Apartment - Clare Hall

Rock123

Hi everybody,

I put a deposit on an apartment in clare hall, Dublin 13. They called me to do snags. The apartment is in bits, absolutely bad quality. They told and showed something else and they are giving something else. It seems that they are just trying to offload stuff.

Can anybody tell me what are my consumer rights, as i have already signed a contract with builders but i have not taken possession of the property, so the final final contract has not been done and my mortgage has not started either. My solicitor says i might loose the deposit and the builders might sue me back.

Can they block me in this deal or still i have a chance to get out of it...

Any suggestions in this regard is very welcome....

HELP !!! HELP !!! HELP!!!
Thanks everybody.

vms7ply9t6dw4b

Dont sign off on the snags untill everything is the way you want it? Thats the whole idea of snagging the apt... Or am i missing something?

Rock123

and what if i need to completely come out of this deal, i know that i will loose my deposit but is there a chance that they might sue me back....

Please guide me....thanks

dotsman

As far as snags are concerned, my solicitor told me that, as long as it's nothing major, I can't hold up the sale. However, if there is some serious issue, you can of course challenge them.

Don't be afraid to fight them. They will try and be as smart and dismissive as possible. Photograph everything and have them state (in writing) that they will have everything sorted by a certain date after you proceed with the sale. Please note that some minor snags are a matter of opinion and the builders might not agree to do a job that costs a couple grand to fix something only the fussiest of people would notice!

However, if they are still unwilling to deal with the major issues, then you should consider withdrawing from the sale (in today's market, you could probably find suitable alternatives for the same price, maybe even cheaper!) . Again, they will say they are keeping the deposit and will threaten to force you to complete the sale. This is bull****. Not only is it a legal grey area, but you have a far superior weapon - publicity.

Find out what developments the builder is currently involved in. Photograph all the issues. Mention to the builders that you intend talking to Joe Duffy, write to newspapers etc to enquire if the public believe that the builder is treating you fairly. In all cases, inform the builder that you will be mentioning the developments that they are currently working on (joe public is more likely to link what they hear to a development than an actual builder, 'cos the builder's name usually means nothing) and warning people of what happens when trying to deal with these developers. Contact the Estate Agent and tell them that you will be naming them when dealing with the media (this will get the EA to put further pressure on the developer - "ffs, just give this guy his deposit back and get rid of him! I don't want my name associated with this fiasco!" etc)

Ultimately, in today's market, only quality is selling. If a developer/development/EA gets bad publicity, they could find their sales completely dry up.

P.S. I'm only saying that you should threaten this, if you not satisfied. Once you go down this road, there's no going back and if it doesn't work (ie the developer backs down), then the developer is going to hate you and fight you as much as possible (it could prove very costly to take this all the way to court)!

Rock123

i just do not care if they want to keep my deposit....i just want to get out of this completely, what will be the chance then that they might sue me back.....i am a first time buyer..and they know that i don't know the tricks. Is there any chance that they can force me to buy or penalize me.

Thanks

DublinWriter

Without exposing you or boards.ie to any legal exposure (i.e. without naming names), I know of a number of apartment developments in that area and in general the whole lot are bad buys, even if they are finished correctly.

Any estate agent will tell you that the key to property value is location, location, location, and the apartments they are knocking up in that area fail on all three of those previous criterion.

What you might lose on your deposit now might be chicken-feed in the long-run. If any serious market correction happens, those particular apartments will be in front-line due to the particular crime and anti-social hotspots they are on the doorstep of (again, not naming names).

Best of luck.

Rock123

Jesus!, the more i think about that i more a get scared, how can i come out of this bloody game which the builders are playing with me...

Thanks

dotsman

Rock123 wrote: »

i just do not care if they want to keep my deposit....i just want to get out of this completely, what will be the chance then that they might sue me back.....i am a first time buyer..and they know that i don't know the tricks. Is there any chance that they can force me to buy or penalize me.

Thanks

I seriously doubt they would try to sue. They may threaten it, they will probably try to bully you, but in the end, it would be very difficult to enforce, and should you threaten to publicise it - it would be very terrible publicity for them (and indeed the entire building sector).

As an FTB, you probably have a 100% (or close to it) mortgage. You could always say that the bank are refusing to grant you the mortgage as in their opinion the property is not worth the price you are paying for it*. Banks will never allow draw down on the mortgage without receiving a valuation of the property (ie their security). Traditionally, the selling price on a new property would be what they would use, but given the state of the market, it is not infeasible for a bank to check that the purchaser is paying a realistic price. Again, the potential publicity of a newspaper headline stating that a bank is declaring a certain property as overpriced would have huge negative consequences for the developer (and building sector as a whole).

Remember, there are 2 ways of dealing with this. The legal route (which you should seek advise from your solicitor on) and the "man-to-man" route in which you deal with the developer personally and try to come to some arrangement outside lawsuits/contracts.

In the end there's nothing really to gain for either side to go down the road of lawsuits (as an FTB, I am assuming you don't have massive wads of cash that the developer could be awarded even if they were to win the case! - all they would do is force you to declare bankruptcy - terrible publicity for them)

*they could try to call you bluff by contacting your bank directly. But again, in doing so, your bank may very well take that as a cue and actually decide to seek an independent (conservative) valuation.

P.S. are you trying to get out of this development so as to buy another place? or is it that you just don't want to buy this particular property? or is it that you don't want to buy anywhere at all now that the market has changed.

P.S.S. Playing devil's advocate here;), but if you are just trying to get out now that the market has stalled, this is not very fair on them (ie, it would be the same as a developer refusing to sell to you if property prices had increased since you put down the deposit!).

wiggzie

Hi,

I'd advise you to visit askaboutmoney.com - I've seen this question a number of times, with responses from actual solicitors, rather then people off the street.

The main consideration here is why you want to pull out of the sale. If it's to buy somewhere else, or because of falling prices, the builder is well within his rights to force you to proceed via the courts. Best case you lose your 10%.

If the issue is the quality, then get your solicitor on the case, but as has been pointed out, if the issues are not significant, you will have difficulty getting out of a contract you signed with your eyes wide open.

You may get away with claiming the bank won't give you a mortgage - check with your solicitor, but don't be too optimistic. Afterall the bank is only interested in their %, so if value has fallen by less than your deposit, they won't be too concerned. Don't forget it's the same banks that financed the building of the apartments, so it's not in their interests for them to go unsold...

SerialComplaint

Your own solicitor is really the best person to advise you on the specifics of this situation.

foggy_lad

Rock123 wrote: »

i just do not care if they want to keep my deposit....i just want to get out of this completely, what will be the chance then that they might sue me back.....i am a first time buyer..and they know that i don't know the tricks. Is there any chance that they can force me to buy or penalize me.

Thanks

sounds like you just want out but you have already entered into an agreement to purchase and i would not be surprised if the developer had grounds to sue if you renague on the agreement??

BC

dotsman wrote: »

As far as snags are concerned, my solicitor told me that, as long as it's nothing major, I can't hold up the sale. However, if there is some serious issue, you can of course challenge them.

My solicitor told me the opposite - he said not to sign the final contract until i'm absolutely happy that everything on the snag is complete or else happy to let some things slide if they are things that i'm not too worried about (e.g a wall needs to be repainted but i'm going to paint it a different colour anyway so it doesn't bother me). If it takes 6 months then it takes 6 months, the builders have to do the snags. If that wasn't the ase then what is the point of a snag???

penexpers

dotsman wrote: »

I seriously doubt they would try to sue. They may threaten it, they will probably try to bully you, but in the end, it would be very difficult to enforce, and should you threaten to publicise it - it would be very terrible publicity for them (and indeed the entire building sector).

Sorry dotsman, but your advice is very misleading.

A builder can force you to complete on a house even if you don't want to. This is written down in every single house building contract. It's not that difficult to enforce, all the builder needs to do is issue a Completion Notice and you have very little redress from that.

Aside from that, it should be stated in the contract what constitutes a major and a minor fault. You cannot fail to complete on a minor fault. If there's disagreement between the employer (purchaser) and the builder as to wheter a fault is major/minor then it has to go to arbitration which is a long and very costly exercise.

OP, go to your solicitor and don't trust the advice of anyone here (myself included).

penexpers

BC wrote: »

My solicitor told me the opposite - he said not to sign the final contract until i'm absolutely happy that everything on the snag is complete or else happy to let some things slide if they are things that i'm not too worried about (e.g a wall needs to be repainted but i'm going to paint it a different colour anyway so it doesn't bother me). If it takes 6 months then it takes 6 months, the builders have to do the snags. If that wasn't the ase then what is the point of a snag???

That's bad advice from your solicitor. A builder can get annoyed and can issue a completion notice. Most snags should be completed within a month.

BC

penexpers wrote: »

That's bad advice from your solicitor. A builder can get annoyed and can issue a completion notice. Most snags should be completed within a month.

Why is bad advice? Who cares if the builder gets annoyed, i'm entitled to an apartment that is completed. If they aren't fixing the snags thats their problem. Maybe it depends on the builder, mine are particularly awful. They issued a completion notice in July and i still haven't closed as they hadn't fixed the snags. They have finally done them so i'm expecting to close this week however there was no way i was going to close when the apartment wasn't complete just because the builder might be annoyed!!

dotsman

penexpers wrote: »

Sorry dotsman, but your advice is very misleading.

A builder can force you to complete on a house even if you don't want to. This is written down in every single house building contract. It's not that difficult to enforce, all the builder needs to do is issue a Completion Notice and you have very little redress from that.
.

But my point is that just because the contract says so does not necessarily make it "easy" to enforce. Yes, if this was an investor and had the cash/assets, but a First Time Buyer with no assets has nothing to lose! If the bank is unwilling to lend the money, how can the FTB proceed with the sale? Yes, you can head down the road of litigation and try to force the FTB to find the money somehow, but (as I was saying) this leads to very bad publicity for the developer. If the op was to hint that he will fight this publicly, then then the developer would be better off "cursing the op under their breath" but not drag the op publicly through the courts.

At the moment, developers are trying their best convince to potential buyers that the market "isn't so bad". If/Once the media start focusing on stories of young FTB's being dragged to court (possible to declare bankruptcy), then it's game-over and the market will well and truly crash.

Can you imagine how the sympathy story goes?
How fcuked up would the developer be if the following story was ever printed etc.

Young "John" struggled to save for a deposit for years to buy his dream home. However, the dream turned into a nightmare when the finished apartment was nowhere near the glossy artist impressions that were used to entice John and for months Big Bad Ltd., the developers kept trying to force John to hand over "ridiculous amounts of money" for an apartment that was not fit to live in (cue 1 or 2 of the worst photos from the snag). Now, because the developers have dragged this on for so long, John finds that he is no longer able to finance the property. Although able to get a 95% mortgage last year when he originally put down the deposit, due to the credit crunch, rising interest rates and instability in the market, John is no longer able to get such a loan. Unable to purchase the apartment, Big Bad Ltd., which has made profits of XXX million over the past 10 years during the boom is taking John to court, where if they win, he will be forced to declare bankruptcy. His mistake? Trying to purchase a property in today's market. Mickey Mouse, of the XXX Consumers Advice group warns claims that John is not the first to suffer from unscrupulous developers, and strongly urges all buyers, but especially First Time Buyers, to avoid purchasing property for the moment until the market stabilises, and if they do buy, to inspect the premises thoroughly first and not be pressurised by Estate Agents/Developers, who are only looking after their own interests blah blah blah. The days of buying off plans are long gone etc..."

I'm not saying the above story is that of the ops. But who cares? Most news stories are part bull****:D:D:D! At the moment, bad news is selling and bashing the property market is the flavour of the season amongst all the media!

Sizzler

penexpers wrote: »

Sorry dotsman, but your advice is very misleading.

A builder can force you to complete on a house even if you don't want to. This is written down in every single house building contract. It's not that difficult to enforce, all the builder needs to do is issue a Completion Notice and you have very little redress from that.

As one of the previous posters said, if the bank change their mind and withdraw mortgage approval what is the builder going to do then? Take the poor sod to court for €300K? I dont think so.

I do agree though, get your solicitor to advise you on how best to terminate the contract. If the one you have isnt able to help Im sure you can find an expert in this area which will be able to advise you.

Rock123

Hi guys,

thanks a lot to all of you for taking time for this discussion.

As for me my situation has got from bad to worse, my partner has lost the job. The bank is not willing to giving mortgage anymore. On the other hand when i went to builders through my solicitors, they have issued a completion statement and wants us to close he deal, they are asking us to sign letter of indemnity as well.

I think very bad days are ahead of me.

I have been screwed by every corner. But i think that is just my luck.

Thanks again to all of you for sharing your experiences.

witchywoman

DublinWriter wrote: »

Without exposing you or boards.ie to any legal exposure (i.e. without naming names), I know of a number of apartment developments in that area and in general the whole lot are bad buys, even if they are finished correctly.

Any estate agent will tell you that the key to property value is location, location, location, and the apartments they are knocking up in that area fail on all three of those previous criterion.

What you might lose on your deposit now might be chicken-feed in the long-run. If any serious market correction happens, those particular apartments will be in front-line due to the particular crime and anti-social hotspots they are on the doorstep of (again, not naming names).

Best of luck.

hey , you obviously dont live in clare hall, but i do!! crime and anti social hotspots? ive lived here 10 years, and i wouldnt move!! yes, you have darndale on your doorstep, but also sutton , baldoyle and howth, hardly crime and anti social hotspots.! im not sure about the apartment the op was set to buy, but i know my house 4beds was well constructed and i have more than 1300 square foot and a 40 foot back garden.And thats a rarity in Dublin 13.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Rock123 wrote: »

Hi guys,

thanks a lot to all of you for taking time for this discussion.

As for me my situation has got from bad to worse, my partner has lost the job. The bank is not willing to giving mortgage anymore. On the other hand when i went to builders through my solicitors, they have issued a completion statement and wants us to close he deal, they are asking us to sign letter of indemnity as well.

I think very bad days are ahead of me.

I have been screwed by every corner. But i think that is just my luck.

Thanks again to all of you for sharing your experiences.

that's really sad to hear Rock - hope things get better for you in the new year