Want to be a catholic, but some of the rules...

scallywag

Hello fellow boardsters. Basically I come from a very catholic family and up until about a year and a half ago I really rejected the faith altogether.

I went through some tough times and I still have a lot of issues within myself. I guess i'm one of those people that drives themselves crazy by getting bogged down just thinking all the time and never actually doing anything about their problems. Sometimes its hard to find the will aswell.
I started praying partially as a way to help sort out some of my issues and partly becuase I had a real sense that it would help me. I do now have that feeling now that if I really and truly call for help and deserve it, that I will be helped. I could swear that I have been looked after in trying situations before when when all looked lost, some curveball came out of nowhere to save me.

Anyway, that is how i've reached this point really.
An important part of my life is going out with friends and having a good time. This is how my current friends socialise, its how I meet up with old friends, and its basically ingrained(*sp) in me that this is how I am. I like going out drinking with my friends, and trying to chat up women etc. Now, according to the catholic religion I should never really get drunk or have sex outside marriage.

Is this something that I really have to compromise on to fully 'belong' to the church?

Maybe there is a straight answer to this and maybe its 'NO', 'thems the rules' but just wondering what the general opinion on this is.

I do feel strongly in God and believe more in Him everyday, I do try to lead a positive existence and also attend mass every week and would often call into a church if I was passing.
I am however, very much a product of my environment, my peers etc.

philologos

Unfortunately drunkeness is a sin in Scripture, in the Proverbs of Solomon and in the Epistles of Paul it is considered to be a desire of the flesh. You can however enjoy alcohol in moderation so that you will not be drunk, and that you will not do anything which will defile yourself. The Proverbs of Solomon also mention that alcohol is best drunk if you are in a bad mood, however also in moderation.

As for sex before marriage there is a lot of theological argument surrounding that one. I'm not quite sure myself. Hopefully some of the other members on the board will be able to help you out.

Hivemind187

Jakkass wrote: »

The Proverbs of Solomon also mention that alcohol is best drunk if you are in a bad mood, however also in moderation.

Hopefully this is intended to point out that not everything you read in the scripture is a good idea.

Alcohol is a depressant and can (and in some people most assuredly will) cause severe depression and violent outbursts if you are already in a "bad mood" to begin with.

Hivemind187

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Hopefully this is intended to point out that not everything you read in the scripture is a good idea.

Alcohol is a depressant and can (and in some people most assuredly will) cause severe depression and violent outbursts if you are already in a "bad mood" to begin with.

Very much seconded - alcohol is a depressant.

BrianCalgary

Back to the OP

Drunkenness in the Bible is a no no. This weekend give it a go. Don't get drunk, just drink juices or soft drinks while out with you rfriends and see how it goes. It worked for me all those many many years ago.

I was still able to socialize withmy friends and maintain control. A very dear friend told me it is what led him to Christ, because I was walking what I was preaching.

Sex is also frowned upon unless it is in the realm of marriage.

kelly1

Hello Scallywag,

thanks for sharing your story with us. I'm certain that God is calling you to holiness.

I'm a Catholic and I'm happy to obey the "rules" because it's God will. The moral teachings of the Church are like speed limit signs. Signs aren't there to spoil your enjoyment of driving, they're there to keep you alive.

Doing God's will can never be called restrictive. It's the only true freedom. It may seem like keeping to the rules spoils the fun but as Jesus said "What does if profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul". He also said the truth will set you free. When we sin, we are basically saying to God, our Creator, "I don't care what You want, I'll do whatever I want". Sooner or later this will lead to pain and darkness. Doing God's brings great peace to the soul , knowing that we are walking in the Light of Christ.

My advice to you is to pray and pray often. Whether we know it or knot we are fighting a spiritual battle against the devil, the world and the flesh and we must persevere in doing God's will with faith. Pray for the strength to do God's will and knowledge of what it is that God wants from you. No matter what happens to you in this life, trust if God's goodness and mercy. Like Job, trust in God even when bad things happen. God will never let us down if we put our trust in Him.

God bless and keep the faith!
Noel.

philologos

Hivemind187 wrote:

Alcohol is a depressant and can (and in some people most assuredly will) cause severe depression and violent outbursts if you are already in a "bad mood" to begin with.

I think that'd fall under drunkeness. A drink (singular) in the means of cheering you up cannot cause all that much harm, would you disagree?

scallywag

I understand what you are all saying, I guess the problem is that I don't see how I am sinning by doing these things, ie. getting drunk with friends, having sex with a woman I am dating.
I read a good quote once in the book 'the kite runner' that kind of rang true for me

"There is only one sin, only one. And that is theft. Every other sin is a variation of theft....When you kill a man, you steal a life. You steal his wife's right to a husband, rob his children of a father. When you tell a lie, you steal someone's right to the truth. When you cheat, you steal the right to fairness. "

This made sense to me, just like many of the christian teachings do in terms of charity, self reflection, peace, forgiving, sense of family, having christ as your deep inner strength.
I also have been told that religion is not like a buffet where you choose what you want from it, that it is either all or nothing.

If I don't compromise on these issues, as in if I see no reason to, should I just give up on being involved in the catholic church?

ps.
Its not like I am doing either of these things to an extreme rate or anything but they are parts of life that I do enjoy from time to time and see no reason to cease doing.

Joe Reilly

scallywag wrote: »

I understand what you are all saying, I guess the problem is that I don't see how I am sinning by doing these things, ie. getting drunk with friends, having sex with a woman I am dating.

When the issue of salvation comes up i.e. how to avoid hell and go heaven, we often justify oursleves by believing we are a good person.

Passage Proverbs 20:6 (KJV)

Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?

However, the question we need to ask ourselves is are we good enough? To find the answer, we must look at God's law.

Passage Romans 7:7 (KJV)

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So my point being that we need to know God's law. Once we know his law, we can identify that we have sinned. The Law is summed up in the Ten Commandments.

http://www.wayofthemaster.com

The above link will allow you to take a test based on these commandments and clarifies God's standard and the truth on eternal judgement.

God bless,

Joe

BrianCalgary

scallywag wrote: »

I understand what you are all saying, I guess the problem is that I don't see how I am sinning by doing these things, ie. getting drunk with friends, having sex with a woman I am dating.
I read a good quote once in the book 'the kite runner' that kind of rang true for me

"There is only one sin, only one. And that is theft. Every other sin is a variation of theft....When you kill a man, you steal a life. You steal his wife's right to a husband, rob his children of a father. When you tell a lie, you steal someone's right to the truth. When you cheat, you steal the right to fairness. "

This made sense to me, just like many of the christian teachings do in terms of charity, self reflection, peace, forgiving, sense of family, having christ as your deep inner strength.
I also have been told that religion is not like a buffet where you choose what you want from it, that it is either all or nothing.

If I don't compromise on these issues, as in if I see no reason to, should I just give up on being involved in the catholic church?

ps.
Its not like I am doing either of these things to an extreme rate or anything but they are parts of life that I do enjoy from time to time and see no reason to cease doing.

Sorry scallywag, but the quote you give is not from God but from a man. What you have done is taken away the greatest give you could give your wife to be, and that is yourself. You have stolen yourself from her. Hence a sin.

You have also stolen time in getting drunk. Time that could have been better spent elsewhere.

Whether or not your are doing these things in the extreme or not, you are still doing them and sinning against God.

If you love this woman enough to sleep with her, why not marry her?

Scally, why do you want to be a catholic when you disagree with so much of it? If you want to be a christian, then find a church that you feel agrees with your beliefs. Simple as that.

I am however, very much a product of my environment, my peers etc.

What's this even supposed to mean? You're used to doing something that the church forbids, so you want to be exempted from the rules?
It doesn't work that way. Noone said pursuing the faith was supposed to be easy, either.
Once again I have to say that either you understand/believe this is what the bible/your god tells you to do and you follow it, or you don't. It's not about rationalising it with nice quotes from random people.

kelly1

bluewolf wrote: »

Scally, why do you want to be a catholic when you disagree with so much of it? If you want to be a christian, then find a church that you feel agrees with your beliefs. Simple as that.

It's amazing how many people jump at the chance to turn people away from the Catholic Church. Scallywag's questions are about drinking/drunkeness and fornication which all Christian churches/denominations reject.

Scally do you have a particular issue with the CC or just general Christian teaching?

I find the level of anti-catholic sentiment on this board shocking!

God bless,
Noel.

Board-in-work

scallywag wrote: »

Hello fellow boardsters. Basically I come from a very catholic family and up until about a year and a half ago I really rejected the faith altogether.

I went through some tough times and I still have a lot of issues within myself. I guess i'm one of those people that drives themselves crazy by getting bogged down just thinking all the time and never actually doing anything about their problems. Sometimes its hard to find the will aswell.
I started praying partially as a way to help sort out some of my issues and partly becuase I had a real sense that it would help me. I do now have that feeling now that if I really and truly call for help and deserve it, that I will be helped. I could swear that I have been looked after in trying situations before when when all looked lost, some curveball came out of nowhere to save me.

Anyway, that is how i've reached this point really.
An important part of my life is going out with friends and having a good time. This is how my current friends socialise, its how I meet up with old friends, and its basically ingrained(*sp) in me that this is how I am. I like going out drinking with my friends, and trying to chat up women etc. Now, according to the catholic religion I should never really get drunk or have sex outside marriage.

Is this something that I really have to compromise on to fully 'belong' to the church?

Maybe there is a straight answer to this and maybe its 'NO', 'thems the rules' but just wondering what the general opinion on this is.

I do feel strongly in God and believe more in Him everyday, I do try to lead a positive existence and also attend mass every week and would often call into a church if I was passing.
I am however, very much a product of my environment, my peers etc.

Hi Scallwag, seems like you've turned a corner in your life, hope things are improving. If this means going out enjoying life with your friends - having a few beers and chasing women - no-one can judge you. Go out and enjoy life man!

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Hopefully this is intended to point out that not everything you read in the scripture is a good idea.

Alcohol is a depressant and can (and in some people most assuredly will) cause severe depression and violent outbursts if you are already in a "bad mood" to begin with.

Rubbish - alcohol is a mood enhancer. If you're allready depressed when you drink, or have a pre-disposition to depression then it will effect you in this way.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Sorry scallywag, but the quote you give is not from God but from a man. What you have done is taken away the greatest give you could give your wife to be, and that is yourself. You have stolen yourself from her. Hence a sin.

You have also stolen time in getting drunk. Time that could have been better spent elsewhere.

Whether or not your are doing these things in the extreme or not, you are still doing them and sinning against God.

If you love this woman enough to sleep with her, why not marry her?

Time better spent elsewhere? Rather than enjoying yourself, and the company of good friends - if getting drunk is the problem then cut back - don't stop enjoying yourself and socialising.

bluewolf wrote: »

Scally, why do you want to be a catholic when you disagree with so much of it? If you want to be a christian, then find a church that you feel agrees with your beliefs. Simple as that.


What's this even supposed to mean? You're used to doing something that the church forbids, so you want to be exempted from the rules?
It doesn't work that way. Noone said pursuing the faith was supposed to be easy, either.
Once again I have to say that either you understand/believe this is what the bible/your god tells you to do and you follow it, or you don't. It's not about rationalising it with nice quotes from random people.

I think if some of these responses haven't driven you from the Catholic church, I don't know what will.......You can believe in God without being a Catholic. Feel good and content in yourself, and you won't need any of the Catholic dogma.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

I find the level of anti-catholic invective on this board shocking!

God bless,
Noel.

Noel, there are some on this board anti christian and anti religion. I would consider myself a christian who has issues with catholicism. In fact I've expressd my issue on another thread. You refuse to address it, and are now choosing to just moan about 'anti-catholic' posters. Yourself and 2 of your catholic colleagues, Cantab and Michael G, have expressed their faith as 'higher' than other Christians. Phraes like 'valid sacraments' etc have been used to be-little other Christians. Now, if you want a Christian discussion, then discuss, knowing that there are those that have issue with Catholicism and their brand of christianity. I'm sure you are genuine in your Faith Noel, but so are the others, including those who have issue with Catholicism. I don't condemn you, or any catholic, but I have serious concerns about your faith, just like you have serious concerns about mine. So why not just put away the shield and enter the debate?

kelly1

kelly1 wrote: »

It's amazing how many people jump at the chance to turn people away from the Catholic Church. ...

I find the level of anti-catholic sentiment on this board shocking!

God bless,
Noel.

I find the level of excuses people will jump to to yell "anti-catholic" shocking.
Particularly given the 2nd paragraph I wrote to him.
Stop looking for persecution, because you're not finding it here.

Fanny Cradock

Hi scallywag,

Let me start of by saying that what you are experiencing - a conflict between your spiritual and worldly desires - is something felt by many, myself included. In the last months, I have begun to explore and question my faith in ways that I have never done before. In certain cases, I have found the answers received are in total opposition to how I have lived my life. The easy rebuttal always seems to be "live a good life and you'll be grand" or "it's only a little thing - God won't mind". You've touched on it yourself, scallywag, this really smacks of faith 'al a carteism' - having your cake and eating it. People seem to convince themselves of the validity of this viewpoint (probably myself included) despite the evidence found in the Bible.

You may find that there are large challenges looming in your future, scallywag. I would, however, encourage you to think outside the box, so to speak. Consider the possibility that you are approaching these unimaginably huge questions regarding your faith from the completely wrong direction. It's like buying the petrol before you buy the car. Why not explore Christianity (God) first rather than deciding on following a particular denomination (a construct of man that often fails to emulate God's desires). Despite the opinions of some Christians here, I would think it preposterous to think that God can be compartmentalised into one domination.

I will throw in a qualifier and say that if Catholicism helps you get closer to God then all the better, but faith it is worth exploring, IMO.

Board-in-work wrote: »

Rubbish - alcohol is a mood enhancer. If you're allready depressed when you drink, or have a pre-disposition to depression then it will effect you in this way.

Despite the fact that it is off topic, your ignorance on this matter undermines your post.

Board-in-work wrote: »

Time better spent elsewhere? Rather than enjoying yourself, and the company of good friends - if getting drunk is the problem then cut back - don't stop enjoying yourself and socialising.

You seem to suffer from selective reading. I don't believe that anyone here has said that socialising or drinking is forbidden for Christians. Moderation - and therein lies the challenge - would seem to be the advice here. That aside, do you really think enjoyment can only be gained from having a few beers and chasing women?

Board-in-work

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Hi scallywag,

Let me start of by saying that what you are experiencing - a conflict between your spiritual and worldly desires - is something felt by many, myself included. In the last months, I have begun to explore and question my faith in ways that I have never done before. In certain cases, I have found the answers received are in total opposition to how I have lived my life. The easy rebuttal always seems to be "live a good life and you'll be grand" or "it's only a little thing - God won't mind". You've touched on it yourself, scallywag, this really smacks of faith 'al a carteism' - having your cake and eating it. People seem to convince themselves of the validity of this viewpoint (probably myself included) despite the evidence found in the Bible.

You may find that there are large challenges looming in your future, scallywag. I would, however, encourage you to think outside the box, so to speak. Consider the possibility that you are approaching these unimaginably huge questions regarding your faith from the completely wrong direction. It's like buying the petrol before you buy the car. Why not explore Christianity (God) first rather than deciding on following a particular denomination (a construct of man that often fails to emulate God's desires). Despite the opinions of some Christians here, I would think it preposterous to think that God can be compartmentalised into one domination.

I will throw in a qualifier and say that if Catholicism helps you get closer to God then all the better, but faith it is worth exploring, IMO.



Despite the fact that it is off topic, your ignorance on this matter undermines your post.


You seem to suffer from selective reading. I don't believe that anyone here has said that socialising or drinking is forbidden for Christians. Moderation - and therein lies the challenge - would seem to be the advice here. That aside, do you really think enjoyment can only be gained from having a few beers and chasing women?

This topic is about drunkeness and sex before marriage as applied to the Catholic faith is it not? I think if you will read the other posts here, you will see that the subject of alcohol being a depressent was brought into the discussion (not by me) - so how can my post be 'off topic' - I think its is you who is showing ignorance here. Why would saying alcohol is a mood enhancer undermine my post?

If you read my post, you will find that I did not suggest that enjoyment can ONLY be gained from having a few beers and chasing women. Instead of trying to pick holes in my post, why don't you enter into the debate, by engaging with and helping Scallywag?

BrianCalgary

Board-in-work wrote: »

This topic is about drunkeness and sex before marriage as applied to the Catholic faith is it not? I think if you will read the other posts here, you will see that the subject of alcohol being a depressent was brought into the discussion (not by me) - so how can my post be 'off topic' - I think its is you who is showing ignorance here. Why would saying alcohol is a mood enhancer undermine my post?

If you read my post, you will find that I did not suggest that enjoyment can ONLY be gained from having a few beers and chasing women. Instead of trying to pick holes in my post, why don't you enter into the debate, by engaging with and helping Scallywag?

As moderator, you are off-topic. I deleted posts that spoke of alcohol as a depressant. Please keep it on topic. Or you too will be deleted.