2010 will our road and rail map be complete.

mysterious

So.. what will be the real picture in 2010, now that so many projects are delayed in the T21 (note without sarcasm).

Will the inter urbans be finished do you think? Will projects like the Kildare line upgrade/rail interconnecter even lift off?

Will our transport minister still continue to draw shiny maps of the new Metro around our capital, Get a piece of purple thread to connect our red and green luas lines, scribble a new devastating road around Tara with his fancy pen, and himself collecting your tolls and dance away on a new road to the Derry in hope for a fianna fail all island domination.

Meanwhile..... in Madrid they have already built a few dozens metro lines in the last few years at a reasonable cost I believe. So Kudos to them on that.

Meanwhile back in Ireland we spend a generation talking about building something this big, then a finally something comes to frution but unexpectedly the cost strangly goes up, we wait another generation for it to be built, Then when it's built the next is we complain about how long it took to build or the cost or something or another.:D

Will this Ipod generation finally get the chance to step into a metro station in Dublin city centre "in a few years" and travel to the airport underground?

We have being to moon and back with the hearing the plans of these projects, and being woofully impressed with all these colourful detailed maps of what Ireland may look like in 2020 from the moon:D.

Is it fair to say It's just no excuse anymore.

Why is it so, in this country that we can't even build road and railways etc at a managable and reasonable time frame, when the money is now plentiful.
Now don't get me wrong money is being invested into our infastructure now and over the last few years. But for the amount invested does not meet the actual end results.
The money was not managed properly, with previous NDPs and now present T21 all unsucessful. this government has left us with a hole of E10billion of taxpayers money as a result. Just great is'nt it.

P.S
Yet we allow this government to get a generous pay rise this year (yet again)

I was bored:p

Cionnfhaolaidh

My predictions for 2010 (rail projects):

Completed in 2010:
Luas Line C1 - Docklands Extension
Luas Line B1 - Sandyford to Cherrywood

Under construction in 2010:
Luas Line B2 - Cherrywood to Bray Environs
Luas Line A1 - City West Extension

Delayed/cancelled in 2010: (predicted date)
Interconnector (2018)
Metro North (2017)
Metro West (2017)
Luas Line BX -St Stephens Green to Liffey Junction (2015)
Luas Line F - Lucan to City Centre (2015)

---

High probability that Luas Line BX and CIÉ's interconnector will be scrapped altogether when (not if) the money runs out. Metro North is doomed also - it will probably terminate at Drumcondra, if at all.

It's time to cut our losses and invest in a proper bus network.

E92

They really should do that, I mean buses are supposed to be cheap, so why not, put in plenty of additional bus lanes, and use the surplus money to upgrade our road network and also to extend our train network. I mean how can you justify having to vhange trains when going from the 2nd biggest city to the third in country, and why is there no rail link betweek Cork and Galway or Cork and Waterford when there is on to Tralee and Killarney of all places?

Just cause you spend more money on roads doesn't necessarily mean that you are neglecting public transport.

loyatemu

Cionnfhaolaidh wrote: »

My predictions for 2010 (rail projects):

Completed in 2010:
Luas Line C1 - Docklands Extension
Luas Line B1 - Sandyford to Cherrywood

well these are both under construction so they're obviously going to be completed.

Under construction in 2010:
Luas Line B2 - Cherrywood to Bray Environs
Luas Line A1 - City West Extension

Citywest is being privately funded and will probably go ahead. The Bray extension I have my doubts about - once the Cherrywood extension is running they'll realise there no extra capacity on the line.

Delayed/cancelled in 2010: (predicted date)
Interconnector (2018)
Metro North (2017)

Dempsey recently said he wanted to see the Interconnector fasttracked, while metro north is the flagship project and would only be dropped as a last resort.

Metro West (2017)
Luas Line BX -St Stephens Green to Liffey Junction (2015)
Luas Line F - Lucan to City Centre (2015)

I expect these all to be cancelled eventually

OTK

Also expect WRC phase 2 & 3 to be cancelled once Limerick-Galway attracts its predicted small no. of passengers vs an improved N18
Midleton to complete.
Possibly Navan to complete because of Dempsey.

An alternative view is that state infrastructure projects such as T21 will be invested in more heavily as the economy slows in an attempt to spend our way out of recession. (The Japanese approach)

dodgyme

Navan rail anybody?

bk

E92 wrote: »

They really should do that, I mean buses are supposed to be cheap, so why not, put in plenty of additional bus lanes, and use the surplus money to upgrade our road network and also to extend our train network.

E92 your showing a complete lack of knowledge about Dublin. Buses in Dublin are actually ok (certainly compared to Cork), however they really have reached their maximum capacity, the traffic and congestion is simply to bad.

Even in the bus lanes, there are jams due to the large number of buses using the bus lanes. This shows that the bus system is well beyond capacity.

To answer the OP's question, all the motorway projects look like they will be completed on time, many actually ahead of schedule. It is the rail based projects that are on shaky ground.

Metro North will definitely be completed as it is the most important project.

OTK wrote:

An alternative view is that state infrastructure projects such as T21 will be invested in more heavily as the economy slows in an attempt to spend our way out of recession. (The Japanese approach)

Actually most economists agree that this is the a very good thing to do. Typically infrastructure is cheaper to build during a recession then during a period of growth and it helps bolster the economy.

paulm17781

bk wrote: »

E92 your showing a complete lack of knowledge about Dublin. Buses in Dublin are actually ok (certainly compared to Cork), however they really have reached their maximum capacity, the traffic and congestion is simply to bad.

I couldn't disagree more. In London buses are approximately every 4 minutes. Here is is approximately every 20. Doubling the bus fleet would make a huge difference. If people didn't have to wait for ages and squeeze onto a cramped bus, more people would use buses. That said Interconnector, Metro etc. is needed, the buses should just be bought to help.

markpb

bk wrote: »

Even in the bus lanes, there are jams due to the large number of buses using the bus lanes. This shows that the bus system is well beyond capacity.

I don't think that's true at all. The two main problems are that buses stop for too long at stops and bus lanes in Dublin are generally rubbish. It only takes one idiot parked in the bus lane or one driver who can't merge into the public lane to hold up an entire junction and stop several buses. Outside the city centre, you're more likely to see a completely empty bus lane because the buses can't get onto it than you are to see a bus lane completely congested with buses. Both of those cause bunching which means the network isn't being properly served.

Chris_533976

Road projects are well ahead of schedule. Lots are coming in almost a full year in advance. They should be finished early, barring major problems.

That said, the interurbans were supposed to be finished in 2006, so praise for getting them done, not praise for being late.

jank

The Cork, Limerick and Galway interurbans should be done alright by 2010 ish
Not sure about Waterford though?

On another note will midleton ever see the raillink ti was promised 5 years ago!?
What the FU^K is keeping them. Its only a few sations and 11 kilometers of track that needs to be refurbished.

They years tick by but everything stays the same, saying that though the NRA seems to have turned a corner but the RPA will have a similar "learning" curve!

anon00

2010, yer havin a laugh. add 10 years to that IMO. this is berties government remember.

what the nation needs is motorways linking up galway, limerick, cork, dublin et al. not just suburban motorways, all the crashes happen on the countrys back roads which are muck and handle most of the traffic.

anyone who thinks this will be completed by 3 years is dreaming......alot:rolleyes:

Bards

anon00 wrote: »

2010, yer havin a laugh. add 10 years to that IMO. this is berties government remember.
anyone who thinks this will be completed by 3 years is dreaming......alot:rolleyes:

with this your second post since Dec 2006 I think it is you who are spening too much time in the land of Nod:D

Zoney

OTK wrote: »

Also expect WRC phase 2 & 3 to be cancelled once Limerick-Galway attracts its predicted small no. of passengers vs an improved N18

For the umpteenth time, yes it is unlikely the train service will be superb, but buses will still be limited to 80km/h despite the dual carriageway, the new dual carriageway route will be longer as it actually goes to the new N6 near Athenry, the buses have to detour off the new road into Shannon, Ennis, Gort, etc.

Even for private cars, both Galway and Limerick are disasters to get in/out of all the time, and the road upgrade will soon be less of a big deal with the vast increases in traffic (some routes in this country are seeing 10% year on year traffic growth) - again, both cities being bottlenecks as final destinations.

With regular services, as are likely to be there from the start, Limerick-Galway rail will likely attract average enough passenger numbers - not a resounding success but not a flop either. Of course, it would be far bigger a success if Limerick-Cork was a sane trip by rail, or if Shannon was connected in the middle.

Ham'nd'egger

Where the WRC will do quite well at is having connections to Galway-Dublin bound services from it, as well as commuter traffic. Galway will be getting 10-12 services a day from Dublin in the near future so 5/6 connections to it will open up north Clare and mid Galway to Dublin more so than Limerick. Recently, the Nenagh branch was allocated some extra services and upgrading so things in the South West are looking good for trains. I'd guess, Autumn 2008 for WRC part one.

Middleton, I understand, is being held up due to a combination of Irish Rail signalling and tracklaying staff working full pelt on the WRC, Portarlington and the Rosslare lines and a lack of rolling stock to put on the service short term. The line will be ready IMO, early 2009 as it will include upgrades to the Cobh services.

Locally, there will be a massive delay pending on Luas BX over the Broadstone line that will end up in the courts if it isn't dealt with soon. Some of the bus servicing will also need to be moved to a new site, which is on a long arm, if not finger. 2015 at the earliest for any news on same.

Cherrywood and Citywest, one is looking at 2008/10, interconnector mid 2012, Kildare project, early 2009 (Work is already started on this some time ago).

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. In London buses are approximately every 4 minutes. Here is is approximately every 20. Doubling the bus fleet would make a huge difference. If people didn't have to wait for ages and squeeze onto a cramped bus, more people would use buses. That said Interconnector, Metro etc. is needed, the buses should just be bought to help.

Comparing bus routes in London and Dublin is not really valid, as bus routes in London tend to be far shorter than those in Dublin due to the very extensive
rail network (Underground and Overground). Dublin on the other hand largely relies on a network of (generally) far longer bus routes that get snarled up in traffic due to poor bus priority, a variety of immovable pinch points, and the far greater numbers of cars on our roads these days.

As a side point, there are plenty of bus routes in London that operate at lower frequencies of up to 15 minutes.

paulm17781

KC61 wrote: »

Comparing bus routes in London and Dublin is not really valid, as bus routes in London tend to be far shorter than those in Dublin due to the very extensive
rail network (Underground and Overground). Dublin on the other hand largely relies on a network of (generally) far longer bus routes that get snarled up in traffic due to poor bus priority, a variety of immovable pinch points, and the far greater numbers of cars on our roads these days.

No I totally agree with that. My point is that there is absolutely no harm in investing in more buses. This should not be at the expense of other projects though.

OTK

Hamndegger wrote: »

interconnector mid 2012

optimistic? the government is quoting 2015

OTK

Zoney wrote: »

For the umpteenth time, yes it is unlikely the train service will be superb, but buses will still be limited to 80km/h despite the dual carriageway,

This speed limit is anomalous and an obvious candidate for change. The limit in the UK is 97km/h for buses on DC and 112 on motorways.

the new dual carriageway route will be longer as it actually goes to the new N6 near Athenry, the buses have to detour off the new road into Shannon, Ennis, Gort, etc.

A point-to-point DC-only express service is likely to be provided by BE or a private operator.

Even for private cars, both Galway and Limerick are disasters to get in/out of all the time, and the road upgrade will soon be less of a big deal with the vast increases in traffic (some routes in this country are seeing 10% year on year traffic growth) - again, both cities being bottlenecks as final destinations.

Are there not N18 bus lanes entering both Galway and Limerick?

With regular services, as are likely to be there from the start, Limerick-Galway rail will likely attract average enough passenger numbers - not a resounding success but not a flop either.

As you probably know, a rail demand study was carried out prior to agreeing to this route being re-instated and the negative recommendations were ignored. Maybe they were wrong.

1huge1

OTK wrote: »

Also expect WRC phase 2 & 3 to be cancelled once Limerick-Galway attracts its predicted small no. of passengers vs an improved N18
Midleton to complete.
Possibly Navan to complete because of Dempsey.

An alternative view is that state infrastructure projects such as T21 will be invested in more heavily as the economy slows in an attempt to spend our way out of recession. (The Japanese approach)

Spend our way out of recession like the japanese you say, does that work from your experience?

1huge1

jank wrote: »

The Cork, Limerick and Galway interurbans should be done alright by 2010 ish
Not sure about Waterford though?

On another note will midleton ever see the raillink ti was promised 5 years ago!?
What the FU^K is keeping them. Its only a few sations and 11 kilometers of track that needs to be refurbished.

They years tick by but everything stays the same, saying that though the NRA seems to have turned a corner but the RPA will have a similar "learning" curve!

Yes but thats connecting those cities with dublin, while galway and limerick will be connected, it still leaves cork with no good connection to Limerick (and Galway), the current road is a country road as far as im concerned.

Mint Sauce

one thing that puzzles me is this, all this ambitious talk of linking OCS with an underground/metro link to the airport, why not link it to busarus/connolly with a service to huston, ie, the central rail and bus termius, with a stop on OCS,

with the current plan all the people who travel from other parts of the country inc my self would still need to get on a bus or the luas to reach this link

or am i just being totally niave

Chris_533976

1huge1 wrote: »

Yes but thats connecting those cities with dublin, while galway and limerick will be connected, it still leaves cork with no good connection to Limerick (and Galway), the current road is a country road as far as im concerned.

Cork to Galway will be done eventually, but that lot is on the long finger as it doesnt link up with Dublin. Expect Galway to Limerick to be done before Cork - Limerick. Apparently the Crusheen - Gort section is due to start in 2008, but that could just have been electioneering.

Cork - Limerick wont be touched until after the Interurbans. Cork - Mallow should be low priority, it needs DCing eventually but is fine for now as there are more needy projects. Mallow to Croom should be prioritized, its an absolute disgrace, especially around Buttevant.

Ham'nd'egger

OTK wrote: »

optimistic? the government is quoting 2015

Oops, meant to say I'd expect work to begin 2012.

Carawaystick

OTK wrote: »

This speed limit is anomalous and an obvious candidate for change. The limit in the UK is 97km/h for buses on DC and 112 on motorways. A point-to-point DC-only express service is likely to be provided by BE or a private operator.

Are there not N18 bus lanes entering both Galway and Limerick?

Bus Eireann coaches were limited to 100 kmh back in the day, certain co kilkenny co busses have passed me when I was doing 70 mph...

The N18 doesn't go to Galway, N6 goes from Oranmore in, N18 goes to I think Claregalway.
There is a new Buslane from the Galway Clinic into the top of renmore hill at the Bons Secours, past merlin park & GIT. Actually this isn't the N6 anymore either, the N6 goes via Ballybrit Terryland and Quincentenial bridge.

nordydan

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Cork to Galway will be done eventually, but that lot is on the long finger as it doesnt link up with Dublin. Expect Galway to Limerick to be done before Cork - Limerick. Apparently the Crusheen - Gort section is due to start in 2008, but that could just have been electioneering.

Cork - Limerick wont be touched until after the Interurbans. Cork - Mallow should be low priority, it needs DCing eventually but is fine for now as there are more needy projects. Mallow to Croom should be prioritized, its an absolute disgrace, especially around Buttevant.

Both final remaining N18 schemes will be starting next year. It is not entirely inconceivable that the Galway Limerick Road will be finished at the end of 2010. This would make sense due to the tie in of the N6/N18. I would imagine then that work on the Galway-Tuam scheme will commence thereafter.