Fred Phelps ordered to pay $11 million to father of slain marine.

Karl Hungus

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-westboro1031,0,7191706.story

You know, I'm sure there's a debate to be had in this, but all I can say right now is about damn time. I hope this is the end for such protests.

Dudess

That's fantastic news. Opposed as I am to the war in Iraq, I believe many of those young men sent to fight there are victims. The Westboro Baptist Church's actions are so heinous. Fred Phelps is such a hate-filled man (and, I'd be willing to bet, a gay hate-filled man). The way he has messed up his daughter Shirley's mind is frightful. Apparently the abuse he meted out to his children when they were growing up was absolutely atrocious. http://www.rslevinson.com/gaylesissues/features/collect/phelps/bl_phelpschapter02.htm
And his grandchildren seem like such lovely people, yet they wholeheartedly believe in this campaign. All due to their grandfather's monstrousness. He has warped the minds of so many decent people and condemned them to a life they shouldn't lead. A grotesque individual.
Edit: Just been reading that link. Change "grotesque individual" to "sick f*cker".

Dave!

Hah, I'm thrilled.

seamus

Dudess wrote: »

(and, I'd be willing to bet, a gay hate-filled man).

I'd be fairly sure of that too. Only someone in deep denial could harbour so much hate.

daveirl

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Jumpy

I would hire two gay men to kiss in front of them if I saw a bunch of them with placards.
Either that or stand with them with a big placard saying "The people I am standing with are idiots"

Sleepy

While I don't normally agree with punitive damages, this is a victory for common sense.

daveirl

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Trode

daveirl wrote: »

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I'm with you on this. Sure, I'd like to see Phelps and his crew get a super-glue enema, but it is just a protest, and should be allowed. How many here would be cheering if a soldier's family found an anti-war protest offensive, and sued the pants off the organisers?

EDIT: Actually, does anyone know if these protests involve standing around quietly with signs, or do they scream insults or slogans at the funeral? Because if it's the latter, I can see a case for disruption or harassment, which would be fair enough.

seamus

I think this really boils down to a person asking themselves one question:

Are funerals exceptional occasions whereby a funeral in a public place is a legally-protected private gathering? If Phelps and the likes were doing the same in a crematorium, the judgement would be valid.

This basically sets a precedent whereby family can decide to "ban" people from funerals, even if they are in public places. So is a funeral a bit like a concert - held in a place that's ordinarily public, but for the purpose of the funeral becomes a private area?

nesf

daveirl wrote: »

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I agree.

daveirl wrote: »

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I disagree, reasonable limits on it are essential. Shouting "fire" or "there's a bomb" in a crowded theatre with one exit springs to mind as the obvious example.

daveirl

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nesf

daveirl wrote: »

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Like every other right it needs to be balanced with respect to all others. Should your right to freedom of speech trump my right to privacy in all cases?

dr_manhattan

Sorry but freedom of speech does not entitle me to arrive at a funeral of a stranger armed with enormous signs saying they are going to hell because of 'fags'. It just does not.

It simply does not. Your opinions are one thing, but causing needless suffering to people at their loved ones' funeral is completely another.

And certainly, if the right of people to wear arabic T Shirts or joke with airline staff about explosives are to disappear, then the right of hateful scum to act like spoilt children can damn well disappear too.

And besides which: speech is not free, nor has it ever been. Apart from not being allowed to say *many* things, there is not freedom from consequence, nor has there ever been.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Ridiculous decision, what's more is it'll probably be overturned by a higher court.

11Mil? I'm no fan of Phelps but that's just silly.

Wonder what would happen if one of the regular phelps protesters died tragically, there's bound to be hundreds of people who hate them more than we could ever contemplate if they had relations who were picketed.

dr_manhattan

"11Mil? I'm no fan of Phelps but that's just silly."

Yep, it's tokenistic and totally overboard.

Trying to make an example? Knowing america, probably.

But **** it, I honestly do not care one spare pubic hair what happens to this clown: I'm completely against execution, too - but if they fried fred phelps I'd still focus my attention on other things than his inalienable human rights.

The law does many things that are deeply, morally unfair and heinous on a daily basis: if it's going to fine a bigot 11m I'm not gonna argue. Happy to hear about this particular injustice ;-)

GerryRyan

dr_manhattan wrote: »

Sorry but freedom of speech does not entitle me to arrive at a funeral of a stranger armed with enormous signs saying they are going to hell because of 'fags'. It just does not.

It simply does not. Your opinions are one thing, but causing needless suffering to people at their loved ones' funeral is completely another.

And besides which: speech is not free, nor has it ever been. Apart from not being allowed to say *many* things, there is not freedom from consequence, nor has there ever been.

In most cases I will agree with Freedom of Speech - but we have to draw a line somewhere when crowds like the Phelps take complete advantage of this to spread their message of hate and are causing distress to the families (and the public in general). Usually the 'ignore them and they'll get bored' idea works, but with this church (and I use that term loosely) it wouldn't work.

I'm surprised the legality of their protests hasn't been questioned before.

Freedom of speech:

The concept of the inherent human right to voice one's opinion publicly without fear of censorship or punishment. The right is enshrined in the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights and is granted formal recognition by the laws of most nations. ...

Harassment:

Words, conduct or action, usually repeated or persistent that, being directed at a specific person, annoys, alarms, or causes substantial emotional distress in that person and serves no purpose.

LadyJ

Trode wrote: »

EDIT: Actually, does anyone know if these protests involve standing around quietly with signs, or do they scream insults or slogans at the funeral? Because if it's the latter, I can see a case for disruption or harassment, which would be fair enough.

They shout insults etc. as far as I know.

I'm glad he's being sued because I think he's a grade A asshole but in reality it was a bad call by the court.

nesf

LadyJ wrote: »

I'm glad he's being sued because I think he's a grade A asshole but in reality it was a bad call by the court.

It was a good example of why juries shouldn't pick the amount awarded to the victim.

LadyJ

nesf wrote: »

It was a good example of why juries shouldn't pick the amount awarded to the victim.

Yeah it's hard to be objective in a case like this.

I don't believe in juries anyway. They're a terrible idea! Another day's debate though.