago I know that the adrenaline or fear (call it what you like) pretty much took over. I realise there is no way of replicating this fear in a training situation but how do others deal with it, presumably it affects everyone differently also or is there any way to legislate for it at all?

I would be very much a follower of the 'Marc MacYoung' philosophy of real life street defense. I'm stating this purely because I don't want to open a debate of Kenpo v MMA v KM v BJJ etc.

Black Swan

Not sure I'm answering your question, but we train our students with a lot of repetition in SD and TKD sparring over the weeks, months, and years, to where in a sudden situation they will react without thinking; e.g., move, block, counter in combinations. Now if there is a lot of advance lip service and threats, then we advocate distancing yourself from the situation, by trying to talk your way out, or run if appropriate. The legal hassles and potential risk are not worth being macho in a potentially violent confrontation.

cmyk

Yep, you're half answering it alright. It would be a similar scenario with kenpo with regard to repetition of techniques etc. and agreed with 100m sprint technique but I'm talking no other option/way out/talk down.

My real question is would a lot of people really react as they have been taught or freeze/panic in fear?

I guess I remember coming out of that situation having panicked a bit and shaking etc during and after it happened. I've heard there are SD courses that touch on the fear control end of things but do they really work or can it be taught?

john kavanagh

cmyk wrote: »

I realise there is no way of replicating this fear in a training situation

think about it....which situation makes you 'feel' like you're in an adrenaline/fear inducing situation more..

1. hundreds and thousands and millions of repetitions with your friends in the dojo

or

2. dealing with pre-fight nerves, getting ready to fight in a competition under a set of rules which most closely resemble a street fight while remaining safe

learn to feel comfortable in your non-comfort zone and all this training for street disolves away, stops even being a thought....at least that was the case for me personally and for the many many people i've spoken with at length on this topic

cmyk

john kavanagh wrote: »

which most closely resemble a street fight while remaining safe

See you say it yourself there "while remaining safe". There's no referee in a street situation.

I'm gonna put my hands up and say that I haven't actually done any competition fighting so maybe thats the answer I was looking for.

BobbyOLeary

I've never really been in a SD situation (thankfully) so I can't really comment on the nerves and the adrenaline dump experienced there. I know from competition sparring that while theres a large nerve/fear/adrenaline sensation before and just at the beginning of a fight it almost instantly disappears.

Is this true in SD situations? I mean do you suddenly regress to how you trained and just do the job you're there to do (like in a fight)?

john kavanagh

cmyk wrote: »

See you say it yourself there "while remaining safe". There's no referee in a street situation.

true, but its a lot closer to a street fight than say kata or points fighting tournaments which seem to make up a large % of martial arts competition.

you can do all the scenario training in the world, get people to dress up in michelin men suits screaming obscenities 'just like the real world' but your brain still knows its make believe. step on the mat at a level that you can compete at (there are many levels available in MMA) and win, lose or draw you will learn a lot about yourself.

its funny a lot of the guys (not all i repeat not all i repeat not all) who train to be functional in a physical 'street' fight cant overcome their fear and fight in something resembling a street fight but safe - but think it'll all magically come together when it hits the fan and their fighting for their life against multiple opponents with dogs and weapons etc etc

why? well the guy teaching is ex special forces, delta squad, seal, navy killer.....maybe thats true but he CANT give you the experience of dealing with uncomfortable feelings of adrenaline rush, fear hormones etc etc. thats something only YOU can earn. no weekend course, no pill, no quick answer will do it for you. geoff thompson talks at length about leaving your comfort zone....people read that, know what it means....but choose chasing the next certificate instead.

if i was interested personally in preparing for the 'inevitable' killer street attack (i've been lucky for the last 30yrs but anyway) i'd be fighting MMA every weekend. it'd have you 100% prepared for the nerves, shakes and fears that comes with an actual violent physical encounter - which most people will say is by far the hardest part. (if anyone reading has had a bunch of full rules MMA fights and disagrees i'd love to hear....if you havent its impossible to know)

john kavanagh

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

I know from competition sparring that while theres a large nerve/fear/adrenaline sensation before and just at the beginning of a fight it almost instantly disappears.

matt thornton uses the analogy of standing on a high diving board over a pool to describe this. while standing on the edge waiting to jump all the negative thoughts go through your head - all the fear leaves once you jump (once it starts) then your swimming (training kicks in). hopefully your not a 'dry land' swimmer and can actually swim

geoff thompson has some great stuff explaining this too - i remember seeing him wearing a t-shirt that was a play on the logo

NO FEAR - but instead he had
KnoW Fear - bit of a play on Sun Tzu's advice to know yourself

how can you know fear if you dont regularily put yourself there?

cmyk

Sorry John, I read your post originally wrong, I thought you were referring to points fighting. I do think I need to give the MMA a trial run at some stage.

Was going to ease myself into it with the Kenpo. I like the idea of cross training, but time is the problem.

To add to my original question then, if you get your adrenaline rush from fear or the shakes, when youre fighting in the competition, does it get easier or go away as you gain experience/confidence?

john kavanagh

cmyk wrote: »

To add to my original question then, if you get your adrenaline rush from fear or the shakes, when youre fighting in the competition, does it get easier or go away as you gain experience/confidence?

well for most people its the adrenaline dump that leads to the shakes and feelings of fear/doubt etc.

well it never goes away but by continually putting yourself in situations outside your comfort zone that brings on these unpleasant feelings you will get acustomed to it and learn to deal with it better.

cmyk

Thanks John, that was pretty much the answer I was looking for. I had planned on looking at the MMA side of things at some stage in the future.

My problem is I dont really have the time to dedicate to cross training. My basic plan being to gain some competancy in kenpo to avoid the jack of all trades methodology.

john kavanagh

actually thats back to front.....but i'll leave you to it

good luck with your training and enjoy!

cmyk

Thanks John, what did you mean by back to front though?

kravist

john kavanagh wrote: »

true, but its a lot closer to a street fight than say kata or points fighting tournaments which seem to make up a large % of martial arts competition.

you can do all the scenario training in the world, get people to dress up in michelin men suits screaming obscenities 'just like the real world' but your brain still knows its make believe. step on the mat at a level that you can compete at (there are many levels available in MMA) and win, lose or draw you will learn a lot about yourself.

its funny a lot of the guys (not all i repeat not all i repeat not all) who train to be functional in a physical 'street' fight cant overcome their fear and fight in something resembling a street fight but safe - but think it'll all magically come together when it hits the fan and their fighting for their life against multiple opponents with dogs and weapons etc etc

why? well the guy teaching is ex special forces, delta squad, seal, navy killer.....maybe thats true but he CANT give you the experience of dealing with uncomfortable feelings of adrenaline rush, fear hormones etc etc. thats something only YOU can earn. no weekend course, no pill, no quick answer will do it for you. geoff thompson talks at length about leaving your comfort zone....people read that, know what it means....but choose chasing the next certificate instead.

if i was interested personally in preparing for the 'inevitable' killer street attack (i've been lucky for the last 30yrs but anyway) i'd be fighting MMA every weekend. it'd have you 100% prepared for the nerves, shakes and fears that comes with an actual violent physical encounter - which most people will say is by far the hardest part. (if anyone reading has had a bunch of full rules MMA fights and disagrees i'd love to hear....if you havent its impossible to know)

I agree..but also bear in mind..those same nerves one experiences pre fight are very similar to for example pre Gaelic/soccer rugby match! etc!!

arybvtcw0eolkf

kravist wrote: »

I agree..but also bear in mind..those same nerves one experiences pre fight are very similar to for example pre Gaelic/soccer rugby match! etc!!

I disagree.

Street fight, or competition, its ALOT more personal than that. But I think you'd have to have played team games like GAA/Rugby etc and then also have experienced stepping into the ring or onto the mat and going one-on-one with an opponent who should (in a perfect world) at least be your equal to appricate the difference.

One of you is going to lose, and do it on a very personal basis and in front of friends & family, plus your opponents friends, family, training buddies etc.

pearsquasher

Before i chime in I just want to say that I think sparring - stiriking/grappling etc is excellent as a drill and puts a lot of technique under a microscope...once the technique is learned in various stages of dynanism...

... but......


In nearly 20 years of MA and the same being an average Dublin dweller I've seen on or had heard direct stories from close friends of on average about 3 altercations a year... including ears been bitten off, stabbing attemps, actual stabbings, bottling, multiples etc.

Of these maybe more than half were sudden-strike punches or kicks that went no further... the victim was cought off guard either by suprise or from a purposefull escalated buildup of harassment..got struck and were left sore. i.e. the perp was angry and wanted to take it out on someone. Grevious bodily harm was not the aim. ALL involved alcohol on one side or the other or both.

The rest were "fights". In every case one or more of the fighters could have decided to run away at any time but decided to stay and fight.
ALL involved alcohol except for some school fights in the 80's that turned nasty (dogs got involved!) and one case where my boss decided to corner an armed robber AFTER the money had been disgarded ... and got stabbed in the stomach by a desperate criminal for it.

In every single scenario, the ability to fight for a 3 minutes round in order to submit/knockout someone seems like the last thing any of the victims would have used or needed. It just doesn't add up in my mind that training to fight is a good self defence tactic. It also doesn't add up that young male athletic types will be the victims of random assaults... where self defence is most applicable.

Where learning to *fight* does add up I would think would be with an LEO or some types of security guard.... but not in a cage/rage type training.... A lot will be on the job learning over time suplemented by specific training - say on handcuff/truncheon use. LEO's should always have backup and the moral right to inflict damage when necessary too. A good freind of mine is a mental health nurse in an institute for the criminally insane and she's learned some fantastic locks on the job that work and she's not a fighter in any way.

This all boils down to not technical ability ... as i know sparring helps that a lot......but a mindset. Fighting, competition etc to me can fog over the ideas of disengaging, running away, not getting cought up in a struggle etc. Sure adrenelin rushes are involved but there's a massively higher degree of intent involved when someones actually, desperately trying to assault you that I've never felt in sparring (did a lot about 15 years ago).

I still like good rumble on the mats though but boy can I disenage from conflict before you can say "float like a butterfly"....and i often practice that itself. Hey I'm not saying your average MMAer will get stuck in a fight "cos thats all he knows" but why train as if you are stuck when there's so much more to work on outside of that?

john kavanagh

john kavanagh wrote: »

(if anyone reading has had a bunch of full rules MMA fights and disagrees i'd love to hear....if you havent its impossible to know)

I agree..but also bear in mind..those same nerves one experiences pre fight are very similar to for example pre Gaelic/soccer rugby match! etc!!

yes of course, its the exact same hormone (epinephrine) however your brain releases it in quantities it deems neccessary to deal with the stressful (fight or flight) situation it perceives. there is a big difference to the 'hit' you'll get preparing for a match and leading up to a fight.

i've played school rugby to a pretty high level and i've also fought in front of 5000 people....very different feeling. one much more resembled the feelings i got leading up to something 'kicking off' while on the door ie a fight.

cowzerp

kravist wrote: »

I agree..but also bear in mind..those same nerves one experiences pre fight are very similar to for example pre Gaelic/soccer rugby match! etc!!

I've boxed, fought MMA, Gaelic football, soccer, and been in a number of street fights also unfortunately,None for ages thank god, with all my competitive boxing matches i learned to control the nerves and the same applies for MMA.when it comes down to it its harder to fight a trained mma fighter or boxer than some idiot on the street..

I never experienced nerves in any other sports as there is no fear element and in most there is a whole team taking the loss and been watched too, in fight sports its lonely in there its you and the fella who wants to beat you up-just like in a 1 on 1 street fight..

whenever anyone started a fight on me i'd stay composed and it was just like fighting a really crap boxer, even the supposed hard men that i've been unfortunate to have start on me because i was composed.

arybvtcw0eolkf

john kavanagh wrote: »

. one much more resembled the feelings i got leading up to something 'kicking off' while on the door ie a fight.

How do you deal with those feelings?..

Sometimes I've almost froze, finding myself fighting the adrenline, I can't talk and just wishing for it to kick off, knowing that I'll be grand once it goes.

Most times however its like 'yea this is sweet, I'm ready for this'. But there's been no real differences in the two scenarios but just how I dealth with them at the time. But still the nerves, without the fear ... (hope that makes sense).

cmyk

Mairt wrote: »

Sometimes I've almost froze, finding myself fighting the adrenline

This was what I was trying to describe in my OP.

John still interested to know what you meant by back to front? Did you mean it should be mma first?

john kavanagh

best i can do is offer you free month of beginner classes - if it doesnt make sense at end of that then i've no way of explaining it

cmyk

Sent you a pm John

Black Swan

Only once did I have to defend myself in the street. It was dark, he cornered me so I couldn't run, and he was big, but fortunately drunk. I didn't think, just punched and kicked like crazy, and he went down. I had the shakes afterwards. But one thing for certain, if I hadn't trained in TKD and SD for years, I would have been a victim that night like so many others.

Baggio...

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

I didn't think, just punched and kicked like crazy, and he went down.

Nice one - Makes sense to me... Just attack him until the threat is gone.

Roper

john kavanagh wrote: »

best i can do is offer you free month of beginner classes - if it doesnt make sense at end of that then i've no way of explaining it

Eh, em I also, eh, don't know what you mean John. But I'll settle for a free t-shirt or a car sticker or something you don't have to put up with me for a month.:D

Colm_OReilly

History rewards the generalist and punishes the specialist.

The idea of focusing on something to the exclusivity of all others stunts your growth.

Roper

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

History rewards the generalist and punishes the specialist.

If by history you mean recorded history, that statement doesn't have a lot of meaning, but if I could extract one it would be that recorded history rewards the powerful, who are usually specialists.

FiannaGym.com

Personally I find doing loads of reps of eye gouges in the mirror really helps. Also I've done a couple of seminars on "switching it on" "when the time comes".

Nah, training with dudes who are legitemately skilled, bigger and stronger than me (read:everyone) and having fresh guys come at you, regularly helps a great deal. Combine that with getting in the ring and you tend to be fairly calm whatever the situation.

MMA is different to any other sport, even sky diving. You have only evolved to respond to a variety of situations, fighting (as an apex perditor) is pretty much the code red of human responses. So preparing to get in the ring makes all of your body prepair.

After you've done shark bait with Kav for a while and gotten in the ring, fighting a thug on the street becomes less of an issue. While still being frightfully aware of your own inabilities.

Most importantly, practice sprinting regularly... If you KNOW, I mean really know you could out run any attacker street fights become, at worse, a prelude to a game of chasing you will definately win.

Peace

Black Swan

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

History rewards the generalist and punishes the specialist.

The idea of focusing on something to the exclusivity of all others stunts your growth.

A bit of an ecological fallacy, but I'll buy it! In our dojang we instruct both TKD and SD to all students. In addition to this, I've been a student of sword for about 2 years now and will continue (God willing and the creek doesn't rise). After a few more years (should I master sword), not sure what I will take up next, but I am open.

john kavanagh

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

In our dojang we instruct both TKD and SD to all students.

as a matter of interest whats the difference

also good luck mastering sword

silat liam

john kavanagh wrote: »

as a matter of interest whats the difference

Lol

Check the thread "Looking for self defence classes in Dublin". It has some good comments.

Off hand my view John TKD is an olympic sport and the other is about defending yourself, they have different focus, but also have some common ground. In the same way MMA is primary a sport but also has some good self defence aspects to. By focusing on both you are giving the student a good round education.MMA /UFC Fighting in the ring is not the same as the street, but changing a few things for the street, giving some good advice can make it very functional for self defence..

There are many ways for people to achieve their goals in Martial Arts, it great having all these choices. There no one system has it all, some are better at some things than others. We shouldn't have to keep trying to prove ourselves right or top dog. We all enjoy, doing our own martial art, why is thats not enough? Let people experiences the different flavours, in the end they will do something they enjoy, wheither thats fighting in the ring, going to a core self defence seminar, doing an art form, for its beauty, we all have different desires and needs, and we based our choices on that.

At times it seems that any new beginner to this forum who ask a question is like jumping into a pool of piranhas. We all trying to get our two cents, saying why what we do is more healthy and better than what others do.

Right across this forum we have amazing amount of talent from professional fighters, ring fighters, fitness experts, self defence experts, traditional martial artists, all have huge knowledge and experiences. By working together maybe we can tap into the 99% of the population who sit in front of the tv and get them to train, instead of trying to score cheap points.. anyway just my view

Liam

john kavanagh

silat liam wrote: »

There are many ways for people to achieve their goals in Martial Arts.... We all enjoy, doing our own martial art, why is thats not enough?.....At times it seems that any new beginner to this forum who ask a question is like jumping into a pool of piranhas. We all trying to get our two cents, saying why what we do is more healthy and better than what others do.... instead of trying to score cheap points.. anyway just my view

is this just a general post? coz on this thread somebody asked for people's opinions on how to deal with massive doses of epinephrine...from experience i gave some advice...as did others.

no piranha attack, no scoring cheap points....no 'my style better than yours'.

silat liam

Hi John

That part of my post was sorry abit general, and just a follow on,from your question where you were ask Blue Lagoon what were the differences between TKD and Self Defence as they teach both? I just try to give a general view, I'm sure Blue Lagoon will give a much better insight. I was just a bit surprize you asked that question,thats all, no offence intended. I think its very common for most Martial Arts to practise both.

john kavanagh

well i've not done TKD so did not want to be presumptious. i'm interested to hear from someone who does as to what the difference is between it and SD...in their opinion

Black Swan

john kavanagh wrote: »

as a matter of interest whats the difference

Hi John! Sorry for the delay. Difference? Emphasis, mostly.

The rules of engagement are different and changing in emphasis. Since the Olympics adopted TKD in 1988, there has been a gradual shift towards TKD becoming more of a sport, especially when governed by Kukkiwon (WTF). Rules of fair play have become increasingly more important, which we know, is very different from SD street fighting. Although you may still use a powerful roundhouse kick in both, targeting above and below the belt differs significantly between mat and street.

Further, complex kicks are becoming stressed more in Olympic rules sparring (e.g., fast reverse spinning kicks to the head), where such a kick is not always practical in the street. Leg sweeps we practice in SD are not allowed by WTF rules, or elbow strikes, or groin blows or grabs (against males).

Although our city is safe, the nextdoor city is not, having thousands of gang members. So we feel an obligation to balance our instruction hours between TKD and SD.

Prepping for fear or the rush in TKD is probably best simulated in tournament, although the above emphasized differences are noted. We encourage all our coloured belts to compete, with it being a requirement at the higher levels. But no matter how much you simulate in TKD or SD, you will never really know how well prepared you are until a real situation occurs? We have anecdotal evidence from our students in the streets, with mixed results. Some have faired better than expected, while others have not.

john kavanagh wrote:

also good luck mastering sword

Thanks! But sometimes I want to scream after going through the 4 steps of Iaijutsu thousands of times over the past 2 years! I now draw and cut, clean, and resheath in my sleep! And I have years to go... One thing I am thankful for. My swordmaster has never lectured us on bushido. We are to learn it through action, not words (I get enough hot air at university!).