Angle-shooting

In response to a request from Roundtower: here it is. Just so there is a more balanced poll here.

Please do not comment on the nature of the poll or what it may/may not refer to. It is genuinely meant as a means to get a read on peoples feelings about this area of the game and nothing else.


OK: for the purposes of this poll we shall define angle shooting as the following:

The act of employing any means that are not technically outside the rules of the game in order to win a pot and/or incite a player to make an error in his play, be it by calling/betting/raising/folding. This includes "accidental" raises for example.

thechamp87

Gamesmanship is sometimes used during hands, within reason, during the hand. Once betting is completed after the river has been dealt, gamesmanship can no longer come into play.

Sorry, I know originally this sounded like I was encouraging angle-shooting and I didn't read over it before I submitted the post. I hate to see angle-shooting being used. Apologies.

Hitman Actual

thechamp87 wrote: »

Angle-shooting is fine, within reason, during the hand. Once betting is completed after the river has been dealt, ange-shooting no longer comes into play. Angle shooting is acceptable during the hand. In my view you cannot angle shoot, once the betting is complete after the river, as the hand is over.

But I think we need to differentiate between angle-shooting and general gamesmanship. Gamesmanship, imo, is what happens during a hand i.e. using speech play trying to get a reaction off your opponent, etc (which I'm sure the majority of players are fine with). Angle-shooting implies a more cynical, unethical approach to winning a pot.

Edit: So my point is, for the purposes of the poll we should define angle-shooting as that cynical, unethical approach to winning the pot.

nice1franko

can u add an option for what the champ said

I agree champ, but this poll seriously is not about the RDS.

I did not narrow the definition of angle shooting so it could encompass any view that any player had on what it was, whether you consider post-river actions as angle shooting or not is, as all things are, a matter of opinion.

As I stated in another thread I have voted number 4 here.

Please do not discuss recent specifics here.

More amusing angle shoots (I can so see a Joe O'Neill "have you got a 6?" reference coming up here) and hands are fine!

phantom_lord

thechamp87 wrote: »

Angle-shooting is fine, within reason, during the hand. Once betting is completed after the river has been dealt, ange-shooting no longer comes into play. Angle shooting is acceptable during the hand. In my view you cannot angle shoot, once the betting is complete after the river, as the hand is over.

your understanding of angle shooting must be very different to mine.

Edit: So my point is, for the purposes of the poll we should define angle-shooting as that cynical, unethical approach to winning the pot.

This is what we're talking about right?

thechamp87

lenny_leonard wrote: »

But I think we need to differentiate between angle-shooting and general gamesmanship. Gamesmanship, imo, is what happens during a hand i.e. using speech play trying to get a reaction off your opponent, etc (which I'm sure the majority of players are fine with). Angle-shooting implies a more cynical, unethical approach to winning a pot.

Edit: So my point is, for the purposes of the poll we should define angle-shooting as that cynical, unethical approach to winning the pot.

I fully agree with your differentiation but as these were not differentiated in the OP, I looked at it from a general point of view. As I said though, I agree with you.

Basically, there is absolutely NO room for angleshooting or gamesmanship after betting on the river has taken place.

phantom_lord

phantom_lord wrote: »

your understanding of angle shooting must be very different to mine.

Case in point.

Ste05

I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say angle-shooting during a hand is fine. Speech play and the likes ISN'T angle-shooting, it's just part of the game, it's a gentlemen's game and should be conducted as such, IMO there is, and should be no room for angle-shooting of any kind, before, during or after a hand.

The only thing IMO that needs to be discussed is what actually constitutes angle-shooting and what is considered "part of the game". I really can't see anyone with any integrity endorsing "angle-shooting".

5starpool

nice1franko wrote: »

can u add an option for what the champ said

No for several reasons.

1. Within the hand you try and get your opponents to call/fold in different ways, whether this is by using speechplay or trying to give out fake tells. This does not however amount to the same thing as showing someone else your hand and winking as this is against the rules. If you use speechplay or some other crap after the betting is finished in order to get someone to fold a better hand then this is angle shooting.
2. I can't.

It is not the worst thing ever, as physically cheating is, but angle shooting in it's real form is horrible to see.

zuutroy

What about Jamie Gold during his ME run, when he told people exactly what he had....does that come under the gamesmanship bracket?

thechamp87

phantom_lord wrote: »

your understanding of angle shooting must be very different to mine.

as i said to lenny, there was no differentiation between angle-shooting and gamesmanship in the OP. I don't angle-shoot, I can't recall a time where I have ever used this tactic, and it is something I really hate to see it being used. However, to a certain extent, we all know that gamesmanship often occurs during a hand.

All I was saying in my post was that whatever goes on during a hand ends once betting has been completed on the river.

OK, I have edited the OP, if there are any suggestions for amendments speak now or forever hold your peace.

Hitman Actual

zuutroy wrote: »

What about Jamie Gold during his ME run, when he told people exactly what he had....does that come under the gamesmanship bracket?

Yes, definitely.

ocallagh

Deleted User wrote: »

In response to a request from Roundtower: here it is. Just so there is a more balanced poll here.

Please do not comment on the nature of the poll or what it may/may not refer to. It is genuinely meant as a means to get a read on peoples feelings about this area of the game and nothing else.


OK: for the purposes of this poll we shall define angle shooting as the following:

The act of employing any means that are not technically outside the rules of the game in order to win a pot and/or incite a player to make an error in his play, be it by calling/betting/raising/folding. This includes "accidental" raises for example.

Angle shooting is too broad a term. Some angle shoots will never be ruled out of the game, and others should definitely become a rule. Depending on the severity of the angle shoot I would change my answer to this poll.

Mellor

ocallagh wrote: »

Angle shooting is too broad a term. Some angle shoots will never be ruled out of the game, and others should definitely become a rule. Depending on the severity of the angle shoot I would change my answer to this poll.

Care to given an example of either or both even.
The things I consider angle shooting have no place in the game and are against the rules and/or exploit rules to an unfair advantage.
I suppose it comes down to the def of angle shooting.

ocallagh

Mellor wrote: »

Care to given an example of either or both even.
The things I consider angle shooting have no place in the game and are against the rules and/or exploit rules to an unfair advantage.
I suppose it comes down to the def of angle shooting.

That is exactly the problem. Everyone has a different opinion on whether something is an angle shot.

Making a forward motion out of turn before your opponent acts (in an attempt to fool them into thinking you will call their bet) would be an angle shot in some peoples books. I would class it under both options A, B and D depending on the situation.

Recent events would be classed under E.

Some people might consider speech play angle shooting but I would class it under option A (within reason of course)

Continually calling the clock after 30 seconds when you are not in the hand to tilt players would be B/D.

Verbal abuse and harassment would be B D or E depending on the level of abuse.

Refusing to move from your position at the table when short-handed to allow others more space would be B.

Throwing your hole cards at another players in an attempt to muck both would be E.

All the above could be classed as angle shooting, but everyone has their own definition of what an angle shoot is. I like the poll, but I think it needs more clarification.

hotspur

I agree that angle shooting refers to too many things that exist on a continuum of acceptability. Also I think it's a really really terrible term that does little to describe what it actually is.

I don't wish to come across like an ass but the poll is essentially "angle shooting is..." and then you say "let's define angle shooting as..." this is an exercise in tautology. One's definition of angle shooting completely determines which poll option (s) you choose.

Also several of the poll options are not remotely mutually exclusive or on a continuum, e.g.
*Poor sportsmanship but the rules say it is ok
*It is wrong and I disagree with it

Flushdraw

I didnt read the thread yet because theres been so many threads about angle shooting/cheating etc over the last week its just getting monotonous at this stage.

I always find it funny when live/online polls include an option for i dont card/no opinion etc and people bother their asses voting for it!

Mellor

ocallagh wrote: »

Making a forward motion out of turn before your opponent acts (in an attempt to fool them into thinking you will call their bet) would be an angle shot in some peoples books. I would class it under both options A, B and D depending on the situation.
I suppose it depends on situation

Recent events would be classed under E.
Angle shot

Some people might consider speech play angle shooting but I would class it under option A (within reason of course)
Speech play isn't angle shooting, of course some speach play can cross a line and this is unacceptable, not angle shooting

Continually calling the clock after 30 seconds when you are not in the hand to tilt players would be B/D.
Angle shooting

Verbal abuse and harassment would be B D or E depending on the level of abuse.
Not angle shooting, it isn't exploiting a rule. Its still wrong but for being a prick

Refusing to move from your position at the table when short-handed to allow others more space would be B.
Not so much angle shooting, more refusing to give up an edge, sort of exploitive though

Throwing your hole cards at another players in an attempt to muck both would be E.
Angle

All the above could be classed as angle shooting, but everyone has their own definition of what an angle shoot is. I like the poll, but I think it needs more clarification.
Some people may class them all as angle shooting, I don't (not them all)

My 2c

hotspur

hotspur wrote: »

I agree that angle shooting refers to too many things that exist on a continuum of acceptability. Also I think it's a really really terrible term that does little to describe what it actually is.

I don't wish to come across like an ass but the poll is essentially "angle shooting is..." and then you say "let's define angle shooting as..." this is an exercise in tautology. One's definition of angle shooting completely determines which poll option (s) you choose.

Also several of the poll options are not remotely mutually exclusive or on a continuum, e.g.
*Poor sportsmanship but the rules say it is ok
*It is wrong and I disagree with it

I agree completely with the you here and I originally did not include a definition for this reason.

As for the tautology, I took the poll verbatim from another thread and I suppose a more scientific approach (the scale of agreement, i.e "I strongly Agree, I agree, I have no opinion, I disagree, I strongly disagree) might gain a more accurate sample, however I did not take the time to come up with an appropriate question in order to facilitate this approach.

As for you last point: I concede my choices are not mutually exclusive; however, given the relative familiarity of the general readership of the boards community to the issue at hand I do no believe it will skew the results unduly.

That said, if the posts here so far have shown anything it is that ultimately peoples understanding and feelings towards "angle-shooting"* are wholly dependent on context.

*for want of a better term