The John Crown Affair - Government manipulation of the media?

DublinWriter

I’m surprised no one on the political fora has mentioned the ‘pulling’ of Professor John Crown from Fridays Late-Late Show.

I’ve heard Professor Crown speak on the radio several times. In my opinion no one can explain why we have the current shambles in our health system better than he.

The following article makes for very interesting reading:

http://www.irishelection.com/11/the-john-crown-affair/

Also read the following Press Release from FG TD Dr.James Reily. He refutes the press-statement made by RTE DG Cathal Goan that Goan himself pulled the plug on Professor Crown from on high:

http://www.finegael.ie/news/index.cfm/type/details/nkey/32742/pkey/653/

In his last years, the late great Dermot Morgan was convinced that the government did pull the strings of the executives at Montrose. RTE (always hungry for advertisers’ money) were never able to give a credible excuse why they pulled one of their most highly rated shows.

Bull Island too, was cancelled at peak viewing figures.

I may not be an investigative journalist or a media-analyst, but I smell a rat here.

Mr.Micro

Yes its very suspicious that Mr.Crown was not allowed to speak.I think RTE is limited as to how far it will go against the Government .Its a bit too cosy for my liking .

Dalfiatach

It's been that way ever since Gerry Collins overthrew the RTÉ Authority back in 1971, which opened the door for Harris and his merry band of Stickie Revisionists to hijack the entire station. The rantings of the Cruiser and his 1977 legislation didn't exactly improve matters.

Ever since, RTÉ has been a propaganda tool of whoever is the Government of the day. Senior bods in RTÉ now were juniors in the 70s, and they were broken and called to heel back then. Servile craven weaklings, the lot of 'em.

Hotblack Desiato

DublinWriter wrote:

Bull Island too, was cancelled at peak viewing figures.

Bad example, it was terminally crap and should never have been shown in the first place!

Dalfiatach wrote: »

Ever since, RTÉ has been a propaganda tool of whoever is the Government of the day.

Oddly, FF are in power more often than not yet feel RTE is biased against them.
I suppose balance is being equally biased agianst both sides...

lostexpectation

so this john crown guy is employed by the hse is he?

DrumSteve

ninja900 wrote: »

Bad example, it was terminally crap and should never have been shown in the first place!

ah no man i liked bull island...

Zombrex

As far as I know Crown was pulled because the panel was going to be way too biased against the government. Despite what people think about this government (I hate the entire shower of ****) RTE does have a mandate that they have to represent all sides of a political debate.

But really they should have pulled Dunphy as he would have complained less about not going on. Pulling Crown wasn't a good idea, it should have been obvious that it was going to look bad. But they most likely did it because they thought Dunphy would get higher ratings (again a bad decision).

I know people who work in RTE, and despite what people seem to think RTE and the government don't get along at all.

Macy

Wicknight wrote: »

As far as I know Crown was pulled because the panel was going to be way too biased against the government. Despite what people think about this government (I hate the entire shower of ****) RTE does have a mandate that they have to represent all sides of a political debate.

So what you're basically saying the Government can stifle debate and "bad news stories" by simply refusing to go on any show?

If the Government and/or HSE was asked to provide representatives and they declined, RTE were 100% in the wrong to pull anyone off the show.

That's if you really believe there was no intervention, and it's just coincidence that Harney's aide called RTE....

Zombrex

Macy wrote: »

If the Government and/or HSE was asked to provide representatives and they declined, RTE were 100% in the wrong to pull anyone off the show.

Those two things aren't connected. Even if the government refuse to attend RTE still have a responsibility towards balance in all their reporting. RTE shouldn't have an agenda, either pro-government or anti-government.

I don't think you quite understand what "balanced" means. Balanced doesn't mean two polar opposites shouting at each other. That is what FOX News do, and while it great for ratings it's not so good for news.

Balance means that an attempt for both sides to be put forward. You don't need a government member to do that. In fact its probably better done without a government member, since they seem to be permanently stuck in the "spin zone" these days

Macy wrote: »

That's if you really believe there was no intervention, and it's just coincidence that Harney's aide called RTE....

There was no intervention, at least according to the people I know who work in RTE who wouldn't have any great interest in lying about this (one guy complains about RTE all the time).

But I suppose it is easier for people to see conspiracy than ineptitude.

walshb

I'm all for improving the health system in Ireland and making
it better for everyone but this guy should stick to being an
oncologist and leave the politics and the management to
the relevant people. Now he's saying he's basically
fed up. I'd hate to be a bloody cancer patient
in his care if he's basically fed up. He's paid and paid
well to be an oncolgist. Get to doing it!!!. There are people
who need you to be caring for them, not parading around TV and radio
stations day in and day out.
I didn't think guys like him with their work commitments and
workload would have time to be on the Late Late and the likes...
http://www.independent.ie/national-n...d-1217181.html

Hotblack Desiato

If Crown is the same consultant I've heard on the radio a few times in the last week (same guy each time, each time I managed not to catch his name :rolleyes: ) he sounds like he'd be happiest moving to Cuba. He just seems to have a total ideological opposition to any change, combined with 1970's marxism (easy on a consultant's salary, eh?) No time for this guy at all... does that sound like Crown?

walshb

ninja900 wrote: »

If Crown is the same consultant I've heard on the radio a few times in the last week (same guy each time, each time I managed not to catch his name :rolleyes: ) he sounds like he'd be happiest moving to Cuba. He just seems to have a total ideological opposition to any change, combined with 1970's marxism (easy on a consultant's salary, eh?) No time for this guy at all... does that sound like Crown?

That's him alright. He hasn't been out of the bloody news and this is a man
with an extremely heavy workload, he says this himself. Well John, get off the damn radio and TV and do your job, what you are paid to do and what cancer patients need you for. We'd hate you too, to become a health service liability:rolleyes:

Crash&Burn

Well i would just like two cents to all off this.

John Crown is a very respected man with in breast cancer treatment and if there was ever a man to tell you how it was he is the one to do it. I say this as he looked after my mother in her last few years. The choice to pull him from the late late and leave Professor Maccon Keane from UCG was a strange choice. Yet leave Eamon Dunphy is mind boggling to me, the fact that John's an actual expert in his field also makes the mind think.

I mean I am all for what john crown has to say but some off his points are a little hard to swallow when he would like to see saint lukes in rathgar closed. Saint lukes has been to Ireland a center of excellence so why move it to Saint James. We lose 179 public beds and have less on the south side for public patients. The choices from our goverment are making me wonder when is the time for a left wing goverment to come to save the day.

Macy

Wicknight wrote: »

Those two things aren't connected. Even if the government refuse to attend RTE still have a responsibility towards balance in all their reporting. RTE shouldn't have an agenda, either pro-government or anti-government.

I don't think you quite understand what "balanced" means. Balanced doesn't mean two polar opposites shouting at each other. That is what FOX News do, and while it great for ratings it's not so good for news.

Balance means that an attempt for both sides to be put forward. You don't need a government member to do that. In fact its probably better done without a government member, since they seem to be permanently stuck in the "spin zone" these days

It's laughable to suggest that RTE has any anti-Government agenda. Both the Government and the HSE were asked to provide people to balance the debate. They refused, so the debate should've gone on with the same panel with a clear statement that they were asked to provide representatives but declined & perhaps read a statement (something you see on the likes of the BBC current affairs programmes all the time).

If we're going to pull debates or speakers because no one can be arsed to go up against them, then the Government/HSE/Church (in fact any organisation) will never have their issues properly investigated or debated. Balance, imo, isn't necessarily about what goes out, it's about giving both sides of the debate an equal opportunity to take part. Once thats done then balance is achieved.

Zombrex

Macy wrote: »

It's laughable to suggest that RTE has any anti-Government agenda.

I didn't

Macy wrote: »

Both the Government and the HSE were asked to provide people to balance the debate. They refused, so the debate should've gone on with the same panel with a clear statement that they were asked to provide representatives but declined & perhaps read a statement (something you see on the likes of the BBC current affairs programmes all the time).

No it shouldn't have.

As I already explained RTE has a mandate to present a balanced account of the issue. That mandate is independent to whether or not the government decides to send someone to the debate.

Macy wrote: »

If we're going to pull debates or speakers because no one can be arsed to go up against them, then the Government/HSE/Church (in fact any organisation) will never have their issues properly investigated or debated.

The debate wasn't pulled. RTE took measures (incorrect measures) to balance the panel before the program aired independently of the actions of the government. That is what they are supposed to do.

Macy wrote: »

Balance, imo, isn't necessarily about what goes out, it's about giving both sides of the debate an equal opportunity to take part.

Well you are wrong.

That would only apply if the balance was supposed to protect the interests of one side of the debate, and you could argue that they wave that protection by not turning up.

But that isn't it at all.

The "balance" refers to what the public, the viewer, receives.

RTE isn't a court system. It is an information system. It's responsibility is to its viewers, not to either side of the debate. It has a responsibility to present a balanced report to it's viewers for their information.

lostexpectation

Macy wrote: »

If we're going to pull debates or speakers because no one can be arsed to go up against them, then the Government/HSE/Church (in fact any organisation) will never have their issues properly investigated or debated. Balance, imo, isn't necessarily about what goes out, it's about giving both sides of the debate an equal opportunity to take part. Once thats done then balance is achieved.

infact thats well known tactic to nobble your opposition, don't send anyone and they have to take someone off the opposition.



I think the worst part is they put dunphy on he's a sports pundit.

what has dunphy had to say about it.

they should had kept mary mcaleese on maybe she might actually say something for once.

Mr.Micro

Macy wrote: »

It's laughable to suggest that RTE has any anti-Government agenda.

Its in the Mirror today that some guy at RTE called Curran pulled Prof Crown as some spokesman from health dept . objected .Sounds like gagging to me.

Curran is the MD of Television in RTÉ.
He was on the news at one yesterday saying that he left it up to the programmes editors who to drop.

He did say someone from the department rang RTÉ but they did not talk to him.

Sounds to me that they weren't expecting this hoo haw and are at a loss how to spin it.
It was,I think, a stupid decision on dropping Crown but an even more stupid decision for some one from the department to ring RTÉ about the programme.

The_Minister

Mary Harney and Bertie Ahern have both made it clear that no-one from their department contacted RTE to ask them to drop Mr. Crown. the Mail is a rag

Jackie laughlin

There's not a scrap of evidence for the conspiracy drama being concocted. This was a poor decision made by programme makers who should have seen the fuss it would cause.

The govt. or anyone else refusing to make personnel available for TV programmes doesn't remove the legal obligations on RTE.

By the way, Bull Island and Dermot Morgan were doing badly in the ratings when it was decided not to do further series. There's always a rumour when a programme is discontinued.

DublinWriter

Jackie laughlin wrote: »

By the way, Bull Island and Dermot Morgan were doing badly in the ratings when it was decided not to do further series. There's always a rumour when a programme is discontinued.

Wrong. Scrap Saturday was doing very well and pulling in lots of listeners to a usually 'dead' Radio 1 mid morning weekend slot.

The fact he was replaced by Brendan Balfe playing 50's lounge music speaks volumes.

We have gone from the situation where DG Goan denied any contact from the government to Curran admitting there was a call, but it wasn't taken.

Then on Mondays Irish Times we have the following:

Yesterday, however, a spokesman for Ms Harney confirmed he had told the programme team that the proposed panel was unbalanced.

He said that during discussions with the Late Late Show team on Thursday he had expressed the view that a proposed panel to discuss the health service was "unbalanced". But the spokesman emphasised that no request had been made to remove Prof Crown.

"In the course of discussion with the Late Late Show I did make the point that the panel was unbalanced. I made it in the normal way that happens in such discussions," said Ms Harney's spokesman.

"I made no request that anybody should be removed from the panel, and it was news to me when it transpired on Friday night that Prof Crown was not going on the programme," he said.

So if Harney's own spokeman said the discussion would be unbalanced then why did Harney herself refuse to take part on it? She also refused an interview on a subsequent edition of Prime Time.

Even the statement made by Harney's spokeman seems to contracdict Goan's press-release of last Saturday.

The militant in me wants to call for a boycott of the goods and services of RTE's top 5 advertisers until either an truthful explanation is made or Crown is allowed appear on a future edition of the Late Late.

Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

DublinWriter

DublinWriter wrote: »

We have gone from the situation where DG Goan denied any contact from the government to Curran admitting there was a call, but it wasn't taken.

Do you know if Goan was aware of who was called at the time and by whom? Or are you just speculating?

Then on Mondays Irish Times we have the following:

Yesterday, however, a spokesman for Ms Harney confirmed he had told the programme team that the proposed panel was unbalanced.

He said that during discussions with the Late Late Show team on Thursday he had expressed the view that a proposed panel to discuss the health service was "unbalanced". But the spokesman emphasised that no request had been made to remove Prof Crown.

"In the course of discussion with the Late Late Show I did make the point that the panel was unbalanced. I made it in the normal way that happens in such discussions," said Ms Harney's spokesman.

"I made no request that anybody should be removed from the panel, and it was news to me when it transpired on Friday night that Prof Crown was not going on the programme," he said.

So if Harney's own spokeman said the discussion would be unbalanced then why did Harney herself refuse to take part on it? She also refused an interview on a subsequent edition of Prime Time.

It's not up to her to figure out a way to balance the panel.It is within the rights of any licence payer though including her,you and me to point out an inbalance though.
It's highly probable of course that interested parties are more likely to point out these things.
There are after all two sides to every story and thats what balance is there to protect and rightly so.

Even the statement made by Harney's spokeman seems to contracdict Goan's press-release of last Saturday.

Again as I asked already are you aware of something here that the rest of us aren't ? Goan's first reaction seems to be to state from conviction that no political bias has been implimented.

The militant in me wants to call for a boycott of the goods and services of RTE's top 5 advertisers until either an truthful explanation is made or Crown is allowed appear on a future edition of the Late Late.

Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

Who are you accusing of lying exactly? And do you have any evidence to back that up ?
From what I can see you don't.All you have is an understandable query as to the legally obliged element of balance required on RTÉ and absolutely no evidence that there was political interference into the decision as to how to correct any imbalance.

bilko

My,but Fianna Fail's little helpers are out in force on this thread.
Ms Harney's minion phoned RTE 'expressing concerns' about the proposed panel;Mr Crown was subsequently dropped.Oh,and by the way,changing the subject totally,the licence fee increase came through.Trebles all round then in Govt. Depts and RTE-a truly symbiotic relationship!
It's so hard to know whose side to be on:
A respected oncologist who's bravely taking a stand or Haughey's apprentice who sinisterly keeps dossiers on people.

DublinWriter

Tristrame wrote: »

Do you know if Goan was aware of who was called at the time and by whom? Or are you just speculating?

No I don't know if Goan was aware of who called at the time any by whom as I'm not privy to his innermost thoughts.

I'm going by what seems to be his own personal Press Release (not available on the web, you'll have to listen to Marianne Finuacaine's Sunday show for excerpts and discussion) and the two RTE press releases available in the RTE web site regarding Curran.

John_C

bilko wrote: »

Ms Harney's minion phoned RTE 'expressing concerns' about the proposed panel;

I used to think that this was all a storm in a teacup but your use of quotation marks has convinced me to believe in the conspiracy.

The_Minister

The Irish Times has printed an apology to Mary Harney today, for claiming that she intervened with RTE.

lostexpectation

the hse/the government should have provided somebody

bilko

bilko wrote: »

My,but Fianna Fail's little helpers are out in force on this thread.
Ms Harney's minion phoned RTE 'expressing concerns' about the proposed panel;Mr Crown was subsequently dropped.Oh,and by the way,changing the subject totally,the licence fee increase came through.Trebles all round then in Govt. Depts and RTE-a truly symbiotic relationship!
It's so hard to know whose side to be on:
A respected oncologist who's bravely taking a stand or Haughey's apprentice who sinisterly keeps dossiers on people.

1 out of ten for that post as it reads like a rehash of unsubstantiated rumour and speculation already posted in parts of this thread.

bilko

Tristrame wrote: »

1 out of ten for that post as it reads like a rehash of unsubstantiated rumour and speculation already posted in parts of this thread.

Rumour??
Harney's office rang RTE complaining about the panel -FACT
John Crown was dropped - FACT
The Licence fee was increased - FACT
John Crown is a respected Oncologist - FACT

Maybe it's not really November - just an unsubstantiated rumour!

bilko

bilko wrote: »

Rumour??

and speculation yes.

Harney's office rang RTE complaining about the panel -FACT

Asking about the make up of the panel and balance yes

John Crown was dropped - FACT

A stupid RTÉ decision in balancing out the panel-I suppose next you're going to suggest[also with no evidence] that the health department wanted the audience vetted too? They were quite outspoken.

The Licence fee was increased - FACT

by 2 euro... :rolleyes:

John Crown is a respected Oncologist - FACT

LoL,your point caller?

Maybe it's not really November - just an unsubstantiated rumour!

Well certainly your post was because you've no evidence to suggest dropping Crowne was demanded by the government.
Balance is a requirement by the BCI by the way.

Zombrex

bilko wrote: »

Rumour??
Harney's office rang RTE complaining about the panel -FACT
John Crown was dropped - FACT
The Licence fee was increased - FACT
John Crown is a respected Oncologist - FACT

Maybe it's not really November - just an unsubstantiated rumour!

Dempsey's office rang RTE complaining about a Primetime report on traffic - FACT
That day the RTE canteen serves hamburgers instead of cottage pie, as originally announced on their menu - FACT

Dempsey's office OBVIOUSLY got the RTE canteen to serve hamburgers to piss off the Primetime staff before the show aired.

etc etc ...

You seem to be ignoring the FACT (:eek:) that government "minions" as you so colourfully put it, are constantly in contact with all media outlets in Ireland over anything that involves the government (its called "spin").

No matter what decision the Late Late Show producers take about any political piece it will follow calls from government minions.

The fact that a decision follows on from phone calls from the government doesn't imply that the call ordered the decision.

It would be far weirder if this decision had been taken and their had been no communication between RTE and the government.

Zombrex

The conspiracy people also seem to be reading a little too much into what Crown was going to say?

Assuming the government would actually order RTE to make a political decision based on threats over the license fee (I imagine half the RTE producers would resign if that was the case), would they really pull that string, with all the risk of mass resignations and back-lash, just to get Crown off the Late Late Show?

Was Crown going to bring down the government or something?

bilko

Tristrame wrote: »

and speculation yes.
Asking about the make up of the panel and balance yes
A stupid RTÉ decision in balancing out the panel-I suppose next you're going to suggest[also with no evidence] that the health department wanted the audience vetted too? They were quite outspoken.
by 2 euro... :rolleyes:
LoL,your point caller?

Well certainly your post was because you've no evidence to suggest dropping Crowne was demanded by the government.
Balance is a requirement by the BCI by the way.

That final comment just shows how ludicrous your posts are.I should ring up the Government-appointed BCI about balance-great idea!!When BCI Chairman Conor Maguire,Ahern's barrister at the Mahon tribunal,gets a free moment I'll have a word.Who will I complain to about the oh-so-balanced Late Late Show just prior to the election when Harris and Waters were canvassing for FF? Oh yeah,BCI head John Waters!!!!

lostexpectation

what would have happen if the hse/government had got made available somebody for the panel?

bilko

bilko wrote: »

That final comment just shows how ludicrous your posts are.I should ring up the Government-appointed BCI about balance-great idea!!When BCI Chairman Conor Maguire,Ahern's barrister at the Mahon tribunal,gets a free moment I'll have a word.Who will I complain to about the oh-so-balanced Late Late Show just prior to the election when Harris and Waters were canvassing for FF? Oh yeah,BCI head John Waters!!!!

So you are saying that the BCI is biased.
I would suggest that you look at the Irish public who voted just 5 months ago (they all have their own minds despite what you may think). Maybe it's them that are biased?? (after all it's them that in majority wanted the government we have now) which in itself is the laughable or rather more ludicrous position to be spouting than suggesting that 40 or 50% of any board/body mightn't be or shouldn't quietly be supporters of this government.


And anyway it was the BCC I meant,and not the BCI.
A simple typo..but hey they're probably biased aswell right?

lostexpectation

not biased they simply all think alike, back each other up

You've the minutes of their meetings have you or is that opinion dressed up as fact?

bilko

Tristrame wrote: »

So you are saying that the BCI is biased.
I would suggest that you look at the Irish public who voted just 5 months ago (they all have their own minds despite what you may think). Maybe it's them that are biased?? (after all it's them that in majority wanted the government we have now) which in itself is the laughable or rather more ludicrous position to be spouting than suggesting that 40 or 50% of any board/body mightn't be or shouldn't quietly be supporters of this government.


And anyway it was the BCC I meant,and not the BCI.
A simple typo..but hey they're probably biased aswell right?

The standards required to be a moderator on this forum....
It's pointless having FF party lackeys as moderators,but be that as it may.
I didn't accuse anybody of being biased and nothing I said was incorrect about either Maguire or Waters.The typo,if that's what it was,was your fault and nobody else's
I must confess that,because your English is so poor,I have no idea what you are trying to say in the central part of your post.It's as incoherent
as a Dail transcript of an Ahern statement!

Banned.
Subject to maybe a genuine apology for that ridiculous outburst and perhaps a willingness to debate rather than rant.

Thread closed.