The dark side of Muay Thai

Khannie

There's a blog that I read every once in a while over on www.mymuaythai.com and just had a look there today. Thought I'd share this post in particular with you:

http://www.mymuaythai.com/archives/2020-raised-in-the-ring/

It's about kids fighting in Thailand. Some fairly disturbing stuff in there. As a parent, it makes me very thankful that I don't have to face decisions like that.

HammerHeadGym

It's no big deal really. I watch the kids here, fighting every week and there is almost never an injury. The kids love it because of all the positive attention they get, not to mention the money. And there is never a parrent forcing a child to do it. Many of them are glad at the opertunity to get off the bread line. There is one child in our gym who is saving half of his pay from each fight, to go to business school when he turns 16. Without Muay Thai, he'd be humping bricks the rest of his life. Sure, there not all going to make it to the big time with the big purse, but they wouldn't have the chance of anything without the sport.

U ever been to Thailand? Its a way of life over there. we look at it and are shocked but they dont even bat an eyelid to it. Also families support their kids to do it because it is a potential money maker for the family, thats why thai fellas have so many pro fights.

Eamon Hennessy

Somethings in Muay thai in Thailand are messed up, i saw a fight in Ubon Ratchathani, this guy with a clear intellectual disability faught a guy who was really drunk and the guys beat the
head off each other for five rounds in a terrible fight and it was just a big laugh for the crowd, it was sick in my opinion.

Dave Joyce

Without wanting to sound patronising, we're talkin about a third world country where there is no welfare or handouts and if you ain't got money you don't eat!! A lot of families are so poor their kids are sometimes sent away because the family can't afford to feed them. You should really check out Buddhas Lost Children when its released in the cinema and see the effect it has on families.

To the Thai's (well a lot of them anyways) we're mad cause we fight and we don't have to. To a lot of people, over there, its a lucrative job with a lot of bonuses and publicity. Yea, I've seen plenty of things over there that didn't sit particularly well with me but certainly wouldn't critise anyone over there, because I'm not coming from their background or living their life!!

Khannie

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Yea, I've seen plenty of things over there that didn't sit particularly well with me but certainly wouldn't critise anyone over there, because I'm not coming from their background or living their life!!

Ah I didn't criticise. All I said was I was thankful I don't have to face decisions like that and I really am very thankful. I'm sure it's a very tough spot to be in when your best chance of giving your little girl a good life is to stick her in the ring. Abject poverty or potentially brothel fighting. Horrible horrible choice.

johnathan woss

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Without wanting to sound patronising, we're talkin about a third world country where there is no welfare or handouts and if you ain't got money you don't eat!! A lot of families are so poor their kids are sometimes sent away because the family can't afford to feed them. You should really check out Buddhas Lost Children when its released in the cinema and see the effect it has on families.

To the Thai's (well a lot of them anyways) we're mad cause we fight and we don't have to. To a lot of people, over there, its a lucrative job with a lot of bonuses and publicity. Yea, I've seen plenty of things over there that didn't sit particularly well with me but certainly wouldn't critise anyone over there, because I'm not coming from their background or living their life!!

I saw a report on France 24 about a kids' fighting camp in Thailand.

They train as pros and get no education.
There is alot of betting on kids' bouts (the fans think it's more entertaining or funny, or whatever). Alot of money changes hands but obviously the kids see very little of it.

The ref stopped one fight because one young lad was getting a beating.
People who had put money on him nearly caused a riot and the bout had to be fought again. So the kid got a further beating (he was about eight).

I'll criticise all the above. It's wrong, end of story.

PeakOutput

i havnt read the article and im not a muay thai practitioner but i do love mma

my dad did too until he saw a documentary on discovery(i think) about muay thai. it was grand till there was two 12 year olds in a ring with one being very visibly beaten and was fairly bloody.....thats grand part of the sport i suppose..........the referee stops it but the bookies wont pay out as there was no knock out so they were forced back into the ring until one of them is knocked out..............thats not sport and its stopped him feeling comfortable watching any fight sports really(rightly or wrongly)

Khannie

That's the bookies fault IMO. TKO is TKO. The most important part of a refs job is knowing when to call the end of a fight. If they call it, that should be that. I certainly woulnd't bet with a bookie who forced an actual knockout when the ref has called the end of a fight. Stupid.

Millionaire

Go up to Isan, in North East (not exactly on tourist trail), where I used to live. By far the poorest part of Thailand.

Up there, things like gum guard, shin pads, are unheard of. I often seen the ONE pair of Muay Thai shorts been shared around 6 or 7 different lads who were all fight, as one had their own muay thai shorts. those fight nights, an old rickety ring with a few big light bulbs strung across the top, out off a back road on the rice fields, was the usual set up.
kids from 5 or 6 up to guys over 30 fighting, just for a few 100 Baht.

Its usually the kids only shot, at making it in life, become a "big champion" in Lumpinin. Most up in Isan, about 15 years old, if their good enough will start to get a few fights in Bangkok. (few make it to the top).

Its for money they fight, once they retire, say if they do not make it, usually 21 ish, never set foot in a boxing camp again. the odd few, maybe who get jobs as trainers on minimal money, ( these are not tourist camps, so only money is when someone wins a fight), the trainers might do local fights up until 30s , 1000 B (about 23 euro) for the winner... thats a weeks wages in a factory on 12 hours 6 days approx.

If you ever go to Isan and spend time, especially in small village like Nong Ki, Burriram (where I was for most of 2006), you will notice an extreme shortage of females age 18 - mid 30s... most of them are bargirls down in pattaya or bangkok. Its the only way of making money, and they do it to support their againg parents, the smart ones send enough money home, maybe to get a younger brother or sister through university.

No time to post photos, but if you want to see go to facebook and look for me Gerry Nolan under Region Thailand.. all my photos are open for all to see. you will see some of the young boxers etc..



They got no choice.

Roper

There are far worse and less equitable things that kids are made to do in third world countries than fight.

Khannie

Roper wrote: »

There are far worse and less equitable things that kids are made to do in third world countries than fight.

Jaysus roper! That's some serious sh1t right there!

RedRaven

Khannie wrote: »

Jaysus roper! That's some serious sh1t right there!

Serious but sadly very true.

Dave Joyce

There are far worse and less equitable things that kids are made to do in third world countries than fight

Absolutely and wow, you won't get to see that on TV programmes, which is where you get "real" world experience!!!

Roper

Yeah sorry for dragging the tone down but it's true. You can call kids fighting exploitation but to the families involved, its a very viable career for the kid in place where there's no jobs. From a first world perspective its not nice but we're sitting at laptops with our digital TV on in the background having just stuck something in the microwave. Some people have nothing.

I'm not condoning it by the way. I'm just saying that's the way it is and for a talented kid there's a way out of the life.

Seraphina

i'd agree with Roper. it may be awful and badly reffed, but the kids can make alot of money.

i'd rather see an 8 year old being trained to fight than sent to prostitution. which for the girls especially, is a scary reality.

johnathan woss

I'm not criticising the kids.

I'm criticising the pr*cks that bet on it.

mac123

johnathan woss wrote: »

I'll criticise all the above. It's wrong, end of story.

Different culture to be honest, its not your place to criticise.

Nothingcompares

?

That treatment of children is completely sickening (being forced to fight on and beaten up). Yes there are worse things in the world than that but it doesn't make it acceptable. Yes the people who profit at this form of child abuse are worse. The whole thing is disgusting regardless of cultural perspective.

Roper

I think I should clarify.

We live in a multi-tiered world. There's us, and we're not at the top of the tree as we have mortgages, and many people in Ireland are probably a housing crisis away from bankruptcy. There's a tier above us, maybe 2, of the people who'll never know what real financial strife is. And then there's the majority of the people on planet earth below.

Now its great to sit here and criticise what we find disgusting about the third world, and personally as a father I'd hate to think of my boy growing up and HAVING to fight for a living. But we all contribute to the world in which young boys like that live. In the choices we make day to day. What we purchase, where we purchase it. Where we choose to go on holiday etc.

So I think it's a bit rich (excuse the pun) to sit back and tut tut at a world we help to create.

Nothingcompares

Absolutely not. Even if everyone in the first world does (in)directly contribute to processes that keep the third world countries in the third world be can still always look back at all injustices and call them wrong. Even if it is hypocritical it's not wrong.

Khannie

Roper wrote: »

So I think it's a bit rich (excuse the pun) to sit back and tut tut at a world we help to create.

I think there has been almost no tut-tuting in this thread. I certainly didn't post the first post with a tut-tut tone in it (in case that's the implication). More one of sympathy.

I'm well aware that it'd be all too easy for me to say "omg, that's so terrible...how could a parent do that?" when I'm not faced with malnutrition as a very real prospect.

johnathan woss

mac123 wrote: »

Different culture to be honest, its not your place to criticise.

The people who keep the child-fighting industry going are almost certainly relatively wealthy by Thai standards.

The people who can afford to bet sums of money on children's bouts almost certainly are too.

So it's middle class Thais exploiting very poor Thai kids..... why am I "out of place" for criticising that ?

crokester

Nothingcompares wrote: »

?

That treatment of children is completely sickening (being forced to fight on and beaten up). Yes there are worse things in the world than that but it doesn't make it acceptable. Yes the people who profit at this form of child abuse are worse. The whole thing is disgusting regardless of cultural perspective.[/QUOTE}

Everything is viewed through a cultural framework, (especially that wich we view to be morally unacceptable). All your doing is using the one you were brought up with and taking it to be nuetral, ie "regardless of cultural perspective".

johnathan woss

crokester wrote: »

Everything is viewed through a cultural framework, (especially that wich we view to be morally unacceptable). All your doing is using the one you were brought up with and taking it to be nuetral, ie "regardless of cultural perspective".

Ok but surely we can attempt to look at something objectively and decide if it's wrong ?

Nothingcompares

crokester wrote: »

Everything is viewed through a cultural framework, (especially that wich we view to be morally unacceptable). All your doing is using the one you were brought up with and taking it to be nuetral, ie "regardless of cultural perspective".

That's a fair point, I think you have me there. I'd like to think my view points on justice are from a human point of view rather than a Western/Christian/Irish point of view but I can't really say.

Dave Joyce

Fair play Barry, gotta agree with everything you've said there. However, WHAT THE FUVK!!! I have not condoned OR accepted anything about the above incidents, I merely commented that its a bit rich for us to try to moralise about life in a third world country, particularly when it can actually improve life for more that the actual person involved.

Two further points for "some" people to consider, (1), I can guarantee you, these as Mill (Gerry) mentioned were not properly sanctioned bouts but more likely local events and its very hard to control people deciding to run shows without proper sanctioning etc hmm seem to recall things like that EVEN happening in this (first world) country.

(2) I have certainly seen (mind you not at a Muaythai event) in this country, many parents literally forcing kids in various states of distress to continue on at many different sports including Martial Arts.

RedRaven

Khannie..since the OP was about kids fighting regardless of what organization or sactioning body I think you should remove any post that is obviously off topic and political, Im sure there will be a time and a place to address organizational differences (someday) fingers crossed.

Khannie

Agreed. I've asked Colm to box it off.

Colm_OReilly

I'm gonna let this thread continue as apart from larusso's posts (which I'll delete along with joyce's direct responses) I think it's an acceptable discussion.

For my part:

We cannot judge things "objectively" - everything comes through a filter, regardless of how objective we are. Personally I try to see other people's PoV but there are limits to what I can conjure so it's all ultimately down to my interpretation.

As rich Westerners we profit by the abuse of others. It's upsetting, but if you've a pair of runners a child (possibly at gunpoint, overworked) has made them. This is a completely different argument but I'd be inclined to agree with Barry on his stance (as much as it pains me to agree with him!!!)

Some view boxing as barbaric - yet we've children boxing. Some view mma as barbaric, yet we have kids training in it. Kids get hurt in our training sessions and competitions (thankfully not seriously). Kids get hurt seriously playing soccer/rugby/gaa and have life long injuries and there have been deaths in these sports at junior level.

Sport is dangerous, it's part of its nature.

Colm
-That calm sage in the corner has spoken

Dave Joyce

Mr O'Reilly, my response was as a result of the highly insulting comments made directly to ME, whereas in other posts you have critized someone who has not previously posted and flamed a regular poster during a debate. Perhaps the reason for this unfair treatment in MY case lies in your own responce IE I WAS CHRISTENED NOT PISSED ON and don't appreciate people (particularly those who don't KNOW me) calling me by my surname. I haven't seen do it to others you don't know, so I don't either accept or expect YOU to do it to me.

Khannie

FFS. He deleted the posts so we could get back on track. If you really want to rant at Colm, send him a PM.

On kids in boxing: I think the difference there is that they generally want to do it. My little lad (10) can't wait to get his gloves on.

Nothingcompares

Every time Dave joyce posts on this forum he seems to be having a row with someone over something.

RedRaven

Ah dont mind Dave...He has a bit of Red in his hair...always a firery streak.:D

Khannie

REDRUM!!

Colm_OReilly

Okay, guess this thread is beyond reasonable debate.