Yellow Box Junction

Glenman

If I are approaching a T-junction with a busy road and I intend to turn right. If the traffic is slow moving and bumper to bumper and if the yellow box junction is vacant as it should be, can I just drive into the box junction and stop in it (presuming there is no traffic coming from the right of course) even if the person in the car next to enter the box junction as not waved me on or let me out.

deman

Glenman wrote: »

If I are approaching a T-junction with a busy road and I intend to turn right. If the traffic is slow moving and bumper to bumper and if the yellow box junction is vacant as it should be, can I just drive into the box junction and stop in it (presuming there is no traffic coming from the right of course) even if the person in the car next to enter the box junction as not waved me on or let me out.

No. You can't enter a Yellow Grid unless your exit is clear. It is illegal to stop on the grid.

Glenman

Can i not stop in it when turning right like I described though? Isn't that what its for?

p15574

Yes, you can. You can stop on a yellow box if you are turning right

bonkey

From my understanding of the rule...

you can stop on a yellow box if you are turning right and either one of the following conditions is true

- oncoming traffic prevents you from completing the turn
- other traffic also waiting in teh box to turn right prevents you from completing the turn.

In both cases, it is still the case that the exit must be clear.

In other words, if the box is free, but traffic isn't going into it becuse the exits aren't clear....this alone does not permit you to drive into the box and wait for yoru exit to free up regardless of whether you are turning left, right, or travelling straight on.

Be warned...I did qualify this by saying its my understanding of the rule. I may well be mistaken.

p15574

I think you're right, Bonkey...from the Rules of the Road:
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/8342-0.pdf

BOX JUNCTIONS
“Box junctions” (which consist of patterns of criss-cross yellow lines)-require that you must not enter the box area unless you can clear it without stopping. However, it is permitted to enter the box when you propose to make a right turn and are prevented from doing so only by oncoming traffic or vehicles waiting to make a right turn.
...
1. Don’t enter the “box” unless your exit ahead is clear.
2. There is one exception- if you are turning right you may enter the “box” and wait until your way is clear, providing you are waiting for a gap in oncoming traffic only.
3. A word of warning! Even if you are turning right, don’t enter the “box” and
stop on it, if to do so would obstruct other traffic which has the right of way.

xabi

p15574 wrote: »

3. A word of warning! Even if you are turning right, don’t enter the “box” and
stop on it, if to do so would obstruct other traffic which has the right of way.

Can you give an example of what you mean here? The ROTR covers it completely as far as i can see.

X.

p15574

Everything in that post from the url onwards (including the numbered points) is actually from the ROTR document

Saruman

I think the original poster confused some people becuase he himself was confused. He said T junction, however i believe he meant a normal crossroads or intersection.

So if his line of traffic and that in the opposite direction are green and he wants to turn right then he CAN stop in the yellow box and wait for a gap in the oncoming traffic to make the turn.

To do this at a T junction would be insane though as he would probably be blocking traffic.

p15574

I don't think so...I think the point of view is to be coming from the middle road onto the T junction, i.e. you can take a left or right turn, but you obviously want to take a right.

---

-> a> XXXXX -> ->
<- XXXXX <b <-
----+ Me +

---

| |
If the traffic is chocabloc, then I can't see how your exit will ever be clear. Traffic already on the road (i.e. moving from left to right in front of you) will cross the box and get stuck in traffic on the other side. Following the ROTR to the letter, if the lights then turn green for you, you cannot move unless the traffic jam has eased to allow you to make your turn without remaining on the yellow box.

In reality, I think I would make the move and remain on the box (i.e. join the line of traffic) as long as I wasn't impeding traffic going the other way (i.e. car "b" in the (bad) diagram above). You would not be obstructing traffic about to enter the box (left to right) (car "a" above) as they cannot enter unless their exit is clear.

bonkey

p15574 wrote: »

If the traffic is chocabloc, then I can't see how your exit will ever be clear.

This would then take us to the more philosophical question....

Is it ok to break the rules of the road when traffic-management is cocked up?

Glenman

I’m more confused now....yes I am coming up the middle road of the T-Junction and there are no traffic lights, I want to cross the road turning right onto the far side of the major road. There is no traffic coming from my right hand side but the traffic coming on my left (on the far side of the road) is bumper to bumper. There is a yellow box on the far lane. If this box is clear can I move into the box and stop there until the exit to the box is clear even if the car next in line to pass through the box does not let me out or wave me on? It’s hard to explain really, basically I am driving up a minor road and want to turn right onto a very busy road and the traffic coming from my left is very heavy.

p15574

I think basically the ROTR says "no", but common sense says "yes", as long as you don't block traffic coming FROM the direction you want to go

blackbox

ROTR only has examples of crossroads, but bonkey has got it exactly right, with a very useful diagram.

bonkey

I didn't post a diagram.

SeanW

I have a test coming up, and I have a question similar to others about insane traffic surrounding box junctions.

I'll be doing my test in Longford, where the town council - in it's infinite wisdom :mad: - has decided to redevelop the towns main thoroughfare, Ballymahon Street.

The road carries the N5 Westbound, with two lanes of traffic, two lanes of legal parking, and two unofficial lanes of double-parking and delivery area.

That's been reduced to a single traffic lane only, and as a consequence town traffic has gone to hell altogether with this street an all approaches being utterly bonkers at all times.

I've attached a quick sketch of the final approach to the street in question to this post.

One of the approaches, I fear, could be a test-killer if I were taken on it. That is the approach from Earl St.

Traffic from Earl St to Ballymahon St encounters a yellow box junction on the way, but in times of bad traffic the exit will never be clear, particularly as traffic turning left from Market Square (also heading for Ballymahon St.) will be quite aggressive and ignore the box junction routinely.

If taken into that box jct, I could face a no-win situation of either having to break the box rule, or spend the whole day waiting for a clearance that will never happen. Either would of course mean a Grade 3 fault.

What should I do there?

wil

Blackbox, I think it was p15574 you were referring to regarding the diagram, not bonkey, although both have a pretty good understanding of how they work

Seanw, I will answer your question as how I would approach it.
Wisdom and town councils should rarely be in the same sentence.
This junction is a case, I am loathe to say, looks like it would be better served with traffic lights.
Anyway they are unlikely to be there before your test so hmmm what to do?
Ask the tester to get out and block the traffic from Market Sq while you cross the junction. (or use a mate)
If the tester is aware of the problems at this junction he would probably avoid it anyway as I am sure he doesnt want to be stuck for 20 mins twiddling his thumbs either.
Otherwise I would suggest common sense could overrule a ridiculous junction so long as you act with a little courtesy and care.
As you approach the junction, take a few moments to see if anyone does give you space to go through. I think in theory they are supposed to give way to traffic from their right but as you say almost never do. Allow a few cars through,to demonstrate courtesy then, if no one is obliging, and traffic on the Ballymahon St is starting to move, try to time it that your car cuts off any car coming from Market Sq. If you judge it correctly you should be able to follow the moving traffic out of the box without stopping. You effectively have right of way, you are not stopping in the box and you are clearing the box without blocking it. I assume the box covers both sides of the Market Sq rd, so you may have to move halfway in to the box first, try to keep moving, and observe the flow on Ballymahon St. Thats what decides when you should make your move.
And maybe comment under your breath what a ridiculous junction so he can hear you.;). Just make sure you dont hit anyone. Go slowly but without hesitancy so that your intentions are clear and people wont pull out in front of you.
Hope that helps a little.

SeanW

Thing about Longford traffic is that when it gets bad it gets BAAAAAD. :mad: the whole town centre comes to a near standstill (stopping and starting every couple of seconds at <5 kph.

You've also got junctions and one way lanes feeding into each other all over the place. When traffic gets that bad, the only reason things keep moving and people get where they're going is because some people let each other out at junctions, and others muscle their way out. Time evapourates and Logic and ROTR theory goes out the window as everyone jockeys for position.

I've changed instructors and I've noticed this problem twice while practicing on my own, most recently on the junction I've outlined, and previously on another yellow box close by on another street. Both cases I'm going straight and being held back by left turners.

The last instructor advised me that if that happened on the test, wait a couple of minutes, then explain to the tester that I know I should not stop in the box, but that's being disregarded by everyone else a legal clearance isn't likely to come any time soon, then move into position if the tester agrees.

New instructor told me today in no uncertain terms what he thought of that advice.

Taking me to that particular juction I outlined today, he directed me to move into the box, where I ran out of road just before the end of it. But the only cars I was blocking were those turning left from the Market Sq. onto the approach - the same cars that would probably have moved in there if I didn't.

He said the most important thing was that I didn't stop in the centre of it, and that I was not blocking anyone from making a right turn.

Frankly I don't know what to think. The time of the test indicates indicates that traffic mightn't be too bad and I don't think that maneuvre is on (m)any test routes so I'm hoping I won't have to deal with it, but there's a first time for everything.

wil

The tester wants to see that you know what you are doing & that you are not just following the wrong way that everyone else is doing it. Instructor 2 didnt give a good reason why instructor 1 was wrong. I'd say 2 was least correct. As I said hang back for a few cars then make a move. By all means let the tester know you know you are going to have to break the rule of the box in order to get him back before Christmas. At most he can give you a fault or 2 for good luck. If you go blindly through without acknowledging that it is technically wrong, he will probably give you a fault anyway. Perhaps asking the instrictor if you can go ahead is not correct as I dont think they are allowed to answer you, but telling him you have no choice might be the best phrasing. Anyway if its that bad, its very unlikely he will go that route. Wouldnt worry too much about it, it's not that junction you have to prove yourself on, so if everything else is ok, then that is just a minor part of the test. Good luck:)

J_R

Hi,

Has either of your Instructors just simply asked the supervisor how to negotiate the junction. And if not, why not ???

Its even in the "Driving Fault Marking Guidelines"

Where a local unusual road or traffic situation exists, the regional Supervisor will advise testers (and driving-instructors) on the procedure to be followed.

Full read Marking Guidelines

An instructor should be confident the advice he/she is correct. Any unusual situation, then a friendly chat with the supervisor will clear it up.

If they do not know what an examiner expects, then they should not be in the business.

SeanW

Thanks guys that helps a little. At least it might not be a test-ender if I happen to be taken by there.

Also I just read the works should be over by the time of my test so traffic shouldn't be too bad in any case.

irishthump

i don't see the problem here. If he is making a right turn as he described then he CAN stop on the yellow box as long as he is'nt blocking traffic coming from the other dierection.

There is even a little diagram on page 104 of the rules of the raod illustrating this instance.

wil

irishthump wrote: »

i don't see the problem here. If he is making a right turn as he described then he CAN stop on the yellow box as long as he is'nt blocking traffic coming from the other dierection.

There is even a little diagram on page 104 of the rules of the raod illustrating this instance.

You didnt read the thread. The OPs question was answered, but the last couple of posts concerned a different box junction situation posed by SeanW. He was going straight through, not turning right.

comet

http://www.driving-test-success.com/box_junc/box_junc.html