Drogheda - Ottoman history?

blackthorn

from Wikipedia:

"In 1845, the onset of the Great Irish Famine resulted in over 1,000,000 deaths. Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid declared his intention to send 10,000 sterling to Irish farmers but Queen Victoria requested that the Sultan send only 1,000 sterling, because she had sent only 2,000 sterling. The Sultan sent the 1,000 sterling but also secretly sent 3 ships full of food. The English courts tried to block the ships, but the food arrived Drogheda harbor and was left there by Ottoman Sailors. [4]

Due to this the Irish people, especially those in Drogheda, are friendly to the Turks. This event led to the appearance of Ottoman symbols on Drogheda United's emblem."

Is this accurate? Can anyone shed any light on this?

mcgarnicle

Just out of interest, why not put this in the history forum? If you had a question about something that say the Italians had done for Ireland would you post it in the Christian forum?

Hobbes

moved to history forum. left redirect.

Fratton Fred

Hobbes wrote: »

moved to history forum. left redirect.

I wonder what he did for Portsmouth then.

(Pompey and Drogs share the same badge)

blackthorn

mcgarnicle wrote:

Why not put this in the history forum? If you had a question about something that say the Italians had done for Ireland would you post it in the Christian forum?

No, but if I had a question about something a Pope had done, I might well post it on the Catholic forum. My question is about the Sultan, at that time the leader of the majority of the Muslim world, not about the Turks. But anyway, the thread's been moved now to the history forum, so fair enough.

PDN

It's a lovely story, but sadly it probably isn't true.

While the Turks certainly did send some aid to Drogheda, the star and crescent were part of the royal seals of both King John and Richard I (the lionheart).

Portsmouth and Drogheda share the star and crescent symbol for the same reasons. King Richard gave Portsmouth its royal charter as a town and King John gave Drogheda its royal charter.

Wolff

This is complete nonsense im afraid - gas to hear where these myths come from

I think this myth goes back further to the civil war when King Charles sent food to lift the siege on Drogheda - and paid privateers to do it - some of which were probably north african or moorish

ASILISKENDER

The Treaty of Lausanne, signed in 1923 between the allied powers and the Turks in the aftermath of World War I, still prevails on the Turkish agenda. While on the one hand, some celebrate this treaty, arguing that it Marks Turkish independence from the invading powers, others are critical about it as so much was given away, like Cyprus, the Aegean islands, Mosul, etc. Yahya Kemal Beyatli (d. 1958), a famous Turkish poet and a former ambassador, had an interesting memory from the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne, in which he participated as a reporter. He recounts that while all the plenipotentiaries of the allied powers (The British Empire, France, Italy, Japan, Greece, Romania, and the Serb- Croat-Slovene State) voted in unison in opposition to Turkey, the representative from Ireland was an exception; in each vote, he raised his hand in favor of Turkey’s interests. Beyatli noticed this unusual person, and could not help asking him the reason. “I am obliged to do it. Not only I, but are all Irish men and women,” said the Irish representative. “When we suffered from famine and disease, your Ottoman ancestors shipped loads of food and monetary donations. We have never forgotten the friendly hand extended to us in our difficult times. Your nation deserves to be supported on
every occasion.” Ireland was ridden with famine and disease between 1845 and 1849. Also known as the Great Hunger, this famine had lasting effects: at least one million people died due to famine-related diseases and more than one million Irish fled, mainly to the United States, England, Canada, and Australia. Ottoman Sultan Abdulmecid sent five ships full of food supplies and funds as charity. However, the British administration did not give permission for these ships to enter the ports of Belfast or Dublin. Taner Baytok, former Turkish ambassador to Ireland, recounts in his memoirs that these ships secretly discharged their load in Drogheda, a town approximately 70 miles north of Dublin. In May 2, 1995, commemorating this charity, the mayor of Drogheda, Alderman Frank Goddfrey, paid honor to Baytok and erected a plaque in the Westcourt Hotel, which was then the City Hall where Turkish seamen stayed.2 Baytok says he first learned of this act of charity from an article by Thomas P. O’Neill published in The Threshold magazine in 1957. The Otoman sultan declared that he would donate £10,000, but on the orders of Queen Victoria the British Ambassador in Istanbul informed the Sultan that he shouldreduce this amount, for the Queen’s donation was only £2,000. As noted in the letter of gratitude from the “noblemen, gentlemen, and inhabitants of Ireland,” the amount donated by Sultan Abdulmecid was reduced by the Queen to one thousand pounds. Ottoman efforts to provide food and lessen the pains of the Irish people, despite political obstacles and the long distance, certainly deserves to be appreciated.It is a case study that should be analyzed carefully, not only as historical evidence for the friendship between two nations, but also as a perfect example that differences of race, religion, or language should not prevent humanitarian aid. This generous charity from a Muslim sultan to a Christian nation is also important, particularly in our time when Muslims are often unfairly accused
of human rights violations. Likewise, the appreciative plaque and overall reaction of the Irish society in return for this charity deserves to be applauded. We hope that the Turkish-Irish friendship sets a model for peace among different nations.

Notes
1. Many American presidents have been of Irish descent whose ancestors immigrated to the USA for various reasons, perhaps the famine being one of them. Among the recent American presidents from Irish descent are John F. Kennedy (1961-1963), Lyndon Johnson (1963-1969), Richard Nixon (1969-1974), Jimmy Carter (1977-1981), Ronald Reagan (1981-1989), George W. Bush (1989-1993), and Bill Clinton (1993-2001).

CDfm

I heard this before - I think on newstalks History programme.

MarchDub

ASILISKENDER wrote: »

Notes
1. Many American presidents have been of Irish descent whose ancestors immigrated to the USA for various reasons, perhaps the famine being one of them. Among the recent American presidents from Irish descent are John F. Kennedy (1961-1963), Lyndon Johnson (1963-1969), Richard Nixon (1969-1974), Jimmy Carter (1977-1981), Ronald Reagan (1981-1989), George W. Bush (1989-1993), and Bill Clinton (1993-2001).

The ethnic descent of Americans cannot ever be reliably claimed to be from one nation- Kennedy was probably the only one of pure Irish stock. The others have a variety of ethnic ancestors from which they claim decent. Reagan for example claimed Scottish and English roots also and Jimmy Carter's family were mostly English. George Bush is mostly of English and German ancestry. It's like the old adage that gets repeated frequently that there are 40 million of Irish decent in the US - a fallacy really, most of them would ALSO claim Italian, German, Polish, English etc.

donaghs

Mary McAleese mentioned this tale in Turkey recently (Ottoman Famine aid). Seems like a nice story but from what I've read, of dubious veracity.

I find it unlikely that the new Irish Free State would have any say in the Treaty of Lausanne. Can't find any info on this. As far as I can see, the Treaty was between the Allies of WW1, Greece, and the new Turkish state.

I'd imagine that taking into account the ethnic cleansing that took place in Greece/Turkey at this time (by both sides), and the strongly Catholic nature of Ireland at the time, most Irish sympathies would be more with the Orthodox Christian Greek minorities. Most of whom had to flee what was once the centre Eastern Orthodox Christianity, i.e. modern day Turkey.

This memo to the Irish Cabinet in 1923 makes parallels between Britains wish to protect Christian minorities in Turkey, and asks why they cant offer the same proposals for Catholics in Northern Ireland.

http://www.difp.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=390
"Now, the point is, if the official British solution for Christian minorities under heathen Turkish rule is that they are entitled to some small degree of autonomy and not to either (1) incorporation with a neighbouring Christian power or (2) independence on their own account – why should Northern Ireland be allowed by Britain to break completely away from Irish jurisdiction and incorporate itself with Great Britain?"

Fratton Fred

It is not of dubious veracity, it is an out and out fabrication and the fact the President chose to recite it is a joke.

The Sultan contacted the British ambassador and offered to make a donation of £5000. The Ambassador pointed out to the Sultan that the Queen, who had herself donated £2000 (personally, in total she raised over £80,000) would be delighted. However, the Sultan did not want to offend Queen Vic, so he reduced the amount of cash. There are no records in Drogheda of shipments of food from Turkey ever arriving.

Queen Victoria worked very hard for the poor of Ireland and after the famine, aware that Trinity only admitted Anglicans, wanted to help educate catholics, so founded colleges in Cork, Galway and Belfast.

Queen Victoria was very popular in Ireland, but this caused a majot problem for republicans. How do you create an independant republic when most of the country love an English queen? That is why the republican movement set about creating stories to destroy the name of the monarchy.

There is an interesting piece in the UCC archives on this very topic.

R.Dub.Fusilier

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It is not of dubious veracity, it is an out and out fabrication and the fact the President chose to recite it is a joke.

The Sultan contacted the British ambassador and offered to make a donation of £5000. The Ambassador pointed out to the Sultan that the Queen, who had herself donated £2000 (personally, in total she raised over £80,000) would be delighted. However, the Sultan did not want to offend Queen Vic, so he reduced the amount of cash. There are no records in Drogheda of shipments of food from Turkey ever arriving.

Queen Victoria worked very hard for the poor of Ireland and after the famine, aware that Trinity only admitted Anglicans, wanted to help educate catholics, so founded colleges in Cork, Galway and Belfast.

Queen Victoria was very popular in Ireland, but this caused a majot problem for republicans. How do you create an independant republic when most of the country love an English queen? That is why the republican movement set about creating stories to destroy the name of the monarchy.

There is an interesting piece in the UCC archives on this very topic.

i dont kow if any of this is true or not so wont comment on most of it but the english queen victoria gave the biggest individual cash donation , i think it was £500 , but it was claimed it was only £5 , this was in a recent issue of History Ireland

CDfm

I dont know how much her donation was but I have seen a letter by the Duke of Wellington Circa 1829/1832 predicting the famine and the inevitability of it and in general that the British policies towards Ireland in this respect were pretty f*****d up.

So if he was writting about it and the correspondence has survived -then it was fairly well known among the British establishment.

Given the communication system at the time -the Choctaws knew about the famine.

Queen Victorias Irish popularity may have been boosted by her visit in 1849 but it still doesnt excuse what happened.

@fratton fred -Princess Diana was very popular in ireland too but nobody proposed she run for President. I imagine in the scramble for food who was in power hardly mattered. I wonder if popularity was assessed with reference to voters of which only 5% of the population could vote at that time.

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Queen Victoria worked very hard for the poor of Ireland and after the famine, aware that Trinity only admitted Anglicans, wanted to help educate catholics, so founded colleges in Cork, Galway and Belfast.

This is not actually accurate. Catholics had been admitted to degree courses in Trinity since the late 1700s. It was nevertheless still an Anglican university - and Catholics wanted an equivalent one for their members. This is why the row over the Queens colleges began.

The Queens Colleges of Ireland Act [1845] was influenced by Protestant protests at the idea of Catholic Universities so these new universities were not allowed to teach theology. The result was that these new colleges became derided as "godless colleges". In 1851 The Catholic University of Ireland was established but without public funding or civic recognition of its degrees. By the 1880s the Catholic Church had reached an agreement with the British for a Catholic University system.