Question about annual leave

Leeby

Hi all,

I was wondering if you could help me with something.

In my company all the secretaries (7 of us) have 20 days annual leave per year. 3 of these days have to be taken at Christmas (from 27th Dec) so that only leaves us 17 days to do what we want with. This is written into our contracts which we've all signed so that's fine.

My problem is that my boss has decided this week that he couldn't be bothered being open on Christmas eve as it's a Monday and he doesn't see the point in opening for one day during the Christmas period. So he's said "we're not opening on Christmas eve so that day can be taken out of your annual leave or out of your pay, it's up to you". Can he do this? I'm able and very willing to work on Christmas eve but he's decided that he doesn't want to work it so we have to sacrifice annual leave or pay to suit him. Is this even legally allowed? I don't mind having to take the other 3 days, that's in my contract but this one isn't and I can't afford to lose my holiday days or go a day without pay.

information

Leeby wrote: »

Can he do this? I'm able and very willing to work on Christmas eve but he's decided that he doesn't want to work it so we have to sacrifice annual leave or pay to suit him. Is this even legally allowed?

Your boss is entitled to decide when you take your holidays
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/leave-and-holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays

seamus

Leeby wrote: »

Is this even legally allowed?

It's legally required for your employer to decide when you take holidays. They must take due regard for your family commitments and provide sufficient notice (at least 4 weeks), but what your employer is doing is perfectly legal and is being done by thousands of other companies this year. Expect most businesses to be closed (with the exception of shops obviously) this Chrimbo Eve.

Leeby

information wrote: »

Your boss is entitled to decide when you take your holidays
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/employment-rights-and-conditions/leave-and-holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays

Yeah I saw that. But I have no annual leave left to take this year so he'd either be taking next years holidays (which according to that website is something he needs me to agree to) or else he'll be taking a days pay off me (which I don't know if he's allowed to do).

Also, I've come across this bit of information as I'm the one who takes note of everyones annual leave days (I'm not HR or anything, we're a small company, we don't have a HR department but I'm the office managers secretary so he gets me to look after this). According to the website above, you have to be given a months notice, nobody in the company has been told about this so far, does this mean if they don't tell us by the 24th November then they can't make us take the day off our annual leave?

seamus

Leeby wrote: »

Yeah I saw that. But I have no annual leave left to take this year so he'd either be taking next years holidays (which according to that website is something he needs me to agree to) or else he'll be taking a days pay off me (which I don't know if he's allowed to do).

Interesting conundrum. I'm assuming that the annual leave periods are January - December?

My gut says that provided that you have sufficient notice, he *can* close the business for the day and you lose a day's pay. In the eyes of the law, the business let/told you to take all of your previous holidays, so they cannot penalise you simply because you have none left. That's their problem. My gut however still says that they have the right to close for a day and not pay the staff. Someone else may know.

Also, I've come across this bit of information as I'm the one who takes note of everyones annual leave days (I'm not HR or anything, we're a small company, we don't have a HR department but I'm the office managers secretary so he gets me to look after this). According to the website above, you have to be given a months notice, nobody in the company has been told about this so far, does this mean if they don't tell us by the 24th November then they can't make us take the day off our annual leave?

As with all things, it's not necessarily a case of "cannot make us", just that if he went ahead and deducted the leave, each employee individually would have to make a complaint against your employer and have a judgement returned which granted them their leave back.

As annual leave management is your duty (unofficially or otherwise), it would be negligent of you to not mention this legislation to your superior and he could validly take disciplinary action against you if you didn't say it.

Eoin

seamus wrote: »

It's legally required for your employer to decide when you take holidays. They must take due regard for your family commitments and provide sufficient notice (at least 4 weeks), but what your employer is doing is perfectly legal and is being done by thousands of other companies this year. Expect most businesses to be closed (with the exception of shops obviously) this Chrimbo Eve.

As you alluded to, I think the spirit of the law in this case is to ensure that employees get the time off they need, but the letter of it allows them to make the employees fit in with what suits the company.

I'd say what the boss is doing is completely legal, if a pain in the arse for the OP. It could be a lot more expensive for them to open for a day that will generate no business than for the OP to take an unpaid day though.

Leeby wrote:

But I have no annual leave left to take this year so he'd either be taking next years holidays (which according to that website is something he needs me to agree to) or else he'll be taking a days pay off me (which I don't know if he's allowed to do).

Another way to look at that is that your boss has already allowed you to take leave that you have not earned, so he was in fact doing you a favour in the first place.

Beano

I dont see how forcing someone to take an unpaid days leave can be seen as doing them a favour. Its no secret what day christmas eve falls on and management should have thought about this before everybody took their annual leave.

Eoin

Beano wrote: »

I dont see how forcing someone to take an unpaid days leave can be seen as doing them a favour. Its no secret what day christmas eve falls on and management should have thought about this before everybody took their annual leave.

That's not what I was saying. If the OP has already used up his/her annual leave for the year, then it means that he/she has taken a day that they have not earned yet. 20 days a year is 1.66 days per month, and I don't know if you are entitled to them before you have worked uo the time.

Leeby

eoin_s wrote: »

That's not what I was saying. If the OP has already used up his/her annual leave for the year, then it means that he/she has taken a day that they have not earned yet. 20 days a year is 1.66 days per month, and I don't know if you are entitled to them before you have worked uo the time.

Contract only says you get 20 days holiday a year, 3 of which have to be taken at Christmas. So I've only taken 17 days holidays so far, this is less than the 18.33 or whatever it is that I've earnt up til the end of November. The reason I have none left is because 3 of them are already set aside for Christmas. So I haven't taken any holidays I haven't earned.

Leeby

seamus wrote: »

As annual leave management is your duty (unofficially or otherwise), it would be negligent of you to not mention this legislation to your superior and he could validly take disciplinary action against you if you didn't say it.

I see your point but I don't manage annual leave. When people take days off, my manager (who I no longer work for, and therefore don't do this anymore) asks me to make a note of it in the calendar so he can keep track of how many days people have taken. So besides noting it down for him, it has absolutely nothing to do with me, especially now that I've moved to another section. I was never officially or unofficially managing annual leave.

seamus

eoin_s wrote: »

As you alluded to, I think the spirit of the law in this case is to ensure that employees get the time off they need, but the letter of it allows them to make the employees fit in with what suits the company.

I think it's one of the few fairly robust and fair laws that we have, the spirit of the law protects both employer and employee. A lot of the power falls on the employer's side, but then the employer has more to lose than the employee.

If the employee got to decide when they take their holidays, then some places could be deserted come mid-term breaks and the summer sun - many businesses would be crippled and collapse.

The employee still retains a certain amount of ability to reasonably object to annual leave (if it doesn't suit family obligations) but because many businesses are seasonal in nature, the only fair way is to allow the employer to decide when their employees may or may not take leave.

Eoin

Being told you can't take time off at a certain time is one thing, but it's a bit of a pain being told when you have to use your own leave. It's happened to friends of mine as well, as it's cost efficient for a company to shut up shop over Christmas, but I think they got an extra few days per year to compensate for this.

The OP is getting the legal minimum annual leave (presuming it's full time employment), so 20% of his/her leave has to be taken when the company says.

Leeby

eoin_s wrote: »

Being told you can't take time off at a certain time is one thing, but it's a bit of a pain being told when you have to use your own leave. It's happened to friends of mine as well, as it's cost efficient for a company to shut up shop over Christmas, but I think they got an extra few days per year to compensate for this.

The OP is getting the legal minimum annual leave (presuming it's full time employment), so 20% of his/her leave has to be taken when the company says.

Yeah it's full time employment so I'm on the legal minimum holidays. I think I'm just going to wait until my boss says to me that he wants me to take Christmas eve out of my annual leave and I'll just say "hang on, I've no days left and can't afford to lose pay or days out of next year" and if he says tough luck, you have to take it when I say, I'll say "surely you can only make me take certain days out of this years leave or at least give me more notice than this" if concedes then well and good but if he insists I'd say I'll just have to go with it, I don't want to be the one rocking the boat!