Independent Complaints & Standards board.

Repeating Henry

To be serious for a moment, can the SSIA / FLAG, NRGC or whoever is in or
out of power tell the ordinary shooting enthusiast what sort of structures
are in place to deal with some of the issues and complaints highlighted here on boards. This I would add is possibly the tip of the iceberg from what i have heard over the years. Relying on the industry to regulate itself is obviously a complete waste of time. Does the new legislation have within it
this sort of body or something like it to stop once and for all this sort of crap
started by Bob who seems to have deposited his load and scooted away happening over and over again. If the GARDA and lots of other Organizations
now have this sort of structure as a means of regulation why not Shooting
sports in general!

The IRISH SHOOTER's Digest had an article by DES CROFTON some time back
giving the lash to the compulsive addicted sign shooter, MR COOL with all the
flashy gear but can't hit nothing and MR know it all. What about a new article
looking this time at the other side of the fence. The people who run this sport
The Mr Bully, Mr money grabber etc. Why such reluctance to speak up, how
about the fact that if you're beloved is licensed with one the nasties you
are had by the short & curlies.

To the administrators of boards: This outlet for Irish Shooting is very Much appreciated as a means of expression one of the only places in fact where
members get to let off a little steam. Keep up the good work.
Henry.

Sparks

Repeating Henry wrote: »

To be serious for a moment, can the SSIA / FLAG, NRGC or whoever is in or out of power tell the ordinary shooting enthusiast what sort of structures are in place to deal with some of the issues and complaints highlighted here on boards.

Simply put, there are none.

In more detail, there is a body recently formed for arbitration called Just Sport Ireland, but I don't know if any of the shooting bodies are yet signed up to it. I know that the NTSA expressed interest to JSI, but there hasn't been much progress on that front because I didn't have enough time to progress it during my stint. And such a body would be the avenue of last recourse by design - JSI assumes that internal disciplinary procedures have been followed by the parties prior to contacting JSI (as do all sports arbitration bodies, right up the the "supreme court" of sports arbitration bodies, the Court of Arbitration for Sport).

There is the option with some bodies, such as the NTSA, for members of the body to call upon the mechanisms laid down in the Companies Acts in events where grievances cannot be resolved - but such routes are expensive for all involved and suboptimal overall as a result. Within bodies such as the SSAI which are unincorporated (private clubs, in legal terms), there is no such option as there are in effect, no laws which apply to the actions of a private body and no third party to call in for arbitration, ruling or enforcement, as there would be in the case of the NTSA or clubs/ranges formed as limited companies.

Does the new legislation have within it this sort of body or something like it

No, and it would not be the place of the Firearms Act to lay out such a structure.

What about a new article looking this time at the other side of the fence. The people who run this sport The Mr Bully, Mr money grabber etc. Why such reluctance to speak up

Irish Libel Law is possibly the most unfairly drafted section of law in the entire country's body of regulation. That's the main cause. Personally, I have been threatened with libel actions on four seperate occasions, if I've not lost count. It's an intimidation technique - at least one of the occasions was a case which was specifically ruled out by libel law (you can't be sued for reporting the outcome of a high court case). Thing is, many bodies and people are intimidated successfully by such threats (in part because not many people have the time, the motivation, or the inclination to read through legal texts on the matter). Also, in many cases, people can say "oh, X never happened to me" because formally, officially, X never happened - but for all intents and purposes, it did. For a hypothetical example, leaving a club before you're formally expelled. Were someone to do this, that someone cannot legally be said to have been expelled from that club - no matter how miniscule the effective difference outside of a courtroom.

To the administrators of boards: This outlet for Irish Shooting is very Much appreciated as a means of expression one of the only places in fact where
members get to let off a little steam. Keep up the good work.

The administrators are fully aware of the situation Henry, but they can't be expected to accept liability for our community's problems. Hence the recent sticky. There is no malice in that sticky. And if the worst comes to the worst, we'll sort out some mechanism to keep a forum open for the community.

Repeating Henry

Spark's the answer you posted is more or less what I expected. If the sport
was going to self-regulate it would have happened a long time ago, so it's
going to be the very same this time next year and the year after until someone drags commonsense out our lofty leaders and sits them in the year
2007!

The other option would be to voluntary agree to a Complaint & Standards body when this new panel is set up. You will have all the right people in place why not make this happen taking advantage of the setting, from then on all authorizations will depend on the recognition of this new body and what it stands for. Can it really be that difficult! After all this new body would be made up of members from the sport itself!

If nothing changes then it's back to more of the same,wild west & OK Coral
mud slinging the FAI had it's Sipan which ended up on stage. How about
I,Bobo the musical... Bob the shooter v blooming MickO'C.

Repeat on that love Henry.

Sparks

You will have all the right people in place why not make this happen taking advantage of the setting, from then on all authorizations will depend on the recognition of this new body and what it stands for.

No personal offence meant Henry, but you have to seriously rethink that idea. You're talking about trying to fix a problem - namely that lots of bodies provide inadaquate dispute resolution mechanisms - by creating a more serious version of the problem - namely creating a body with real teeth for enforcement, but still without adaquate dispute resolution mechanisms.

What is required to fix this is every single club and range and NGB putting in place dispute resolution mechanisms that leverage the services provided - for free at the moment - by the Just Sport Ireland arbitration body. The Federation of Irish Sports is helping this body get set up, and the ICPSA, the SSAI and the NTSA are all members of the FIS. Get every NGB to sign up; then get every club to agree to a standard set of dispute resolution protocols that include the JSI as the last recourse; and then you'll at least have the framework to tackle such problems as they arise.

But what you're talking about is like giving someone a great big stick without laying out under what conditions that stick can be used. It's not a good way to proceed, in my opinion.

Sparks

From the Federation of Irish Sports website:

“Sports organisations do best to resolve differences under their own governing codes, rather than resource to courts of law. Issues of natural justice are important but the substance of matters rather than their form is important in seeking to resolve internal disputes in such organisations and recourse to the courts should be a last resort, and only in the rarest of cases”. Justice Smyth, High Court, 2007.



In recent years almost all of Ireland’s leading sports organisations have found themselves in court defending themselves against aggrieved athletes or clubs on issues ranging from disciplinary maters, eligibility, admission to competition to composition of leagues or registration. Such court actions can be time consuming, costly and bitter. It is against that background that the Federation of Irish Sport has set up Just Sport Ireland - “an independent specialised dispute resolution service for Irish sport” according to Ms Sarah O’Connor, chief executive of the Federation of Irish Sports. Ms O’Connor was speaking at the launch of JSI which took place earlier today, 25 October 2007, in Croke Park Dublin.



The Federation of Irish Sports (FIS) was established in 2002 to act as an independent voice for sport in Ireland. Currently there are 62 sports governing bodies affiliated to the FIS including all of the larger sports organisations. The establishment of Just Sport Ireland by the FIS is as a direct response to a need perceived right across Irish sport. It is not intended to be in competition with the internal procedures already in position within individual sports but rather to have an alternative process than recourse to the High Court where the internal process fails to produce a resolution to a dispute. Similar initiatives have been set up in the UK (1999), Canada (2001) and New Zealand (2003) in recent years.



In setting up Just Sport Ireland (JSI) the Federation of Irish Sports was assisted and supported by a number of different bodies. These included:-



Ø A&L Goodbody

Ø The Bar Council of Ireland

Ø The Irish Sports Council

Ø One Resolve (specialist Irish mediation service)

Ø Artizan Creative (web company)



JSI has been set up as a company limited by guarantee. Its board of directors are

Ø Ercus Stewart SC

Ø Debbie Massey (CEO, Basketball Ireland)

Ø Derek Brennan (President, the Federation of Irish Sports)

Ø Sinead O’Connor (Sponsorship and Finance Manager, Cumann Camogaiochta na nGael)

Ø Jim Glennon

Ø Paddy Boyd

Ø Roderick Maguire BL

Ø Sarah O’Connor (CEO, the Federation of Irish Sports)




Attorney General Paul Gallagher SC was the guest of honour at the launch of JSI. In addressing the many sports represented at the launch he noted the increasing number of sporting disputes that had ended up in the courts in recent years. He said that while this was understandable, given the importance of sport today, that he believed the courts should only be seen as a last resort. He believed JSI would provide an invaluable service which hopefully would alleviate the need to bring sporting matters to the courts.



Mr Ercus Stewart SC, chairman of JSI, said that

Alternative dispute resolution has long been the procedure of choice in the international sporting world. Given the increasing volume of litigation permeating the Irish Sporting world the establishment of Just Sport Ireland is a welcome and long-overdue development. The mediation and arbitration services provided Just Sport Ireland shall, at long last, provide the Irish Sporting Community with a fair, impartial, cost- effective and efficient means for resolving sporting disputes and help to ensure justice and fairness in sport.



Just Sport Ireland has been founded on the tenents of simplicity, accessibility and enforceability. Its establishment is a very welcome development for Irish sport and should assist in ensuring that the limited resources available to the majority of Irish sporting organisations are directed, as they should be, to sport itself and not consumed by expensive and lengthy court battles. I commend Just Sport Ireland to all national governing bodies of sport and their members as a fair, inexpensive and expeditious method of resolving disputes that remain unresolved after all the procedures allowed for within the sport have been exhausted.”



Speaking at the launch Ms Sarah O’Connor, CEO of the Federation of Irish Sports emphasised that fact that JSI had not been set up to replace the procedures already in place in individual sports. She said the services being provided by JSI will in most instances only come into play when a sports own procedures have not resolved the dispute to the satisfaction of both parties.



“I would point out that the way in which arbitration and mediation works is that a dispute can only be submitted to arbitration / mediation if both parties to a dispute agree to it or there is a pre-existing agreement in the rules of a governing body stating that any dispute that arises is to be submitted to arbitration / mediation. It should also be noted that while the service provided by JSI is being provided for the entire sporting community in Ireland whether or not each sports chooses to use it as a matter of course is in the hands of each sporting organisation themselves. Basketball Ireland have already inserted a clause into the governing rules providing for mandatory referral to JSI and Special Olympics are proposing to make a similar change.”



“It is a principal aim of JSI that the mediation and arbitration processes offered by it will be cost effective. We recognise that resources for many sports organisations and amateur athletes are scarce. Therefore, JSI seeks to provide more favourable alternatives to pursuing what can be an expensive, protracted High Court action, with all the potential for adverse publicity and damaging relations, such an action can entail, largely avoided. Thus JSI is designed so that parties need not be represented by lawyers, whether they are a sporting body, a national governing body or an athlete. The parties may represent themselves.”



JSI has will provide mediation and arbitration across a widespread area of possible disputes arising in a sporting context. Such disputes do not include anti doping or employment issues which are adequately dealt with the by the Irish Sports Council's Anti-Doping Disciplinary Panel and the Employment Appeals Tribunal. Based on recent types of cases that have ended up in the courts and a number of enquiries received by JSI it is likely that disputes to come before JSI will include:



Ø Selection disputes

Ø National governing body / branch / club / players disputes

Ø Disciplinary appeals

Ø Licensing appeals




JSI has set up two specialised panels of mediators and arbitrators. Both panels are comprised of accredited mediators / arbitrators, are totally independent and have a level of interest and/or experience of sport. In the main those on both panels have a legal background.



It is also the remit of JSI to provide mediation and arbitration services in a cost effective manner that reflect the finances typically available to Irish sports bodies and athletes / participants. JSI is also fully committed to providing the services in a timeframe to suit the sports.



Full details of Just Sport Ireland are available from the JSI website

www.justsport.ie or from the Federation of Irish Sports at 01 6251155