Interesting...

!!!!!conor!!!!!

From independent.ie (Irish Independent's website)

POINTS for medicine will be reduced dramatically under a revised deal worked out by the universities.


Starting in 2009, points will be combined with the results of an aptitude test to decide who gets into medicine.

It means that students with six B2s in their Leaving Cert -- 480 points -- will have a reasonable chance of getting into medicine if they do very well in the aptitude test.

Students will no longer need a string of A1s and to achieve 585 points to be sure of a place in a medical school.

After months of trying to hammer out an agreement, the Irish Independent has learned that the new arrangements will work as follows;

Leaving Cert points will be worth twice as much as the results of the aptitude test

-applicants will need at least 480 points on their Leaving before they are considered

-applicants will get full credit for points up to the 550 mark -- the equivalent of one A1 and five A2s

-above 550, there will be a pro-rata tapering measure where every five points will be worth only one extra point for medicine.

In other words, an applicant with 555 points on their Leaving will be credited with 551 points for medicine while somebody with 6 A1s will be credited with 560.

The changes will benefit students who began the two-year Leaving Cert cycle this September.

An official announcement is expected shortly, as soon as the deal is ratified by the academic councils and governing authorities of the universities.

It is understood that Trinity's Council, which is made up of academics, has already backed the changes, subject to agreement on an aptitude test.

The changes have been worked out by the universities themselves. They were being pushed by the Minister for Education and Science Mary Hanafin, who argued that it should not be necessary to have a "near perfect" Leaving to get into medicine.

The universities jealously guard their right to determine their own entry standards. Some senior academics felt that it was necessary to acknowledge the efforts of really brilliant students who get more than 550 points which is why they insisted on the "pro-rata" arrangement above 550.

Pressure

It is hoped that the new arrangements will take some pressure of students who aspire to be doctors. It is also hoped that they will cut down on the number of students going to grind schools and repeating in the belief that they will maximise their points.

Higher achieving students with up to 550 points will still have a better chance of entry than those on 480, but will also need to do a good aptitude test.

The details of these tests still have to be worked out but it is expected their will be a tendering process and that some variation of tests used in other countries will be adapted.

One difficulty is to decide what aptitudes should be looked. The other is that there is no universal agreement on what makes a good doctor, as they branch into so many different types of medical practice.

In theory, it should not be possible to get "coaching" for an aptitude test, but in practice this has become big business in countries that use such tests such as the US and Australia. Sources expect similar coaching

It is hoped to run the test in the second term of the academic year.

Spyral

i tihnk its good as it prevents kids whos 'daddys dad and his dad before him ' were doctors and other such rot from blagging the places because they have no social life and study like slaves to get seventy A1s which is a joke.

2Scoops

This is a step in the right direction, I think. However, on what basis will the aptitude test screen for undesirables? I'll be interested to see what they decide on.

I also hope that a similar selection process is implemented in other 'high-points' courses...

DrIndy

Spyral wrote: »

i tihnk its good as it prevents kids whos 'daddys dad and his dad before him ' were doctors and other such rot from blagging the places because they have no social life and study like slaves to get seventy A1s which is a joke.

the vast majority of my class came from non medical backgrounds and in fact there was divisions between the non-medical background people and the medical people.

I'm from a very non-medical background so this division really never existed to begin with.

tallaght01

DrIndy wrote: »

the vast majority of my class came from non medical backgrounds and in fact there was divisions between the non-medical background people and the medical people.

I'm from a very non-medical background so this division really never existed to begin with.

Agreed, majority of my class were from a non medical background. I don't see this making a huge difference. But, there will be a huge number of courses offering to coach students for the aptitude test I would imagine. Going to one will be like going to the institute of education for a leaving cert course. People will just study like crazy to pass the aptitude test.

ZorbaTehZ

Irish Independant wrote: »

One difficulty is to decide what aptitudes should be looked at. The other is that there is no universal agreement on what makes a good doctor, as they branch into so many different types of medical practice.

My thinking exactly. I can't see this being a real alternative tbh.

Vorsprung

And on a somewhat related note...

Student contests quota on medical courses
John Downes

A 20-year-old Irish student has launched a High Court challenge to the quota on the number of undergraduate medicine places allocated to EU students, in a move which, if successful, could have serious implications for the way the CAO system operates.

Frank Prendergast jnr, from Blackrock Co Dublin, is seeking to have the quota overturned because he claims it is unconstitutional. He is taking his action against three parties: the Higher Education Authority, the Minister for Education and Science, Mary Hanafin, and the Attorney General.

His legal team - which includes former tánaiste Michael McDowell SC - will argue the defendants acted unlawfully in directing the institutions in question to "drastically reduce and limit" the number of places for Irish citizen students "in an arbitrary and unlawful way". They will also argue that as a result of the policy, non-EU students are "permitted to obtain scarce places in institutions offering undergraduate courses in medicine denied to Irish citizens".

The documents state that Mr Prendergast obtained 550 CAO points when he repeated the Leaving Certificate this year. But this was not sufficient to gain entry as an EU student to any of the undergraduate medicine courses in the country.

He then applied for a place in medicine as a non-EU student, but was refused despite being willing to pay the significant tuition fees associated with this.

Under the current system, non-EU students do not require the same level of points as EU students to gain entry to medicine here. Such students pay tens of thousands of euro per year in fees, whereas EU students can avail of the "free fees" scheme at undergraduate level.

Linky

This I can't agree with. People should not be able to to pay their way into Medicine.

virtus

I dont agree with simply substituting one test for another. It will only be a matter of time before grind schools will start advertising courses specifically aimed at this aptitude test. In my opinion the system we have at the moment is sufficient. Perhaps more could be done with regard to continuous assessment, but overall its the fairest.

The problem is quite simply supply and demand. Demand far outstrips supply, both for prospective applicants and for the healthcare system. With the current funding system many, if not the majority of places go to paying foreign students. The system needs to be properly funded, either by the government or by Irish students themselves. There is a lot to be said for reintroduction of fees.

Besides, why have aptitude tests just for medicine? Why not for physio or dentistry, or any other course for that matter?

JSK 252

The reason that the points at the moment are 570+++ is obviously to do with supply and demand but more importantly even though it has no influence on the points for the course is the difficulty of the course.

If people are getting 480 points in their leaving , how are they going to cope with the academic demands of the medicine course??? I mean 480 is a very good score, no doubting that but I just dont think that students will be able to hack the course as medicine is the toughest course in college in terms of time and effort.

In my opinion anybody who is getting a minimum of A2 grade in leaving certificate science subjects should be accepted into med.

newestUser

DrIndy wrote: »

the vast majority of my class came from non medical backgrounds and in fact there was divisions between the non-medical background people and the medical people.

I'm from a very non-medical background so this division really never existed to begin with.

Apologies for pedantry, but do you mean there *were* divisions, or there weren't?

I've met people studying medicine btw who say it's harder to get the 600 points in the Leaving Cert than it is to actually study the subject (at least at undergraduate level). Which makes sense I suppose. You have to get a perfect LC to study medicine in the first place, but you don't need perfect exam results to progress from one year to the next once you're actually in there.

PoleStar

Spyral wrote: »

i tihnk its good as it prevents kids whos 'daddys dad and his dad before him ' were doctors and other such rot from blagging the places because they have no social life and study like slaves to get seventy A1s which is a joke.

This is ironic as the new system if introduced will bring about that which you seem to be wrong with the system.

In the "old" days, those with less than ideal leaving certs, got into the College of Surgeons based on moderate results but with money and medical relatives a place was guaranteed.

The system currently is based on effort alone, only those who put in the extra effort to max out in leaving cert will achieve the points to get into medicine, it doesnt matter whether you are Ben Dunne or Joe Bloggs from Ballymun, once you get the points you are in. While perhaps not ideal, no one can argue that this is fair. And while as mentioned, perhaps medicine doesnt require extreme intelligence, it does however require dedication as it is a long slog with much studying which doesnt finish when you leave medical school, or ever for that fact. So as a career, those who are interested in studying and can put in a lot of effort perhaps are suited to medicine (of course I am not entering into the whole personality of a doctor issue).

The new system will re-introduce the "money talks" entry method to med school. Those with a modicum of brains will achieve the points. And those whose daddy was well off enough to pay for an "Aptitude Test Course" to maz out on points in this area, will of course be accepted for med school. Thus the new system, while attempting to improve the selection of doctors, will really just re-introduce the bad aul ways.

liap

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

And on a somewhat related note...



Linky

This I can't agree with. People should not be able to to pay their way into Medicine.

I think the notion of 'buying his way' into medicine suggests that this guy is somewhat intellectually incapable of studying it. However, he got 7As in his leaving at Higher Level. Surely this shows a sufficient level of competence? The problem lies with the state's system. By capping the number of places allocated to (capable) Irish students, demand exceeds supply and points sky rocket. Surely the state can find better ways of financing universities than by making guys like Mr. Prendergast suffer at the hands of an unjust system, having worked hard and shown a keen desire and ability to study medicine.

The Daily Mail raised an interesting point today. Parents of children all over Ireland essentially 'pay' for their children's educations through various direct and indirect taxes. Nothing comes for free. By making somewhat misguided citizens believe that they are getting 'free' education, the government have been getting away with murder for years. The 'CAO' system of 'work hard and you'll be rewarded' masks the fact that non-EU students on as little as 420 points are taking 'scarce' places in med school, and then go on to get their training in Irish hospitals which are funded by the Irish tax payer.

I'm not a xenophobe. I'm nothing of the sort. But no matter what way you look at this, it's discrimination. And by offering to pay non-EU fees (and being subsequently denied a place yet again) this guy has just pulled the wool back from over our eyes.

DrIndy

newestUser wrote: »

Apologies for pedantry, but do you mean there *were* divisions, or there weren't?

I've met people studying medicine btw who say it's harder to get the 600 points in the Leaving Cert than it is to actually study the subject (at least at undergraduate level). Which makes sense I suppose. You have to get a perfect LC to study medicine in the first place, but you don't need perfect exam results to progress from one year to the next once you're actually in there.

There were divisions - we didn't like the medical background kids.

But then after a couple years got to know them better, but there was resentment there.

donaghs

What exactly will the "aptitude test" be? As an earlier posting has said, the current system is tough, but fair. If you get the points you get the place.

Ireland being what it is, if there is a chink in this armour, every "cute hoor" will be trying every trick in the book the get their little prince/princess into what they perceive to be the most prestigious of all college courses.

oneeyedsnake

Spyral wrote: »

i tihnk its good as it prevents kids whos 'daddys dad and his dad before him ' were doctors and other such rot from blagging the places because they have no social life and study like slaves to get seventy A1s which is a joke.

Its not a joke,if someone is willing to make a huge sacrifice in order to achieve the entry requirements for medical school then fair play to them.Are you bitter beacause you missed out on the points due to having a few to many pints in 6th year?

Bethany

I think it is a disgrace that you need to have some many points at present because there is a shortage of places.Many students report that medical school whilst very demanding is easier than the leaving cert. If the government was prepared to fund the universities properly and increase the number of places available, then many other candidates who would be excellent doctors would have a chance. The irony is that there are many consultants and lecturers in medicine who are distinguished in their field and would never get those high points.
Yes it is a system that doesn't allow for any influence and this is very fair but as a lot of our medical graduates do not continue in clinical practise is this system of selecting people who are extremely academic necessarily the best one?
Naturally anyone who has come through it is quite rightly proud as it is an enormous achievement but maybe this idea of allowing in graduates who are more mature will be a great idea.Also I think the government has failed dismally to look at the amount of doctors, physiotherapists and radiographers that is needed both now and in the future and as a result some very excellent people have been lost to all these professions.Equally I think that it is ridiculous that Irish students who qualify on points at present may not get a place because of capping places. It may not be PC to say this but the system in our country should be run firstly to suit our citizens.But of course it all comes down to underfunding....foreign students bring revenue.

Traumadoc

Why are they introducing it ?
Afterall the present system works and they dont seem to beintroducing it to other fields such as pharmacy or physiotherapy or dentistry.

Roysh!!!

liap wrote: »

I think the notion of 'buying his way' into medicine suggests that this guy is somewhat intellectually incapable of studying it. However, he got 7As in his leaving at Higher Level. Surely this shows a sufficient level of competence? The problem lies with the state's system. By capping the number of places allocated to (capable) Irish students, demand exceeds supply and points sky rocket. Surely the state can find better ways of financing universities than by making guys like Mr. Prendergast suffer at the hands of an unjust system, having worked hard and shown a keen desire and ability to study medicine.

The Daily Mail raised an interesting point today. Parents of children all over Ireland essentially 'pay' for their children's educations through various direct and indirect taxes. Nothing comes for free. By making somewhat misguided citizens believe that they are getting 'free' education, the government have been getting away with murder for years. The 'CAO' system of 'work hard and you'll be rewarded' masks the fact that non-EU students on as little as 420 points are taking 'scarce' places in med school, and then go on to get their training in Irish hospitals which are funded by the Irish tax payer.

I'm not a xenophobe. I'm nothing of the sort. But no matter what way you look at this, it's discrimination. And by offering to pay non-EU fees (and being subsequently denied a place yet again) this guy has just pulled the wool back from over our eyes.

While I agree with everything you've said, you wouldn't happen to be Mr Prendergast's sister, would you 'Lia P'??! :P
The fact that you know Prendo got 7A's yet its not mentioned suggests you might be his sister!

eth0_

That guy who is taking government bodies to court is a tool. Talk about throwing your toys out of your pram! Lots of courses are hard to get into - psychology for instance is what, 580 points in Trinity? And not a massive amount of places.

He could have probably gotten a place in a UK medical school with those results.

Is the aptitude test the GAMSAT then?

Traumadoc

The problem is that he has exposed the anomily where you can pay for amedical education abroad ( eg eastern europe) but cannot in Ireland - unless you do a science degree first, then you have to pay.

Why would you pay for graduate entry and cannot for undergraduate entry.

eth0_

Why not?
If we didn't have non-EU medical students, the medical schools in Ireland would be f*cked. It's a major source of income. And it's not like this is something exclusive to medicine - every university course allows non EU students who are paying substantial fees to study there.

You still need very good school grades to get into med school in Eastern European medschools - I hope!

Traumadoc

Because it discriminates against Irish students, you can pay full fees but you have to do a science degree first, however if you are a non resident (there were irish citizens in my class paying full fees from Northern Irelnd) you cannot py to get ito undergraduate classes.
The money issue dos not matter because the colleges would be getting it from full fee paying students- irish or non resident.

MGLman

It is tough for Irish students, because this course is not like an art course, professional degree and requires people who can make an effort. If you did not get enough points, you had not made enough effort. If you are able to get in and finish good for you, you are good professional.

On the other hand, it is shameful, because Non Irish students are used as a money machine. Let them pay the fee regardless of they are able to cope with or not. They are just Non residents and get left at the end and they go back home or somewhere.

I do not think there is any discrimination against any Irish students here but there is fair criteria for Irish students.