Rules Q : can you decide not to look for your ball?

Sandwich

Playing a par 5. Playing 4i for my second to try to keep it on the fairway with trouble left and right. Dont - push it about 3 yards into dense bushes from where it may not be retrievable, even if found.
Call a provisional, take out the 3 wood (having no shot on the hole and need to take a higher risk shot - hit a perfect shot (I know, I know).
Walking on it occurs to me that actually finding my ball could be bad news. If I see it, it is in play. But if its further into the trouble than a penalty drop will clear, then I am forced to go back and try to repeat the perfect shot I had just hit - I guess about 1 in 20 chance. (not possible to drop in line with hole)

So, can I just decide not to look for it and play the provisional?
Keeping my eyes averted from the area of the 1st ball (and warning my partners to do the same) in case anyone would see it and make it my ball in play?

Mister Sifter

No, i'm fairly certain that you don't have to look for it. You can just declare it lost. After you've done that the original ball is out of play.

BillyBoy

You hit a provisional in case the first was lost. You can look for it if you want or just declare it lost. Once you have declared it lost your provisional ball is in play.

Thats my understanding of it anyway

copacetic

I think not looking hard is ok, but imo carefully avoiding looking in the direction of where the ball might be and especially asking your partners to assist is clearly against the spirit of golf.

You could find it and declare it unplayable, but that would make the provisional out too and you would have to go back and hit another one.

WHIP IT!

Funny, I was wondering the exact same thing a couple of weeks ago and meant to put a post up here about it!

stockdam

Just declare it as lost before anyone goes looking for it.

the_syco

Define lost? Behind a tree, number 13 hole in the Par 3 in Leixlip:D or in the mud, it's the 18 hole, and your shoe's are (somehow) still white?

Just kidding.

It's horrible when it happens, esp if it's the 2nd shot, and just goes over the green, and gets lost in the ditch. What par?

corkandproud

Drove off the 1st recently, hit about 6 trees and landed on the putting green.

Declared the ball unplayable and took 3 off the tee with second ball.

Was I right?

PhilipMarlowe

corkandproud wrote: »

Drove off the 1st recently, hit about 6 trees and landed on the putting green.

Declared the ball unplayable and took 3 off the tee with second ball.

Was I right?

It was one correct option anyway.... though you may have had other options.
When a ball is unplayable, you can drop under penalty within 2 club lengths, not nearer the hole (2 club lengths of where the ball is, not the edge of the bush the ball is in as I often see done) OR you can keep the point where the ball is and the flag in line and go back as far on that line as you wish OR you can play again from where you last played (which is what you did).

In your case, you may have been entitled to drop the ball off the putting green without penalty, depending on a local rule which most likely would have been mentioned on the scorecard (possibly you could have played it too but often you will see that a ball ending up on a green or tee other than the hole being played MUST be dropped without penalty)

PhilipMarlowe

stockdam wrote: »

Just declare it as lost before anyone goes looking for it.

Technically, you can't 'declare a ball lost'. It's only lost when you look for it and can't find it or you make a stroke at a substituted ball

Let’s look at a lost ball. In the definitions in the Rules of Golf, we find that a ball is “deemed” to be lost if:
1) It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or
2) The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball; or
3) The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place.

“Deemed” is an important word here, as it indicates that the ball becomes lost when any one of these three conditions is met. The player can not declare a ball to be lost. And finding the ball after one of these conditions is met does not render the ball “found” under the Rules, even though it is the player’s original ball.

The five-minute time limit for searching for a lost ball first entered the Rules back in 1783, and has remained unchanged since 1899. The clock starts when the player, his partner, or either of their caddies enters the area where the ball is likely to be and begins searching. If a ball is found within the five minutes, the player is obligated to identify the ball as his.

If the player makes a stroke at a substituted ball, the original ball is lost. Most often we see this on the tee, when a player, having driven into deep woods, “reloads” without announcing the ball to be provisional. That ball, when struck, automatically becomes the ball in play under stroke and distance penalty. Too bad if the original is later found.

Hmmmmm.... looking at point 3 above is interesting.

3) The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place.

So basically if you drive into rubbish, call a provisional and smack it down the middle.
By nature of the fact that the provisional is nearer the hole, you can make another stroke at it and then your original ball is deemed lost.... so it is better to call a provisional.
If you made a mess of the provo too, then you'd hope to find the first ball which would give you the opportunity of hitting off the tee again, 3rd time lucky

Moral of the story?

copacetic

corkandproud wrote: »

Drove off the 1st recently, hit about 6 trees and landed on the putting green.

Declared the ball unplayable and took 3 off the tee with second ball.

Was I right?

No, you can't take stroke and distance on an unplayable ball.

Licksy wrote: »

When a ball is unplayable, you can drop under penalty within 2 club lengths, not nearer the hole (2 club lengths of where the ball is, not the edge of the bush the ball is in as I often see done) OR you can keep the point where the ball is and the flag in line and go back as far on that line as you wish OR you can play again from where you last played (which is what you did).

again, this is incorrect. You can't take stroke and distance on a unplayable ball.

copacetic

Rule 28, the rules of golf wrote:

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the
course except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is
the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.
If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under
penalty of one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the
original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that
point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball
is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball
may be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the
ball lay, but not nearer the hole.
If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed
under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b
or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.
The ball may be lifted and cleaned when proceeding under
this Rule.

Note, as you need to know where the ball was to proceed under this rule you cannot declare the ball unplayable unless you find it.

PhilipMarlowe

copacetic wrote: »

Note, as you need to know where the ball was to proceed under this rule you cannot declare the ball unplayable unless you find it.

NOT TRUE.

From the R&A decisions

Q. A player hits his tee shot into a deep canyon. The player immediately declares the ball unplayable and plays another ball from the tee under the stroke-and-distance option of Rule 28. May a player declare unplayable a ball which has not been found?

A. Yes. A player may proceed under the stroke-and-distance option (Rule 28a) without finding his ball.
However, since Rules 28b and c require reference to where the ball lay, the player must find and identify his ball in order to proceed under either of these options.

Rule 28a is basically stroke and distance.
Imagine you drive up the right of a dogleg-left par 4, into trees and heavy undergrowth with out of bounds along the right beside the trees. You can't keep the flag and ball in line and go back because you'll either still be in the rubbish or going back further brings you OB.
Dropping within 2 club lengths will mean you're still in the rubbish too with no clear shot.
So you can take stroke and distance and go back to where you last played from (the tee in this case).
I don't understand where you were coming from in your previous posts where you said I was wrong? Your reply (quoting the rule) basically spells out that corkandproud pursued a correct option...

copacetic

Licksy wrote: »

NOT TRUE.

From the R&A decisions


Rule 28a is basically stroke and distance.
Imagine you drive up the right of a dogleg-left par 4, into trees and heavy undergrowth with out of bounds along the right beside the trees. You can't keep the flag and ball in line and go back because you'll either still be in the rubbish or going back further brings you OB.
Dropping within 2 club lengths will mean you're still in the rubbish too with no clear shot.
So you can take stroke and distance and go back to where you last played from (the tee in this case).
I don't understand where you were coming from in your previous posts where you said I was wrong? Your reply (quoting the rule) basically spells out that corkandproud pursued a correct option...

, you are damn right, and me with only a few beers on board!

I feel like cleaning this thread right up to save embarassment!!

stockdam

Licksy wrote: »

Technically, you can't 'declare a ball lost'. It's only lost when you look for it and can't find it or you make a stroke at a substituted ball

Correct you can't just "declare" it lost.


Assuming you declared a provisional ball from where you last hit from then all you do is walk up to the provisonal ball, declare the other ball lost and play the provisional until it is nearer the hole than your original ball (if you can).

Another way of doing it is when your first ball is found just say you aren't sure if it's yours (won't work if you've put distictive markings on it).

Or if you don't declare a provisonal ball then once you hit the second ball the first one is deemed to be lost even if it is found.


To be honest I would look for my original ball and if found would take the punishment even if it was "unfair". I'm not sure what I'd do if I was good enough to be in a professional tournament and it happened.....as long as you don't break the rules then it's ok to choose the option that works for you even if it means not looking for a ball. The rules don't say you have to look for a ball. I guess you'd be slatted though for unsportsmanlike conduct???

Gillie

Here's one for ye.
Out with the old man last weekend. Fairly muddy course but playable.

On the 2nd hole. A par 3. 50 to 100ft drop to the green from the Tee. Easy enough hole.

Anyway. Old man hits an iron and the ball lands on the green. But when we get down there we find that the ball is actually plugged in the green. about 2 thirds of the ball is beneath the ground.

What's the rule here? Surely you can't play a wedge on a green?

Cheers

stockdam

Mark the ball then lift it (out of the plug mark). You can then repair your pitch/plug mark. Replace the ball and lift your marker. Single putt.

PhilipMarlowe

On the green you can always lift, clean and place after repairing the pitchmark.

On the fairway or fringe, you can lift clean and drop out of your own pitchmark, regardless of time of year, (doesn't have to be winter rules) - no penalty for doing this.

In the rough or a hazard you must play as it lies (or declare unplayable & drop under penalty). This rule is changing from Jan 1st so that a ball in its own pitchmark may be dropped without penalty once it is NOT in a hazard (proper oreder too).

stockdam

Licksy wrote: »

On the green you can always lift, clean and place after repairing the pitchmark.

How can you repair your pitchmark then if the ball is still plugged in it.....you can't repair it before lifting your ball.

Mister Sifter

stockdam wrote: »

How can you repair your pitchmark then if the ball is still plugged in it.....you can't repair it before lifting your ball.

well, easy... you mark your ball, take the ball out of the ground and clean it, repair the mark, put your ball back down, lift your marker and roll it on home.

Gillie

Cheers. That's what he did.

Sandwich

Licksy wrote: »

Hmmmmm.... looking at point 3 above is interesting.
3) The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place.

So basically if you drive into rubbish, call a provisional and smack it down the middle.
By nature of the fact that the provisional is nearer the hole, you can make another stroke at it and then your original ball is deemed lost.... so it is better to call a provisional.
If you made a mess of the provo too, then you'd hope to find the first ball which would give you the opportunity of hitting off the tee again, 3rd time lucky
Moral of the story?

Thanks. Seems to be more or less what I was guessing. I knew that if you find the lost ball then it is in play, and the provisional is finished. But it seems you are not obliged to look for a ball. Nor is there any suggestion that by taking care not to see it (and so make it in play) I am doing anything unlawful (or even unsportmanlike). So you can go straight to the provo, hit it and make it in play.
Still not sure of the situation if one of your partners, player on the neighbouring fairway, etc. call you before you get to hit the provo and says 'found yours'. It would seem the ball is not 'lost' in practice, but technically if you dont identify it as yours, but go ahead and hit the provo, then you have put the provo in play.

Anyway, not really being sure at the time (or mean git not wanting to part with a ball) I looked for the ball. Got it and was able to penalty drop. Still took a 7. Rats.......