Is it alway 'wrong' to lie?

JimiTime

Thats really it, Is it 'ever right' to lie? Or is 'every' lie wrong? Just looking for christian response, thanks.

Run_to_da_hills

JimiTime wrote: »

Thats really it, Is it 'ever right' to lie? Or is 'every' lie wrong? Just looking for christian response, thanks.

There would be certain exceptions, take for example, during WWII, there were some who hid Jews in their homes. If Nazi soldiers came by and asked if there were any Jews in their home, they would lie in order to save people's lives. If you are protecting someone's life and soul, that is commendable to God and to humanity. God will reward you. If you lie to a soldier to save a person, think about it. you are doing a good deed. You are NOT lying to God, yourself, or anyone for that matter.

JimiTime

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There would be certain exceptions, take for example, during WWII, there were some who hid Jews in their homes. If Nazi soldiers came by and asked if there were any Jews in their home, they would lie in order to save people's lives. If you are protecting someone's life and soul, that is commendable to God and to humanity. God will reward you. If you lie to a soldier to save a person, think about it. you are doing a good deed. You are NOT lying to God, yourself, or anyone for that matter.

Indeed, the situation with Rahab is a biblical example of such an incident. However, is it 'right'? Would Jesus do it? Satan is called 'the father of the lie'. Although i understand the circumstance mentioned, is it a double standard? To save a life, including your own, its ok to lie?Peter was 'saving a life' (his own) by denying he was a companion of Jesus. Was that right? i think people can do the right thing for the wrong reasons, and the wrong thing for the right reasons. I don't think you can ever say that to 'lie' is 'right'. Personally I think its an absolute, to lie is wrong, full stop. However, there are situations where lieing 'seems' like the right thing to do. But can you really say, its right? To repeat, Satan is called 'the father of the lie'. I suppose you could tie it into stealing. To steal is wrong, full stop. However, there is a degree of understanding if someone robs a loaf of bread to feed his family as opposed to someone who steals a car to go joyriding. Neither are 'right', but one is understandable.

Run_to_da_hills

JimiTime wrote: »

Indeed, the situation with Rahab is a biblical example of such an incident. However, is it 'right'? Would Jesus do it? Satan is called 'the father of the lie'. Although i understand the circumstance mentioned, is it a double standard? To save a life, including your own, its ok to lie?Peter was 'saving a life' (his own) by denying he was a companion of Jesus. Was that right? i think people can do the right thing for the wrong reasons, and the wrong thing for the right reasons. I don't think you can ever say that to 'lie' is 'right'. Personally I think its an absolute, to lie is wrong, full stop. However, there are situations where lieing 'seems' like the right thing to do. But can you really say, its right? To repeat, Satan is called 'the father of the lie'. I suppose you could tie it into stealing. To steal is wrong, full stop. However, there is a degree of understanding if someone robs a loaf of bread to feed his family as opposed to someone who steals a car to go joyriding. Neither are 'right', but one is understandable.

God is understanding and compassionate and understands each person’s situation, there’s a difference between a blatant liar and one who is genuinely in a life or death situation such as someone harbouring Jews during the War.

Peter’s situation was different because he was lying directly against God to save his own skin, he realised this and repented. A true Christian to day should put Christ before his own life even at the risk of prison or his life as what regularly happens in certain Islamic states. The Christians that refused to deny their faith to the crusaders and were then burnt at the stake rather than submit to the religious hierarchy would have been in the similar situation to Peters but did not submit to Satan as he did.

There is a stark warning in Revelation 21vs8 that God dose not take lying lightly and has those that lie in the same catagory as those who murder, entertain prostitutes, and athiests. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death". Revelation 21:8.

Akrasia

JimiTime wrote: »

Indeed, the situation with Rahab is a biblical example of such an incident. However, is it 'right'? Would Jesus do it? Satan is called 'the father of the lie'. Although i understand the circumstance mentioned, is it a double standard? To save a life, including your own, its ok to lie?Peter was 'saving a life' (his own) by denying he was a companion of Jesus. Was that right? i think people can do the right thing for the wrong reasons, and the wrong thing for the right reasons. I don't think you can ever say that to 'lie' is 'right'. Personally I think its an absolute, to lie is wrong, full stop. However, there are situations where lieing 'seems' like the right thing to do. But can you really say, its right? To repeat, Satan is called 'the father of the lie'. I suppose you could tie it into stealing. To steal is wrong, full stop. However, there is a degree of understanding if someone robs a loaf of bread to feed his family as opposed to someone who steals a car to go joyriding. Neither are 'right', but one is understandable.

There are some problems with the absolute position that you have taken.

Firstly, what exactly is a lie? Is a magician lying to us when he pretends he is levitating or reading your mind? (after all, he is deliberately deceiving us). Are myths and fables lies if they are told to people as though they were the accurate truth.

secondly, lies are often necessary in everyday social encounters in order to be a polite, decent human being.
Someone invites you into their home and cooks you a meal. If they ask you afterwards did you enjoy it, the polite answer was yes, even if you thought it tasted like steamed rat entrails, similarly, if you go to watch a childrens play and the little kid asks you afterwards if you thought it was good, you have to say yes no matter how bored you were throughout the show.

If you were 100% honest all of the time, you would come across as an arrogant selfish individual.

And of course, lies are sometimes necessary to protect people from harm.
The stranger who knocks on your door and says "tell me where your father is, I want to kill him"
What kind of son would tell the stranger the truth and put his fathers life in danger?

There are lots of scenarios where in order to keep a promise you have to lie to someone. If your best friend asks you not to tell someone something, and they ask you about it, you would be forced to choose which person to lie to, your friend, to whom you made the promise, or the person who asked you the question.

I don't agree with the categorical imperative. There are no concrete rules and few acts that are always wrong all of the time. Sometimes you have to do something that is normally wrong in order to prevent worse wrongs.
Not every situation is black or white.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Indeed, the situation with Rahab is a biblical example of such an incident. However, is it 'right'?

As Akrasia suggests context plays an important part

The question with a lie is who you are deceiving and why.

Its ok for a magician to deceive us because we want them to, and we enjoy it.

It is ok to deceive a Nazi trying to kill your friends because they are already committing an immoral action so you don't care if they are hurt or upset by your deception.

Its not ok to deceive your wife by having an affair with the baby sitter and lying about it because your wife doesn't wish to be deceived and trusts you not to deceive her.

The murky area is when you think it is best to deceive a person, but they might disagree. For example telling a "white lie" that you think will protect someone from a painful truth, such as telling your friend that the girl he fancies has a boyfriend because they actually told you they wouldn't touch your friend with a barge poll.

JimiTime

^^ Sorry guys, I really just want to stick to Christian reasoning. With no God, reasons for lieing can be both logical and rational, but thats not where I'm coming from. Its establishing is it ever 'right' in gods view.

JimiTime

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

God is understanding and compassionate and understands each person’s situation, there’s a difference between a blatant liar and one who is genuinely in a life or death situation such as someone harbouring Jews during the War.

Completely agree. But thats not what I'm saying. I'm asking if its ever 'right'? Understandable, yes. But 'right'?

Peter’s situation was different because he was lying directly against God to save his own skin,

So it would have been ok, if it was lying about knowing matthew, to save his sister?

he realised this and repented. A true Christian to day should put Christ before his own life even at the risk of prison or his life as what regularly happens in certain Islamic states. The Christians that refused to deny their faith to the crusaders and were then burnt at the stake rather than submit to the religious hierarchy would have been in the similar situation to Peters but did not submit to Satan as he did.

But is it ever 'right' to lie? i think you've either mis-understood what I'm saying, or avoided answering? By the sounds of it, you are saying that if you are not lieing about your faith and you're not a compulsive liar, then lies can be ok?

There is a stark warning in Revelation 21vs8 that God dose not take lying lightly and has those that lie in the same catagory as those who murder, entertain prostitutes, and athiests. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death". Revelation 21:8.

Obviously there is a difference between a liar, and someone who for want of a better term, lies for the right reason (such as Rahab). However, that does not make the lie 'right'. It is still wrong no?

Run_to_da_hills

JimiTime wrote: »

Completely agree. But thats not what I'm saying. I'm asking if its ever 'right'? Understandable, yes. But 'right'?

So it would have been ok, if it was lying about knowing matthew, to save his sister? ?

I would say it would have been ok to deny Matthew if his sister she was totally innocent and her life was at stake. The difference between ldenying Jesus and Matthew is that Matthew was just an ordinary man while Jesus on the other is the Son of God and has the power over life and death, Peter did not trust in Jesus with these powers just like the rest of the Apostles when they fled the sceen.

JimiTime wrote: »

But is it ever 'right' to lie? i think you've either mis-understood what I'm saying, or avoided answering? By the sounds of it, you are saying that if you are not lieing about your faith and you're not a compulsive liar, then lies can be ok?

A definition of a lie would be a false statement deliberately presented as being true, a falsehood or something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

Giving false information for the right reason is entirely different to deliberatly giving false information for selfish personal gain such as not disclosing information to get a cheaper insurance premium or telling the TV license inspector you do not have a TV when infact its hidden under the bed.

Another example of "Giving false information for the right reason" would be not declare Bibles and salvation tracts when entering an injust totalitarian state such as the former Soviet Union with the intention of preaching the Gospel where such literature was prohibited by law.

JimiTime wrote: »

Obviously there is a difference between a liar, and someone who for want of a better term, lies for the right reason (such as Rahab). However, that does not make the lie 'right'. It is still wrong no?

It is technicall "wrong" to "lie for the right reason" but a certain amount of wisdom and common sense must come into the equasion.

JimiTime

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I Giving false information for the right reason is entirely different to deliberatly giving false information for selfish personal gain such as not disclosing information to get a cheaper insurance premium or telling the TV license inspector you do not have a TV when infact its hidden under the bed.

Another example of "Giving false information for the right reason" would be not declare Bibles and salvation tracts when entering an injust totalitarian state such as the former Soviet Union with the intention of preaching the Gospel where such literature was prohibited by law.

It is technicall "wrong" to "lie for the right reason" but a certain amount of wisdom and common sense must come into the equasion.

What about faith? Jesus said, if you have faith as small as a mustard grain, you can tell a mountain to move from here to there. Now if we stay obedient to God, and not lie, even if it 'seems' like the practical and easiest thing to do, should we not therefore face what waits for us? If one is truly righteous, and truly faithful, and indeed puts themselves into Gods hands in such a scenario, should we then not accept what happens? If God wishes for you to, for example, go into russia and spread the word, then he will aide your passage if we put our faith in him no? Or is that too risky? If you think its risky, is that a lack of faith?

Run_to_da_hills

JimiTime wrote: »

What about faith? Jesus said, if you have faith as small as a mustard grain, you can tell a mountain to move from here to there. Now if we stay obedient to God, and not lie, even if it 'seems' like the practical and easiest thing to do, should we not therefore face what waits for us? If one is truly righteous, and truly faithful, and indeed puts themselves into Gods hands in such a scenario, should we then not accept what happens? If God wishes for you to, for example, go into russia and spread the word, then he will aide your passage if we put our faith in him no? Or is that too risky? If you think its risky, is that a lack of faith?

I would agree with putting all your faith in God to aid the passage, of course there would be risk involved, and it is not going to be all plain sailing, that is all a part of being a Christian. Many are locked up in Islamic prisons to_day for preaching the Gospel and destributing Bibles. "Then they will hand you over to those who will torture and kill you. All nations will hate you because you are committed to me" Matthew 24vs9.

PDN

Brother Andrew, the author of God's Smuggler used to smuggle Bibles into the Soviet Union. He operated on a policy of never telling a lie, but used to ask God to 'blind the eyes' of the border guards so they would fail to detect his cargo.

On one occasion a border guard asked him point blank what was in the boot of his car. Required to answer a direct question, and unwilling to lie, he answered "1000 Bibles!" The guard started laughing and said, "That's a good joke." then waved him on through.

JoeB-

PDN, that's a nice story.

I don't think it's possible to live a life without lying, even little 'white lies'... an example would be a person who has a terminal illness, sometimes doctors will 'lie' to the patient and pretend the illness isn't as serious as it is.

But I have often wondered about the commandments.. i.e 'Thou shalt not kill'... clearly it would seem to be ok to kill in self defence... or even in the defence of somebody else... God probably didn't want to do what modern legislators do and attempt to define the rights and wrongs of every situation. But this leaves the commandments very empty in my opinion.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

Brother Andrew, the author of God's Smuggler used to smuggle Bibles into the Soviet Union. He operated on a policy of never telling a lie, but used to ask God to 'blind the eyes' of the border guards so they would fail to detect his cargo.

On one occasion a border guard asked him point blank what was in the boot of his car. Required to answer a direct question, and unwilling to lie, he answered "1000 Bibles!" The guard started laughing and said, "That's a good joke." then waved him on through.

Great story, and a great example for christians IMO. So where do you stand on the question?

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

Great story, and a great example for christians IMO. So where do you stand on the question?

I would believe that lying is always wrong, but I can see instances where telling a lie may prevent a much greater evil from occurring. For example, someone sheltering Jewish children from the Nazis would probably have had to lie to protect the children.

I do, however, feel uncomfortable with this because it leads into the idea of situational ethics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_ethics

If we go down that road then we end up with an "end justifies the means" morality where suicide bombing becomes justifiable. That is a slippery slope that I would be very loathe to set foot upon.

I am reminded of Augustine of Hippo's comment on the lies Rahab told to protect the Israelite spies in the Book of Joshua: He praised "the benignity of her intention" but condemned "the iniquity of her invention."

Red Alert

The simple thing I always bring things down to is: "love one another as I loved you, and love your neighbour as yourself". To enjoy christian love with somebody there has to be trust involved. If we lie, not only do we have the potential to break this - we also say that our relationship with the truth (and the person or party attaching to it) is more important than the person we lie to.

Another angle: knowledge is power, similar in ways to a car or a gun. You'd never hand a sociopath a loaded gun, so why would you rat out say a fleeing Jew from the Nazis. Until you decide whether or not to tell the truth (or alternatively the lie) essentially you are deciding whether to trust someone with god's creation.

Intresting examples from the bible would be the escape from King Herod of the Christ Child and the luring of Pharoh's army into the sea.