Will more speed training make a difference now?

billyhead

Hi All,

I am running the New York Marathon on Sunday week and was wondering would any more speedwork on the track or interval training on the grass help now, or should I give it a miss in case I pick up an injury and concentrate on steady/easy runs over the next 10 days. I ran a 10 mile race last Saturday and was thinking of leaving my last speed work so to speak as that. The best of luck to anyone running the Dublin Marathon.

Clum

With less than 2 weeks to go to New York it's time to start taking it easy.

You'll benefit more from rest than hard training at this stage.

Pherekydes

Avoid all faster stuff from now on, unless you're aiming to win it. Avoid injuries at all costs. Maybe a tempo run, but easy stuff mostly. Are you carbo loading?

Good luck in the Big Apple!

cfitz

Slow coach wrote: »

Avoid all faster stuff from now on, unless you're aiming to win it.

I don't know very much about training for marathons, but should the percentage of 'faster' training not be the same for the winner as it is for someone much further down the field?

Pherekydes

cfitz wrote: »

I don't know very much about training for marathons, but should the percentage of 'faster' training not be the same for the winner as it is for someone much further down the field?

I doubt it. I'm no expert either, but "down-the-field" runners don't have the same time to devote to training as the pros, so they need to concentrate on the basics, like getting the distance.

cfitz

Well if he is training fairly seriously for this marathon (though perhaps not aiming to win it), does the advice still apply?

It's hard question advice on a message board without sounding rude, but I just think that some of the advice given here is often given under the assumption that the athlete posting isn't talented and hard-working.

Pherekydes

cfitz wrote: »

Well if he is training fairly seriously for this marathon (though perhaps not aiming to win it), does the advice still apply?

It's hard question advice on a message board without sounding rude, but I just think that some of the advice given here is often given under the assumption that the athlete posting isn't talented and hard-working.

Again, trying not to sound rude, but if the dude is talented, hard-working and training fairly seriously then he's probably going to have a coach, who'll give him answers to these types of questions. If he doesn't have a coach, then he probably knows as much as anyone else.

When someone posts, it often seems to me that they are not sure what they're doing is right. Very few posters give away much about themselves so it's hard to know how to pitch the advice.

"I just ran 30 mins for 10k, and next week I'm running my first marathon..."

"I just ran 60 mins for 10k..."

I wouldn't even proffer advice to the first of these.

--amadeus--

cfitz wrote: »

Well if he is training fairly seriously for this marathon (though perhaps not aiming to win it), does the advice still apply?

It's hard question advice on a message board without sounding rude, but I just think that some of the advice given here is often given under the assumption that the athlete posting isn't talented and hard-working.

Most advice carries regardless of ability and I don't find teh advice on here to be pitched at too low a level, in general.

On your more specific point about does this advice apply... There maybe 30,000+ runners in NY (I can't be bothered looking up the numbers) but of those maybe 10 have a realsitic chance of winning. The people who finish in the top 100 places are not the same as you or I - they will be rattleing out huge weekly mileage, have daily massages, special nutritionists dedicated to thier every whim and medical and coaching staff tending to thier bodies. For them a short sharpener may be just what the doctor (literally) orders. For the rest of us a tough session a week or two out carries teh risk of a strain or pull that would ruin 6 months of training.

Likewise teh % of faster work in general would be very different for an elite runner versus a mid packer, though this changes as you go down the field. The OP has a very fast target time in place so they will have already done a lot of speedwork but I would guess a lot less than a potential winner. So yes, it does make a difference where in teh order the runner is as to teh proportion of training he/she does.

cfitz

--amadeus-- wrote: »

On your more specific point about does this advice apply... There maybe 30,000+ runners in NY (I can't be bothered looking up the numbers) but of those maybe 10 have a realsitic chance of winning. The people who finish in the top 100 places are not the same as you or I - they will be rattleing out huge weekly mileage, have daily massages, special nutritionists dedicated to thier every whim and medical and coaching staff tending to thier bodies. For them a short sharpener may be just what the doctor (literally) orders. For the rest of us a tough session a week or two out carries teh risk of a strain or pull that would ruin 6 months of training.

2:35 would have got you in the top 100 in New York last year. I might have to take up marathons if that gets you special nutritionists, medical, and coaching staff.

thirtyfoot

cfitz wrote: »

2:35 would have got you in the top 100 in New York last year. I might have to take up marathons if that gets you special nutritionists, medical, and coaching staff.

You are right, 2:35 is far from elite if your a man and guys running that would probably be holding down a job, rearing a family, getting the odd rub, cooking their own meals. Very, very few athletes have an all singing, all dancing, prodding, poking 24-7 support team. Some olympic champions wouldn't even have it.

I'd be agreeing with Slowcoach on this one, the risk of injury from doing extra speedwork so close to your marathon wouldn't be worth the possible benefit of having a little more sharpness on the day.

--amadeus--

cfitz wrote: »

2:35 would have got you in the top 100 in New York last year. I might have to take up marathons if that gets you special nutritionists, medical, and coaching staff.

Should have bothered to look up the numbers as I picked the top 100 figure out of the air, but anyway...

The Olymplic qualifying time for the women's marathon is 2:37, for men the B standard is 2:18. The fastest time by an Irishman this year is 2:27 and according to http://www.athleticsdata.com/rankings/rankinglist.aspx?event=Mar&agegroup=ALL&sex=M&year=2007 only 56 UK men have run sub 2:35 this year. On that basis I would have put a 2:35 runner down as pretty close to elite, in performance if not in perks!

Anyway the initial comment was about winning the marathon and the handful of runners that would be expecting to win do have specialist advisors. The question was weither the advice for someone wanting to win is different for someone competing against the clock and clearly the answer is yes.

Koroibos

Slow coach wrote: »

but if the dude is talented, hard-working and training fairly seriously then he's probably going to have a coach, who'll give him answers to these types of questions.

I wouldn't be too suprised if a lot of "talented, hard-working" athletes in the top ten doen't have coaches. I believe when Pinto won in London he was self coached. I am sure you as a coach have a few questions now and then.

It is true to say that the elites would have done more speed sessions but it is also true to say they have done more miles a week and runs a day. I can't think of any physiological reason why a 5 hour marathon runner would not train the same as an elite. Just slower and less.

While the need to be comfortable running a fast pace for a elite is essential, but what is a fast pace? For a beginner a fast pace may be 10 minute miling, all their training may have been at 12 minute miling. In all the excitement they may start off at 10 minute miling, a "fast pace". Would speed work have prepared them for that and increased the chances of them recovering and being able to finish the marathon. It is more likeily that a beginner gets the pacing wrong.

I can't see why some easy "speed training" would not aid all. Some 1k with long recovery (not at a fast pace and lots of recovery time) would keep the legs fresher than going out doing a 8 mile run.

As I have never run a marathon I would be open to being corrected on this.

ob

You're best to concentrate on easy/steady runs with only 10 days to go. It takes a few weeks for the benefit of speed work sessions to really kick in.

Peckham

ob wrote: »

You're best to concentrate on easy/steady runs with only 10 days to go. It takes a few weeks for the benefit of speed work sessions to really kick in.

Unless you've been doing speedwork throughout training (which it seems the original poster has)...for example in my penultimate run on Saturday I'll be doing some 100m strides to keep leg speed up.

ss43

Does effective tapering not involve same intensity as previous weeks with reduced quantity.

i.e. you'd reduce the distance of your runs but keep the pace the same. The same would apply to session - less or shorter reps but same pace, maybe longer recovery as well.

If you haven't been doing sessions you shouldn't take them up in the last week or two but if you have you should continue with them.

Ideally you would have race pace work brought in by this stage too.

What do people here mean by speedwork as it's a term applied to many different meanings? For me speedwork would involve few reps, long recoveries and max distance of the rep would be 300m but I know some people would consider 10x400m a speedwork session.

Stupid_Private

Hi Billyhead,

If I remember correctly from reading your times for the half and your goal time for the marathon I think you're aiming few minutes ahead of my time for Dublin (and New York is a tough marathon so best of luck).

With that I'll give you the advice I was given by my coach for the last 2 weeks. The second last week I went out on the Tuesday and Friday (my usual speed work days) and did 8 miles with 8 x 1 minute intervals. Thats cutting it back from the usual throughout the past few months. The long Sunday run was cut down to 14miles. The rest of the runs for the week were as normal.

This week most of the runs are 5 miles but on Tuesday I did a few intervals in that 5 miles. Nothing too serious, just to stop the legs from getting too heavy. I'll probably throw a few intervals into Fridays as well - again fairly handy, about 5 or 6 of them for 30 or 40 seconds.

Hope this helps and good luck

billyhead

Thanks for all the advice.

I will do a 7-8 mile tempo run tonight and one track session next Tuesday (6 or 8 400s). I reckon that will be enough of speed training for the marathon. I didn't do a track session on Tuesday because the legs were a bit heavy from last weekends work i.e the 10 mile race I ran on Staurday and then a 10 mile recovery run on Sunday. I reckon I should get around my target time of 2hrs 45. I ran the 10 miler in under 56 minutes, and have 4 20 mile runs in the legs from the training. Its just a matter of getting to the start line now without any injuries. Best of luck all.