Starting a Player Commission in Ireland - Opinions Needed

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Really Think we should start a I.P.A Irish Poker Association and this sets the rules for all events and is controlled by BigSlick/GJP/Poker Events/Cue Club/JP /Macau/Sporting/Fitz/Lukes .Etc

We come up with aset of rules to be used throughout Ireland. Also Vote in the Positions in the association what ever tehy may be

We will need to have a meeting about this and Tom (devore) Connie and myself are in aggreement so far on this i want to get the likes of Luke/Fintan/JP/E.t.c all in the one room and set Rules that are standard here in Ireland and then have a commision for Poker Rooms/Casinos in Ireland . This will keep us all playing from the same deck of rules

Even if we dont start this i still feel we should set out a standard set of rules which become universal in Ireland and we are all on the same field then when events are being run

Neill K

Mellor

+1
Great idea Neil, its been needed for a while, I notice you left out CPT

5starpool

If this could happen I think it would be great.

connie147

We've been talking about this on the other thread(sneaky play or crafty move thread). I asked DeV to take the helm and I'm willing to put time and effort into it. I also asked DeV about starting a new thread where players and all others who post here and have an interest could post threads about rules that they feel need clarrifying. It would be of great benefiot before we sit down and thrash it out.

Mellor

connie147 wrote: »

We've been talking about this on the other thread(sneaky play or crafty move thread). I asked DeV to take the helm and I'm willing to put time and effort into it. I also asked DeV about starting a new thread where players and all others who post here and have an interest could post threads about rules that they feel need clarrifying. It would be of great benefiot before we sit down and thrash it out.

The main issue wouldn't be the rules in general, its the procedures that differ from location to location, organiser to organiser,
Things such as chipping up, exposed cards etc. Like a card on the second round exposed, deal on and use as the burn or third from bottom and the burn as intended (both give same flop btw), or the old favourite show one show all, sort it out for all the people who mix it up

Four of a kind

This is a great idea and an area in which would serve poker in Ireland a great deal. Wonder this was'nt thought of before! A standard list of rules is def a must for all decent tourney's.

goldclubcasino

Sounds like a great idea. More than happy to contribute in any way I can.

DeVore

Four of a kind wrote: »

This is a great idea and an area in which would serve poker in Ireland a great deal. Wonder this was'nt thought of before! A standard list of rules is def a must for all decent tourney's.

It was attempted before but it was too soon as there werent as many independant operators or players.

I hadn't been thinking about an organisation beyond the rules document, most casinos have aligned themselves with GALA and I'd be loath to splinter our representation with the government, but a players association could work.

DeV.

bohsman

You wont get the major casinos onboard.

bohsman

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote: »

we set a rules set and are open to any queries and changes in Ireland with regards Legislation and rules E.T.C i mean the Gala commision is great but not Irish so why not get the ball rolling,


Neill K

In what way is Gala - Gaming and leisure assoc of Ireland not Irish?

BIG-SLICK-POKER

bohsman wrote: »

In what way is Gala - Gaming and leisure assoc of Ireland not Irish?

#

Dunno always thought it was English ?? Really it will be just a players association so that was only a thought is all .. We learn something everyday Oscar lol

Caboose

Put me down for this. I loves me's rules I do. 19 pages and still going strong
I always said consistency was the key in any card room so bring on the pain!!!!


:eek:

DeVore

I agree with Bohs, we wouldnt get the casino's on board but that is probably ok. I think we shouldnt interfere with GALA who are representing the industry but no one is really looking after the players and the poker managers are always left on their own too, as the casino's care about the pit more then poker.

Anyway, a unified rules set is an achieveable end. Caboose, you are elected chief note taker

DeV.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

DeVore wrote: »

I agree with Bohs, we wouldnt get the casino's on board but that is probably ok. I think we shouldnt interfere with GALA who are representing the industry but no one is really looking after the players and the poker managers are always left on their own too, as the casino's care about the pit more then poker.

Anyway, a unified rules set is an achieveable end. Caboose, you are elected chief note taker

DeV.

Agreed Tom ,

This was just a brain Fart side thought .... Where and when is next ?? Waterford 4 weeks day before maybe or day after or a festival we will all be at also .

connie147

The Waterford festival week-end, either the Sunday or the Monday. It gives everyone a months notice. And I agree with Mellor, it is rules like the show one show all, replacing a deal card when it gets turned over, moving players from one table to another. You'd be surprised at the amount of different scenarios I've seen of just something simple like moving a player from 1 table to another.

Caboose

hmmm will have to get down to Waterford so....

If I may make a suggestion? Surely everyone has a set of rules in their Clubs or for events. Bring all these down. I know that everyone has come across something completely insane at some point and has adjusted for it.

Yes there are universal issues like misdeals, etc etc but when all those have been exhausted and put to bed there are plenty more subtle issues that would have to be addressed, depending on how much detail you actually want to go into for this set.

Anyhoo I'm printed off and ready to go. Now all I have to do are tie sheets together and sneak out the bathroom window in work and make my way to Waterford....


:eek:

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Caboose wrote: »

hmmm will have to get down to Waterford so....

If I may make a suggestion? Surely everyone has a set of rules in their Clubs or for events. Bring all these down. I know that everyone has come across something completely insane at some point and has adjusted for it.

Yes there are universal issues like misdeals, etc etc but when all those have been exhausted and put to bed there are plenty more subtle issues that would have to be addressed, depending on how much detail you actually want to go into for this set.

Anyhoo I'm printed off and ready to go. Now all I have to do are tie sheets together and sneak out the bathroom window in work and make my way to Waterford....


:eek:

Still hoping u can make it mate , Im relyin on my team being the same

RoundTower

sounds like a good idea. I really hope the rules end up being more like the US and less like the UK.

5starpool

Are you talking about specifics like double the raise and not double the bet Dave or talking about other things?

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote: »

sounds like a good idea. I really hope the rules end up being more like the US and less like the UK.

Couldn't agree more with that.

Just out of curiosity are there any other European countries with a similar organisation in place and if yes is there anything we can learn from them?

mdwexford

RoundTower wrote: »

sounds like a good idea. I really hope the rules end up being more like the US and less like the UK.

What rules from the US do you think are better??

Goodluck2me

mdwexford wrote: »

What rules from the US do you think are better??

the min raise rule, the cutting of chips over the line, the less strenuous string bet rule.
Id like it if show one card meant nothing, continued with show one player show everyone obv, a little tightening up with language abuse too. Cant thing of too many others from the top of my dome...

mdwexford

goodluck2me wrote: »

the min raise rule, the cutting of chips over the line, the less strenuous string bet rule.
Id like it if show one card meant nothing, continued with show one player show everyone obv, a little tightening up with language abuse too. Cant thing of too many others from the top of my dome...

I agree with all of those apart from the show one card rule but i am considering the plus points of it lately.

RoundTower

5starpool wrote: »

Are you talking about specifics like double the raise and not double the bet Dave or talking about other things?

every rule except that one, I quite like double the total bet and the only reason I would change it is to make it more standard for foreign players or those used to internet poker. String bets, speech play, the real "show one show all" rule, live straddles, transparent rake/time, all these are handled better in the US IMO.

DeVore

I like the double the total bet rule too and I think its ubiquitously followed here so it would be too big a change and would introduce MORE disparity between games rather then less.

Things like string betting and replacing an exposed card could well do with standardisation as lots of different methods are used at the moment.

DeV.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Also on String Betting in the W.S.O.P they allow players say Raise and then stack the chips in piles across the way on the table if this was some place the first action in the pile would be taken as the raise and be called a string bet .

Hectorjelly

I dont like the idea of this taking place without a major stakeholders voice there, so I propose at least one or two players representatives. Although id be happy to do it, I don't think i'm the best choice because I'm not that clear on a few rules that apply offline. Someone like Roundtower would be good.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

goodluck2me wrote: »

, the cutting of chips over the line

I think this is what i am on about also joe looks so good in the W.S.O.P but over here taken as a string bet .

NickyOD

With regard to the double the total bet rule, I've no problem either way but I would prefer the same as the internet and almost every other country, because should other countries follow suit with their own player bodies, we will almost certainly be out on our own with a rule that visiting players already think is stupid.

ozpoker

I think this is a great idea. I'd be happy to volunteer as a hybrid player/online industry rep.

-Oz-

BigCityBanker

ozpoker wrote: »

I think this is a great idea. I'd be happy to volunteer as a hybrid player/online industry rep.

-Oz-

ditto.

HeeHawsCantona

DeVore wrote: »

I like the double the total bet rule too and I think its ubiquitously followed here so it would be too big a change and would introduce MORE disparity between games rather then less.

Things like string betting and replacing an exposed card could well do with standardisation as lots of different methods are used at the moment.

DeV.

I'm a big supporter of GJP and love playing their games with the exception of the double the total bet rule - IMHO it takes a huge amount of skill out of the game.

5starpool

HeeHawsCantona wrote: »

I'm a big supporter of GJP and love playing their games with the exception of the double the total bet rule - IMHO it takes a huge amount of skill out of the game.

Where have you played inIreland that this wasn't the case?

DeVore

HeeHawsCantona wrote: »

I'm a big supporter of GJP and love playing their games with the exception of the double the total bet rule - IMHO it takes a huge amount of skill out of the game.

Interesting, thanks for the compliment too.

I'm really surprised you think it would take away a lot of skill?? Almost no one else seems to care (or even notice!).

DeV.

valor

how the hell does double total bet take away a huge amount of skill?

i think it should follow the internet way but its not a huge diff really

goldclubcasino

We used to employ the double the last raise rule rather than double the last total bet, but found that it only really mattered when it came to all in situations,
(Other than players mickey mousing around when the flop comes with 3 clubs, Bet 3; raise to 6; re-raise 9 etc..)
e.g.
Blinds are 100/200
Player A limp UTG with a stack of 2,000.
Folded around and SB completes, BB raises to 1,100
Player A then re raises all in;
SB call;
BB- ??

Now with the double raise rule BB can still re-isolate(Because the raise was essentially 900 [from 200-1100])

With the double the last bet he could not.

I find that good players notice stack sizes anyway, so whichever rule is employed, players that care about the rule will know how much to raise so that in the event a short stack going all in he can re-isolate.

People who don't tend to notice such things in poker IMHO don't care about this rule and were sometimes confused with it. So to make it easier on players (And dealers/croupiers!) we changed policy to double the last total bet.

To summarise, I much prefer the double the last total bet rule rather than last raise. It's easier for a larger number of players to understand, speeds up the game and makes life alot easier for staff.

mrflash

I presume this organisation would be involved with poker tournaments only?

NickyOD

I mentioned to Jesse Jones, founder of the WPA, about this discussion.

There are several countries that now have similar associations and they will be invited to become affiliates of the WPA as it is their goal to have professional standards in poker throughout the World.

Becoming an affiliate of the WPA would bring with it additional benefits to Irish players. Current WPA members get cheaper flights and hotel rates. Uniting with WPA is likely to bring greater opportunities to Irish poker in the long term so I think it would be essential.

JP Poker

NickyOD wrote: »

With regard to the double the total bet rule, I've no problem either way but I would prefer the same as the internet and almost every other country, because should other countries follow suit with their own player bodies, we will almost certainly be out on our own with a rule that visiting players already think is stupid.

.

I agree, why use a rule that would be different to the rest of the world. We all use this rule online anyway, when the EPT comes to town, it's also used.

I've always used the double the raise not total bet rule myself.

JP Poker

ozpoker wrote: »

I think this is a great idea. I'd be happy to volunteer as a hybrid player/online industry rep.

-Oz-

.

Oz,

Maybe would get your chance to change the rule on having to show your cards if a player mucks on the river, like in the IPO.

Your counter reasoning to the collusion rule was very interesting.

Caboose

I think one of the main issues along with the rulings is Etiquette at the tables... keeping things civilised. I know we've all had to step in and be the bad guy to head off trouble before it starts but is it even possible to enforce etiquette?

I always try and take the diplomatic position and address the situation to the whole table and not just one player but I have noticed, as a player in other clubs and as TD in various events and clubs, especially in cash games (where else ) that players seem to be getting rattier and rattier as the months progress.

If someone loses a pot for quite a substantial amount and the other player is so obnoxious to jump up and down and whoop like a fricking cowboy of course the losing player is going to react. The last thing I want to have to do is pull off either player and have a word with them. Obviously to the victor maybe to calm down and take a more professional approach but the last thing I would want as a player is to be taken aside and be told "I know he won the pot and I know he's overreacting but try and calm down or I'll have to give you a time out." I've had to do this on several occassions but it should never have happened.

So apologies for creating more paper work but I really feel like this should be addressed in this meeting.

Opinions???

Cheers
Caboose

kincsem

None of that taking in the small and big blind into the main pot before a card is dealt lark that they use in the Gutshot. I folded my big blind a few times.

jem

JP Poker wrote: »

.



I've always used the double the raise not total bet rule myself.

so have i in the few I have run.

30something

This might be out in left field but let's assume a set of rules is drawn up and an association formed, what happens in the event of an alleged breach of the rules by:

a. The Player ... Will the rules incorporate penaties for the breach? Will there be an "on the spot penalty", will there be any appeals proceedure?

b. The TD. If the TD gets a decision wrong (mis-interprets a rule or whatever), is there any recourse by the player?

Consider a tourney like the IPO, lets say its near the bubble and a decision is made that affects a player. What if that player does not like the decision? If the prize money is big enough and there is an Association and a documented set of rules which have been breached is there a litigation risk? If so against who? Will the organisers be in the line of fire? Do they need to consider insurance?

Have you taken on board the Rules of Natural Justice?

carfax

I think the idea of a bit more consistency in general rules is the idea behind this and is badly needed obviously.

We (Poker Ireland) tried to get something going like this a while ago and GJP tried this a few years ago as far as I remember but yeah the time seems right now to organise ourselves a little bit better.

There should be some sort of fee paid by organisers to subscribe to the association because at the end of the day somebody will have to put in a lot of work for this and they should be looked after for their time imo.

Joining the WPA is also a must as the work they are doing is hugely important.

Just my two cents.