religious families?

still learning

just looking for some of your thoughts or experiences
my girlfriend of years is currently broody due to one of our friends having a lovely little baby .The thing is any time we talk about it we end up arguing about christening the child - I want to let my kids decide for themselves what if any religion they choose and of course she wants to do the whole baptism thing
anyone else any experience of this??

Scofflaw

still learning wrote: »

just looking for some of your thoughts or experiences
my girlfriend of years is currently broody due to one of our friends having a lovely little baby .The thing is any time we talk about it we end up arguing about christening the child - I want to let my kids decide for themselves what if any religion they choose and of course she wants to do the whole baptism thing
anyone else any experience of this??

A few of my friends and family have been through this one. It's generally agreed that, if you're an atheist, you're really just talking about a splash of water and a family get-together. It's not like we're Satanists, after all. And the child is free to choose whatever religion they prefer when they're old enough - in the interim the more pressing issue will actually be whether he/she has to go to a religious school. If you want to get into one of the properly secular ones like Educate Together, I would suggest getting the child's name down at birth, or ideally before. Otherwise, you may in any case find that your local school's enrollment policy depends on baptism. 98% of the schools are Catholic-run, if there's a choice.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Hivemind187

Scofflaw wrote: »

A few of my friends and family have been through this one. It's generally agreed that, if you're an atheist, you're really just talking about a splash of water and a family get-together. It's not like we're Satanists, after all. And the child is free to choose whatever religion they prefer when they're old enough - in the interim the more pressing issue will actually be whether he/she has to go to a religious school. If you want to get into one of the properly secular ones like Educate Together, I would suggest getting the child's name down at birth, or ideally before. Otherwise, you may in any case find that your local school's enrollment policy depends on baptism. 98% of the schools are Catholic-run, if there's a choice.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw ... will you lay off the satanists please? They don't believe in god after all

lostexpectation

challenge her on her beliefs and don't accept 'its the done thing' as an answer

Dades

How does she know the child will be catholic?

lostexpectation wrote: »

challenge her on her beliefs and don't accept 'its the done thing' as an answer

Challenge her on her beliefs and then get any child baptised, because otherwise there will be no winners.

It doesn't have to be a big family affair with you sulking in the corner. You just need a couple of godparents there. If she's serious about the religion thing then that shouldn't matter. And as scofflaw says - at least then you won't have completely restricted your choice of schools, too.

John Wine

still learning wrote: »

just looking for some of your thoughts or experiences
my girlfriend of years is currently broody due to one of our friends having a lovely little baby .The thing is any time we talk about it we end up arguing about christening the child - I want to let my kids decide for themselves what if any religion they choose and of course she wants to do the whole baptism thing
anyone else any experience of this??

People rarely agree exactly on this stuff. It's usually one has an opinion and the other doesn't mind. If you clash on it, nothing wrong with that. You can work through it or compromise.

Child comes first surely, so what's best for the child in both of your opinions?

Thing about this way:
1. Education - baptism can affect where you go to school. This is not the way it should be, but it's not going to change for at least another 10 years.

2. Being like everyone else - kids may not like being the only one not making communion, or may they revel in it.

Either way, I would imagine the child will make up their own mind when they hit teenage years if not before that.

After there's loads more for couples to disagree on:
1. Pocket money.
2. Public or Private schools
3. What sports they play
4. Eat meat or be a Veggie
5. How much TV they are allowed watch?
7. How much Santa should bring?

Enjoy :-)

Dave!

If and when I have kids, they better get into an educate together school!

Just reading these posts reminds me of how absurd it is that people actually have to baptise their child in order to ensure they get into a school, and in order to fit in they have to make their communion, confirmation, confession. It's a bit mad.

John Wine

DaveMcG wrote: »

If and when I have kids, they better get into an educate together school!

Just reading these posts reminds me of how absurd it is that people actually have to baptise their child in order to ensure they get into a school, and in order to fit in they have to make their communion, confirmation, confession. It's a bit mad.

What would happen if they were angry with you for hiding faith / religion from you?

Is it not better to expose them to it and of course question it with them rather than to effectively ban it or exclude it from experience / analysis?

Dave!

Who says I'm hiding them from it? I'm all for religious education, but the child's right to education should not be predicated on their being a member of a certain religion.

Besides, why should I choose to send them to a Catholic school to expose them to religion? If I do that then they could grow up and decide that Islam is for them, and be angry at me for sending them to school with hell-bound Jesus freaks.

Pompey Magnus

Is baptism the only issue or does your girlfriend want to bring the child up Christian? I don't think there is any harm in having the child baptised, I wouldn't really object to it myself. It is more of a family day out than anything and if your girlfriend wants it then I don't think it is an issue worthy of having an argument about. However if she wants to bring the child up religious then that is another story altogether...

PDN

When all is said and done it's just splashing a bit of water over the child. It's not like it actually means anything.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

rofl

Hivemind187

PDN wrote: »

When all is said and done it's just splashing a bit of water over the child. It's not like it actually means anything.

Thats a pretty bold statement from a Christian. Or were you being ironic.

Asiaprod

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Thats a pretty bold statement from a Christian. Or were you being ironic.

Factual imo, it will only ever actually mean what you make it to mean. Or even the other way around, you make it actually mean anything.

Beruthiel

PDN wrote: »

When all is said and done it's just splashing a bit of water over the child. It's not like it actually means anything.

I've just reported you to God for that one, he's fairly pissed off.

John Wine

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Thats a pretty bold statement from a Christian. Or were you being ironic.

I thnk where PDN is coming from in his Church they don't baptize kids. Most Evangelical Churches are like this.

robindch

PDN wrote:

When all is said and done it's just splashing a bit of water over the child. It's not like it actually means anything.

Finding it difficult to shake off the entrails of atheism, eh, PDN?

Ickle Magoo

OP,

I didn't & wouldn't get my children Christened or baptised - I don't care what people are trying to say it is "just" - to me it is a religious ceremony (clue's in the title) & I don't follow a religion, so getting my children Christened just so the rellies can have a knees up never entered my head - if that's all it's about, why not just have the party?!

We got a few comments from my husbands family, none from mine (I think it's more of an issue here) but when all is said & done, they are our kids & we raise them the way we want, not for the benefit of anyone else or because of the horrendously old fashioned Irish school system.

It really depends on your GF & her beliefs...my DH isn't religious either so I didn't have to have to go through the whole church wedding/Christening debacle, thankfully. There has to be some compromise if she feels strongly about it. I second the school choice, we had to put the kids names down at birth for our local ET school & they weren't first on the list! :eek:

PDN

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Thats a pretty bold statement from a Christian. Or were you being ironic.

Not ironic at all. I don't think that splashing water over a child, or indeed an adult, without their consent means anything at all. Even where an adult willingly undergoes baptism it's only an external symbol of a decision they are making inside. You can baptise a cat if you wish, or train a parrot to recite Bible verses, but it doesn't mean anything.

Scofflaw

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

OP,

I didn't & wouldn't get my children Christened or baptised - I don't care what people are trying to say it is "just" - to me it is a religious ceremony (clue's in the title) & I don't follow a religion, so getting my children Christened just so the rellies can have a knees up never entered my head - if that's all it's about, why not just have the party?!

We got a few comments from my husbands family, none from mine (I think it's more of an issue here) but when all is said & done, they are our kids & we raise them the way we want, not for the benefit of anyone else or because of the horrendously old fashioned Irish school system.

It really depends on your GF & her beliefs...my DH isn't religious either so I didn't have to have to go through the whole church wedding/Christening debacle, thankfully. There has to be some compromise if she feels strongly about it. I second the school choice, we had to put the kids names down at birth for our local ET school & they weren't first on the list! :eek:

I think you've unintentionally outlined the most likely resolution of this question. The poster is male, so whatever his GF wants is what will happen.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Splendour

lostexpectation wrote: »

challenge her on her beliefs and don't accept 'its the done thing' as an answer

Very good point.
I had my kids baptised as at the time I was a practising Catholic and really took on board what was going on during the ceremony.

I have been to many Christenings were I want to scream at the priest and the parents of the baby involved because everone present at the ceremony knows what's being said is bull. They are doing simply because 'it's the done thing', or worse, for superstitious reasons.

Now that I am no longer a Catholic, I don't believe in baptising babies at all.

still learning

thanks for all your replys
ye know the main reason I think she would get them baptised is she's worried "what people would think"
and when I start to think about it the thing that pisses me of the most is the bull**** the church fed to the last couple of generations about babies that wern't christened not going to heaven - I mean I'm pretty sure my granmother believes that the baby she miscarried is stuck in some terrible place
its a shame

Wacker

still learning wrote: »

I'm pretty sure my granmother believes that the baby she miscarried is stuck in some terrible place
its a shame

The Catholic Church changed their teaching on that subject a while ago. Now, unbaptised babies go to Heaven, rather than Limbo. No one goes to Limbo any more. I always thought that was quite an accomplishment - they removed a whole plane of reality!

I'm not sure if I'll ever have kids, so I'd have to subsequently re-evaluate the education problem, but I would really be against getting children baptised. I think the ceremony of Baptism would actually mean something if people chose to get baptised themselves.

Hivemind187

Wacker wrote: »

The Catholic Church changed their teaching on that subject a while ago. Now, unbaptised babies go to Heaven, rather than Limbo. No one goes to Limbo any more. I always thought that was quite an accomplishment - they removed a whole plane of reality!

I'm not sure if I'll ever have kids, so I'd have to subsequently re-evaluate the education problem, but I would really be against getting children baptised. I think the ceremony of Baptism would actually mean something if people chose to get baptised themselves.

Limbo ... the Majorca of the theological world.

Scofflaw

Wacker wrote: »

The Catholic Church changed their teaching on that subject a while ago. Now, unbaptised babies go to Heaven, rather than Limbo. No one goes to Limbo any more. I always thought that was quite an accomplishment - they removed a whole plane of reality!

Better than that - apparently research theologians determined that it didn't exist and never had.

I love the idea of "research theologians" - perhaps in some Vatican laboratory, building the Metatron Supernatural Collider to study high-energy holy ghostleons and determine once and for all whether there is sufficient evidence that Limbo fits into the Catholic Standard Model. Finally announcing their results to a shocked Holy Father, who asks them whether they're sure they simply haven't set the bar too low?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Hivemind187

Scofflaw wrote: »

Better than that - apparently research theologians determined that it didn't exist and never had.

I love the idea of "research theologians" - perhaps in some Vatican laboratory, building the Metatron Supernatural Collider to study high-energy holy ghostleons and determine once and for all whether Limbo fits into the Catholic Standard Model.

cordially,
Scofflaw

+1 mental picture of the week. "Holy boffin's"

DerKaiser

Ok, I as an Athiest wouldn't like to baptise my child, but think of the childs future, when other kids in his/her class at school are making communion/confirmation and getting money and pressies the unbaptised child will be left out, it sounds like I'm saying conform for the sake of a quiet life, but you have to think of the kid too, I'd say if it means that much to your girlfriend do it and let the child make up their own when they make their confirmation

Dades

Hivemind187 wrote: »

+1 mental picture of the week. "Holy boffin's"

The "Limbo" Lab; sandwiched between "Vampires" and "Exorcisms"...

Zillah

DerKaiser wrote: »

Ok, I as an Athiest wouldn't like to baptise my child, but think of the childs future, when other kids in his/her class at school are making communion/confirmation and getting money and pressies the unbaptised child will be left out, it sounds like I'm saying conform for the sake of a quiet life, but you have to think of the kid too, I'd say if it means that much to your girlfriend do it and let the child make up their own when they make their confirmation

I hope my child would roll their eyes at such silliness and come to a restaurant for a nice dinner while all those other saps are stuck performing their ancient rituals.

DerKaiser

DerKaiser wrote: »

Ok, I as an Athiest wouldn't like to baptise my child, but think of the childs future, when other kids in his/her class at school are making communion/confirmation and getting money and pressies the unbaptised child will be left out

You know, I don't think the religion is supposed to be about getting pressies :rolleyes:
Leave them out and let them have a nice day out with a dinner and so on with the family instead.

Scofflaw

Dades wrote: »

The "Limbo" Lab; sandwiched between "Vampires" and "Exorcisms"...

Hmm. I guess it would be OK to torture demons for information about Hell - updating Dante. Perhaps holy-waterboarding?

cordially,
Scofflaw

DerKaiser

bluewolf wrote: »

You know, I don't think the religion is supposed to be about getting pressies :rolleyes:

Course it is, why else do Christians get together every 25th of december to celebrate the birth of Santa?

lostexpectation

still learning wrote: »

thanks for all your replys
ye know the main reason I think she would get them baptised is she's worried "what people would think"
and when I start to think about it the thing that pisses me of the most is the bull**** the church fed to the last couple of generations about babies that wern't christened not going to heaven - I mean I'm pretty sure my granmother believes that the baby she miscarried is stuck in some terrible place
its a shame

well thats not a good enough reason you are in position to refuse.

Kernunos

I was actually having this conversation with a friend the other day, wondering what would i do when,god forbid, i actually have children that could be baptised. I think that the whole baptism thing is just an excuse to kind of introduce the baby to the extended family and i know in my family at least, it is often the first time the many of them get to see the baby. So perhaps hold off on the actual Christian ceremony, and just through a family gettogether. You could still have Godparent (perhaps just call them a different name) but just not involve the Church. That way traditions like silver spoons and grandmothers shawls would not have to die

Nevyn

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Scofflaw ... will you lay off the satanists please? They don't believe in god after all

That depends on the type of satanist.

DerKaiser wrote: »

Ok, I as an Athiest wouldn't like to baptise my child, but think of the childs future, when other kids in his/her class at school are making communion/confirmation and getting money and pressies the unbaptised child will be left out, it sounds like I'm saying conform for the sake of a quiet life, but you have to think of the kid too, I'd say if it means that much to your girlfriend do it and let the child make up their own when they make their confirmation

So you won't inform and parent you child but let it just follow along with everyone else cos they are doing it.

Hivemind187

Thaedydal wrote: »

That depends on the type of satanist.

Difference being "satanist" generally referring to the LaVey Church of Satan system which believes in no such nonsense as deities yet embraces dogma and ritual as useful psychological tools for various thing from self realisation (whatever that is) to cleansing your mind of the desire to hurt an enemy.

A Satan Worshipper, which is the thing you were intending to refer to I believe, does believe in God and Satan as actual entities and tries to channel their influences and power etc for whatever purposes suit them.

One is a philosophical system that is fully aware of its own mild hyporcrisy whereas the other is a religion with no specific or well known system of beliefs etc.

qwertplaywert

DerKaiser wrote: »

Ok, I as an Athiest wouldn't like to baptise my child, but think of the childs future, when other kids in his/her class at school are making communion/confirmation and getting money and pressies the unbaptised child will be left out, it sounds like I'm saying conform for the sake of a quiet life, but you have to think of the kid too, I'd say if it means that much to your girlfriend do it and let the child make up their own when they make their confirmation

So if a bunch of your sons classmates were raping someone, its okay for him to join in, just for he can fit in?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

if he didn't, they might kill him in case he ratted them out.

beans

I wouldn't be happy making vows before a Catholic priest and shrugging it off as meaningless or inconsequential. to me that would be quite disrespectful of their beliefs. Similarly people taking communion to keep up appearances, when they hold no Catholic beliefs other than those imposed on them as a child.

Something as important as accepting Christ is not something a child can physically do, certainly not something I would do for my child. If someone chooses this later, that's their perogative and best of luck with it.

So for me, this would be a no-no. But having said that, when the lady I wish to marry turns to me and springs such a situation on me, I don't know how I'd react. I know how i'd like to react, but...

Dades

beans wrote: »

But having said that, when the lady I wish to marry turns to me and springs such a situation on me, I don't know how I'd react. I know how i'd like to react, but...

Therein lies the rub.

Myksyk

Isn't it a bitch when we have to actually make a decision in real life as opposed to board life!! I think I'm a pragmatist at heart and I would be willing to have a child baptised if it meant that I had a better choice of schools etc. At the end of the day the kid will make up their own mind. I got baptised and genuine attempts were made to inculcate the catholic faith into my little being ... look what good it did!

beans

I gather from conversations here that this has been done to death elsewhere on the forum, but in a nutshell, can you be refused from a Catholic school if you're not baptised? Apologies, I remember a million-page thread but don't remember the nub of the argument

stereoroid

Basically, if the school is over-subscribed, and the Catholic school administrators have to choose between two kids, one baptised, one unbaptised... Independent article here.

Scofflaw

stereoroid wrote: »

Basically, if the school is over-subscribed, and the Catholic school administrators have to choose between two kids, one baptised, one unbaptised... Independent article here.

It's slightly more insidious, in that they can put a Catholic child on the waiting list before a non-Catholic - and in general, they will also put a Protestant above an unbaptised child. The increase in uncertainty for the atheist parent is quite large, because almost every school is notionally over-subscribed, a result of parents putting their child's name down at three of four schools.

cordially,
Scofflaw

beans

Aye, with that in mind I would probably opt for baptism. Ideally I'd choose to raise any children in a society where this wouldn't be an issue, but failing an exodus I wouldn't want to do anything that would restrict my kids' choices down the line.

Ridiculous that this is even an issue tbh...

Eglinton

Can you not just say your child is Catholic on the application form? Scanners/Printers/Photoshop are all great for bastismal certs if needs be. It's not a legal document so it's fair game. You'd just be forging a fictional document for a fictional religion.

I cannot see how a primary school can legally re-arrange a waiting list based on water splashing. The day will come that a serious legal mind who's athiest will try to enrol their child in one of these schools and I think a new precedent will then be set in the courtrooms of Ireland.

There is also the option of the state taking over the Catholic schools altogether. They already pay the wages etc.

The price should be somewhere in the region of 'Free'.
Simple choice - Hand over the schools or the State stops paying the Clerical Abuse Victims compensation.




A bit of a rant I know!

robindch

Eglinton wrote:

]I cannot see how a primary school can legally re-arrange a waiting list based on water splashing

This should be put into the forum FAQ

Yes, it's perfectly legal for a school to do this. It's there in black and white in the current (slightly inaccurately named) Equal Status Act:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1195687272

See subsection 3(c). It's religious discrimination, at the taxpayer's expense.

Eglinton

Thanks for the link. That's rather dubious legal language. It could surely be challenged particularly with reference to international laws concerning a right to an education.

I'm surprised it's such a recent Act. Although perhaps that particular section is a legacy from previous Acts.



p.s. Could a Mod please correct the title on this thread? It's really irritating.

Dades

Eglinton wrote: »

p.s. Could a Mod please correct the title on this thread? It's really irritating.

Done! No longer "family's" for those who didn't even notice.

PDN

Myksyk wrote: »

Isn't it a bitch when we have to actually make a decision in real life as opposed to board life!!

No, I think it applies to male children just as much as females.

Scofflaw

PDN wrote: »

No, I think it applies to male children just as much as females.

Needs more salt.

cordially,
Scofflaw