Chemical reaction - Hydrochloric acid burn

Mellor

I came home from work today to here than my little brother recieved a burn.
The class were working on some sort of mini rocket. They were researching different chemical reactions to use as a propellent.
The teacher gave them out various to mix to produce a rection, and the strongest would power the rocket.

The reaction in my brothers chemicals was quite aggresssive, it sprayed out of the container and on to his hands. He shook it off quickly, but some of it "stuck" to his fingers resulting in a burn.
I ask him did he remember what the chemicals he was mixing were? He said hydrochloric acid and calcium. He also said that the teacher did remember what would happpen if they were mixed. I have no advanced knowledge of chemistry, but the above sounds incredibably stupid to me. To give those things to a child to mix is insane. I could of predicted some sort of reaction, and also that the mix could produce a burn.
I remember the demos where litium or similar is dropped in water, sparking and burning, and it is said "never" to drop it in a strong acid. I remember calcium reaction slightly with water, its an alkaline metal so not too far from litium. A teacher should never instruct a secondary school pupil to carry out an experiment where they don't "remember" the result
Am I over reacting as it was my brother? Afaik were not given safety gloves either.

tak

If the kid brother's story is true it's time for a parental visit to school.
But it might not be the full story from the brother.
By the way was it truly conc HCl or just a 10 % solution ?
If it was the solution it would not be too serious a burn if he got to a tap quick.
It's hard to believe that teachers today would take any serious risks. It would not be in their interest - nothing much to gain and a lot to lose.

The HCl + CaCO3 reaction used be used in fire extinguishers in schools.
Maybe that's where teacher got the notion.

As you say the handing out and making sure it's worn of safety gear like coat, goggles, gloves, etc is a necessity from everyone's point of view.
That's what would worry me.

Mellor

I have no reason to not believe the story.
I don't know the concentration of the acid. But it was strong enough to cause a burn.
Safety equipment aside (which is a huge issue), I think the teacher was stupid to instruct a class of second years to attempt an experiment with hydrochloric acid where she didn't know the results, the fact that they were also looking for a suitable reaction for a rocket propellant makes it worse, they was obvious some idea the reaction would be aggressive.

I suppose it better that the injury was only to his hand, could of been worse. Imagine the selected reaction was used and the rocket shot up spraying it everywhere

ZorbaTehZ

To give an acid as strong as HCL to a student sounds a bit crazy to me. I would have thought that those kind of chemicals would be only used by people familiar/able with them i.e. teachers/assistants.

humbert

I'm surprised Calcium and even quite concentrated HCL produced a vigorous reaction(although perhaps if it was finely ground). Although if they were using it as a propellant was it confined? I'm also surprised it left him with a burn if he rinsed it under water. Even at that age if I got any corrosive chemical on me I'd have given my hands a very thorough washing.

If things happened exactly as you say the teacher was irresponsible and quite frankly giving even weak HCL and a base to second year students isn't wise but I'd be amazed if there wasn't some fooling around that lead to the accident.

shanethemofo

Have you considered that maybe the teacher did not "give" it to him? Maybe he took some to mess about with?

And plus, you can buy that in chemists cant you?

mawk

yeah im not saying its not unfortunate that your brother got burnt, but id be real surprised if the teacher did something genuinely reckless. but accidents do happen. Or maybe your brother was told to turf in 5g and just poured a load in or something.

i had a bottle of H2SO4 dropped on me way back in about 2/3rd year too. it wasnt fun.

Mellor

shanethemofo wrote: »

Have you considered that maybe the teacher did not "give" it to him? Maybe he took some to mess about with?

And plus, you can buy that in chemists cant you?

There would of been no other way for him to get it. The chemicals are in a locked room, with the dangerous ones in a locked press in the room. I understand the skeptism, and its probably justified, most of these things in schools are the result of messing about.
But after a few days I am now sure that the teacher gave the mix to him, along with the instructions to mix it in a testtube. No gloves were given out.

I'm also surprised it left him with a burn if he rinsed it under water. Even at that age if I got any corrosive chemical on me I'd have given my hands a very thorough washing

Luckily he got to the sink straight away so the burn wasn't as bad as it could of been.

SOL

Sounds like someone was playing with fireworks at lunchtime, unless you are using concentrated HCL i.e. 37% you wont burn yourself if you wash it off quickly, even at 1 or 2 molar you would want to be pretty slow to actually hurt yourself...

Mellor

SOL wrote: »

Sounds like someone was playing with fireworks at lunchtime, unless you are using concentrated HCL i.e. 37% you wont burn yourself if you wash it off quickly, even at 1 or 2 molar you would want to be pretty slow to actually hurt yourself...

I have already said previously that the story above def happened. We have a letter signed by the teacher, principal and BoM to confirm. Your comments are in no way relevant. 37% is hardly concentrated either, and considering he did recieve a burn it was obviously higher concentration than this. I was looking for opinions on the incident, not opinions on people believes that it happened.

SOL

Mellor wrote: »

Your comments are in no way relevant. 37% is hardly concentrated either, and considering he did recieve a burn it was obviously higher concentration than this. I was looking for opinions on the incident, not opinions on people believes that it happened.

Your ignorance and arrogance combined are astounding, do a little research, get a bit of an idea about what you are saying or SHUT THE **** UP.

Sorry, but really, you cant ask for comments on the incident, tell us what definitely happened and then say things like that, when all I did was try to clarify some facts in the case.

If you have decided exactly what happened and are merely looking for legal advice on how best to sue maybe you should go to the legal advice board...


Having decided that it was a combination of HCl and Calcium that exploded and caused the burns, tell me, what happened the Hydrogen? Was there a fire?

Mucco

SOL wrote: »

Your ignorance and arrogance combined are astounding, do a little research, get a bit of an idea about what you are saying or SHUT THE **** UP.

Wow, somebody got out of bed the wrong side this morning!

Mellor wrote:

37% is hardly concentrated either, and considering he did recieve a burn it was obviously higher concentration than this. I was looking for opinions on the incident, not opinions on people believes that it happened.

HCl is actually a gas, so it's commonly used as a solution in water, of which 37% is the strongest you get, it's pretty nasty at this concentration, so I'm surprised it was used.
As mentioned above, it sounds like a HCl/CaCO3 reaction, this would release a lot of CO2 which causes the reaction to froth-up, even spray out of a narrow necked container.
When I was at school, safety in the lab was a complete joke, and I doubt it's changed much, definitely follow it up, it's the only way things will change

RealJohn

First of all, as has been said, HCl doesn't come any more concentrated than 37%. Even at 37%, it isn't very stable and would evolve corrosive gas so the teacher did not give this to a student (no matter how stupid/irresponsible they were).

Secondly, the teacher was pretty irresponsible if they did indeed give a student calcium and HCl to mix because they should know (from the current junior certificate science course if not from their degree) that calcium does indeed react violently even with dilute HCl. It's not a reaction that students should be doing.

Thirdly, as has been said, even relatively concentrated acids will not result in anything more than some fairly mild irritation if they are washed off quickly.

There is no way that the kid was an innocent party in this. The question is whether or not the teacher was negligent in some way. You can give dilute HCl to a 2nd year class if properly supervised so it's certainly not as black and white as that. If the teacher did in fact give them calicum too, that would be another story but she would have to be a pretty stupid to have done so. They should also have had suitable safety equipment.


With all due respect Mellor, you came here for an educated opinion which you admitted you did not have yourself. Your really shouldn't be trying to correct people on matters of chemistry. What SOL had said was completely true and you just attacked him (insisting that the impossible was true I might add).

Kevster

Ultimately, he should have been wearing safety gloves and the teacher should have ensured that he wore them. If the teacher did tell him to wear gloves prior to mixing but he failed to put them on, then it's still the duty of the teacher to ensure that he wears them.

I don't understand why some of ye are saying he (and other students) shouldn't have been allowed to even perform the mixing - why not? It's part of learning. Two years ago in college I melted my hand while burning Magnesium in air (I spilt the burning magnesium all over my hand) but I wasn't wearing safety gloves. I view myself as being at fault. I was also allowed to add cold water to boiling concentrated Sulfuric Acid (a step in the Kjeldahl [protein] method). It's one hell of a reaction but at least I got the chance to do it and learn.


Kevin.

Delphi91

If I was using acid in my lab, I ALWAYS use 0.1M. That's as strong as would be given out to kids.

I do put calcium in this acid, but will usually do it myself and even then its only a piece about the size of a head of a match or thereabouts. About an inch of 0.1M HCL in the bottom of a tall test tube and a piece of calcium gives a decent enough reaction for the students to see that it's pretty reactive.

Professor_Fink

Delphi91 wrote: »

If I was using acid in my lab, I ALWAYS use 0.1M. That's as strong as would be given out to kids.

In our school lab there was definitely 16m nitric acid, not that we ever used it (well, not when the teacher was there anyway).

Delphi91

Professor_Fink wrote: »

In our school lab there was definitely 16m nitric acid, not that we ever used it (well, not when the teacher was there anyway).

Oh I've got that stuff too - a few Winchesters of it. But all acids get diluted down to 0.1M before being given out.