New Apartment Floor Area much undersize

robt

I was wondering if someone could help me? PLEASE!

I am about to purchase a 2 bed apartment in Dublin. The brochure states that the apartmant area is 69 square meters, the small print reads that area is approximate.

I recently gained access to the apartment which is currently under construction. To my horror i realised that the floor area is actually around 63 square metres. It appears to me that no allowance was made for the internal insulated drylining when originally working out floor areas. Therefore the drylining has encroached on the floor area as originally stated. The floor areas i have calculated are accurate, I am an Architectural Technician who does this type of work all of the time.

The minimum size of a 2 bed apartment according to South Dublin coco development plan is 65 square metres.

I was wondering what i can do about the situation, or whether i should be given some sort of allowance?

I have paid my full deposit, and i need to get this apartment, but i just think it is grossly unfair to lose 6 square metres, and have an apartmant below the size in the development plan, considering the difficulty i have had to go through to actually buy it.

Any advice much appreciated, i am seriously worried.

Thank You.

dotsman

This is unfortunately quiet common from my (little) experience. All apartments I looked at buying off plans were several square metres less than originally described. When selling, they will of course always estimate in their favour and I think they always state in the small print about "not taking the internal walls into consideration" etc.

loyatemu

yeah I'm pretty sure builders just measure the entire area inside the external walls so it includes partition walls, kitchen worksurfaces, chimneys etc. It is not the same as useable floorspace.

Dub13

Moved from Consumer Issues

tHE vAGGABOND

I would talk to your solicitor about your options..

There is quite a difference between 63 sq m and 69 sq m!

Borzoi

loyatemu wrote: »

yeah I'm pretty sure builders just measure the entire area inside the external walls so it includes partition walls, kitchen worksurfaces, chimneys etc. It is not the same as useable floorspace.

Yep, standard practice I'm afraid

robt

Thank you all for your comments.

Just to re-itterate, I am an architectural technician, so i dont need advice on how the floor areas are measured. I do this for a living....It is measured to the face of the finished plasterboard wall. Internal walls are a loss to the floor area, i have taken this into account.

The advice i need is how to approach the situation with the builder / builders solicitor.

This apartment:
1) Does not comply with Planning Application drawings.
2) Does not comply with SDCC development plan.
3) Is 6 square metres short of the area in the brochure.

Developers are ripping off the hard working people of our country.

Thanks to all for replies. Keep it going.....
I'm sure we all have friends or family in similar situations.

I also have this thread running on www.askaboutmoney.com , the link is:
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=65865&highlight=robt

There are some interesting replies here.

Many thanks for all help:)

irlirishkev

Just something to note aswell.. square footage of apartments generally includes the balcony (if you have one), so that can make up a good bit of space potential buyers thought would be 'inside' the apartment..

Ste.phen

I thought there were guidelines about what can / can't be counted as floor area
(and i presumed balcony wouldn't quite count, it'd be more akin to a garden space)

robt

Folks, please only post if you know what you are talking about!!! Like i said, i work in the business, the area is not in question.

FYI, the balcony is not counted when calculating the floor area, this is private open space, extra over to the floor area.:mad:

I DONT NEED ADVICE ON HOW TO CALCULATE FLOOR AREAS!

Please, if anyone has any experience in getting some allowance, refund, dispensation, etc. because of undersized properties, please tell me what avenue you took to achieve this.

I am killing myself to try to pay €375k for a 69 square metre apartment that actually measures 63 square metres.... almost a 10% reduction. If taken into account monaretily speaking this would be €37,500. This is a hell of a lot of money.

It is happening all of the time. Most architects that survey ('snag') new properties dont calculate the actual floor area. They usually rely on a reputable estate agent to have all such details above board. I surveyed the area of this apartment because i was buying it. There are roughly 200 apartments in the development & i would hazard a guess that most are undersized. Mine grossly undersized.

I want this apartment & need it for reasons that i wont go into, I just dont think i should be ripped off so obviously, like so many people these days.

If anyone else thinks they may have a similar problem and require an accurate floor area calculation dont hesitate to PM me.

Regards,
Robert.

information

robt wrote: »

Folks, please only post if you know what you are talking about!!! Like i said, i work in the business, the area is not in question.

I'm sure you did a great job with your little ruler, but you obviously know nothing about buying property.
This is the way square foot is done, even worse in second hand houses the estate agents just measure the outside walls to calculate the sq foot

robt wrote: »

FYI, the balcony is not counted when calculating the floor area, this is private open space, extra over to the floor area.:mad:

Lots of brochures include the balcony is the sq foot size


As stated already by people who know, estate agents choose their own methods for calculating sq foot.
You should have done more research before you bought the property, you'll know next time

Smoggy

If you are in the business and know that appartment sizes are often way under the size that is built - why didn't you have something added to your contract ? You must have known this was likely to happen to you !!!!

Hagar

Smoggy wrote: »

why didn't you have something added to your contarct ?

Possible because builders won't allow it and if you don't like it they will sell to the next punter at a higher price.

Smoggy

So builders can screw you over with no legal come back for the purchaser !!!

Hagar

That's about the size of it really.

massplanck

Hagar wrote: »

Possible because builders won't allow it and if you don't like it they will sell to the next punter at a higher price.

Higher Price? Where have you been the last 12 months?

Smoggy

I presume the original poster bought off the plans over a year ago. I would have thought in the current climate builders will put anything in a contract to get a sale.

Hagar

massplanck wrote: »

Higher Price? Where have you been the last 12 months?

France. I can't see it being sold cheaper, there's always a person like the OP who must buy for whatever reason.

Patrickof

information wrote: »

I'm sure you did a great job with your little ruler, but you obviously know nothing about buying property.
This is the way square foot is done, even worse in second hand houses the estate agents just measure the outside walls to calculate the sq foot


Lots of brochures include the balcony is the sq foot size

As stated already by people who know, estate agents choose their own methods for calculating sq foot.
You should have done more research before you bought the property, you'll know next time

Well maybe those "people who know" should check again. Estate agents (at least the reputable ones) follow the SCS measuring guidelines. I measure to the inner walls using a laser tape (a professional one not a 29.99 black and decker yoke). And the rules vary for the type of property to be measured.

robt

Your sarcastic quote has no grounds. You obviously dont have a clue, floor areas are calculated based on the no they are not - they should be measured on NSA (Net Sales Area) which is the total internal floor area including walls, circulation space etc.

This is measured to the plasterboard face.

I have designed hundreds of apartmants and houses i dont need you tell me how to suck eggs.

If you dont have a productive comment please dont bother.

Thank you to all who have posted helpful comments, but i feel to many are now being distracted by seperated arguments & forgetting the original problem.

Hagar

Google "Loi Carre" is the French law which governs exactly how a property is measured. It would be an eye open for the consumers in Ireland and an awful kick in the mebs for the builders. Over here if you overstate the area of a property by even 1sq cm the buyer has 12 months to discover it and demand a full refund and can pursue for expenses incurred. This leads to builders rounding down property sizes by 1sqm to be on the safe side.

information

robt wrote: »

Your sarcastic quote has no grounds. You obviously dont have a clue, floor areas are calculated based on the no they are not - they should be measured on NSA (Net Sales Area) which is the total internal floor area including walls, circulation space etc.

This is measured to the plasterboard face.

I have designed hundreds of apartmants and houses i dont need you tell me how to suck eggs.

If you dont have a productive comment please dont bother.

Thank you to all who have posted helpful comments, but i feel to many are now being distracted by seperated arguments & forgetting the original problem.

I'll define the problem

Appartment size

1: Brochure states that 69sm approx. in estate agents world

2: You think its the NSA 63sm in your world

The 2 worlds collide in the purchase contract, what does it say ?, you should have insured that it was using the NSA measurement.

If you did not, the problem is yours because you didn't do enough research and realise that measurement was not the NSA.


You shouldn't be so quick to go around telling people they don't have a clue, when you are the one who bought an appartment, that is 10% smaller than you expected.

massplanck

Hagar wrote: »

France. I can't see it being sold cheaper, there's always a person like the OP who must buy for whatever reason.

Well I'm in Ireland, where developers are dropping prices, throwing in free appliances, furnishings & cars in a desparate effort to entice buyers.

Hagar

Fair enough, I didn't realise the bite was getting as bad as that.

massplanck

Hagar wrote: »

Google "Loi Carre" is the French law which governs exactly how a property is measured. It would be an eye open for the consumers in Ireland and an awful kick in the mebs for the builders. Over here if you overstate the area of a property by even 1sq cm the buyer has 12 months to discover it and demand a full refund and can pursue for expenses incurred. This leads to builders rounding down property sizes by 1sqm to be on the safe side.

wow.

Builders take the complete piss in this country. Why cant we have something similar here? Methinks it has something to do with the FF tent at the Galway races.

Jo King

If the property is not as described in the planning application then there are some options. A friend of mine secured a reduction in price when he notice that some of his second bedroom was actuall part of the lift shaft. The contract will in all likelihood warrant that all planning is in order. If the planning is not in order, then demand that it be put right or the price abated, BEFORE closing the purchase.

Borzoi

robt wrote: »

Your sarcastic quote has no grounds. You obviously dont have a clue, floor areas are calculated based on the no they are not - they should be measured on NSA (Net Sales Area) which is the total internal floor area including walls, circulation space etc.

This is measured to the plasterboard face.

I have designed hundreds of apartmants and houses i dont need you tell me how to suck eggs.

If you dont have a productive comment please dont bother.

Thank you to all who have posted helpful comments, but i feel to many are now being distracted by seperated arguments & forgetting the original problem.

Seeing as you are employing a solicitor why don't make use of there professional services , and just ask them

robt

If you have read the problem correctly you will se that i have identified that the apartment is non-compliant with The Development plan of the area. This is where i will have grounds to seek some sort of allowance.

I am not trying to start an argument, i just need sound advice. FYI i didnt scale the drawing with a 'ruler'. I managed to obtain the actual Cad drawings, and surveyed the property with a laser measure.

Unfortunately this post has lost its direction so i dont see any further need to reply.

davej

You might get some help here

davej

Victor

OK guys, chill out.

the_syco

robt wrote: »

I have designed hundreds of apartmants and houses i dont need you tell me how to suck eggs.

Apparently you do.

So far, you have not stated if, in the contract, it's measured using the the NSA measurement, or not.

=-=

So far you have told us that you know everything, as you've designed loads, but it would seem you took the standards of what you did as granted. There are lots of cowboys in this country, and it'd seem that you may have come across an apartment that was designed by one. Get your legal dude to look through the contract to see if you have a leg to stand on, and if you do, use it. In the current climate, I'd say a few people wouldn't want bad press about apartments that they're trying to sell, so try to see if you can get your money, or failing that, another apartment in another block, that has your full floor size.

=-=

/edit: Victor, just saw your post after I posted the above.

Supercell

Personally , in a falling market and if I'd bought off the plan , i'd back out. Surely you have grounds to render the contract null and void as you havent got what you paid for? (that said Bertie and his Builder's Party buddies probably have the law on their side ..this is Ireland after all)

Its not like there is a shortage of properties in Ireland for sale at the moment after all.

I suspect you are going to just decide what you want from this and ask your solicitor if you are entitled to this in the law, anything anyone says here really not something I'd consider rock solid evidence one way or the other. People on bulletin boards will argue the time of day..just the way it is.

Kipperhell

They spoke about this on the radio before and it seems pretty straight forward.

1. Planning application on the scale of size will not be detailed enough to state accurately internal dimensions prior to construction.
2. SDCC development plan is a guide only and not legal requirements to build a certain size
3.The brochure has absolutely no legal standing with regard to property

Effectively property is governed by a whole other set of buying laws different to regular consumer law. You legal representative is meant to investigate and state everything clearly to you before the purchase. If he hasn't explained the square footage issue to you get another one as this guy is leading you down a path that will cost you money

All the mention of because of the current market the buyer has magical powers of negotiation is just silliness. When a music shop has a sale to clear stock they don't reduce all the chart albums too. The property market has always worked as it does now and it remains buyer beware.

robt

robt wrote: »

I have paid my full deposit, and i need to get this apartment, but i just think it is grossly unfair to lose 6 square metres, and have an apartmant below the size in the development plan, considering the difficulty i have had to go through to actually buy it.

Any advice much appreciated, i am seriously worried.

Thank You.

Hey there. As you may know there is a bit of a lull period in the market now. There have been many other cases of people treatening to back out of properties bought off plans with some good results. See if you can get an accurate valutation of the property from a third party. Anecdotaly some firends in the business tell me apartments are barely moving these days.
If the valuation returns lower than you bought it for that is another stick to beat the developers with.
You may find unfortunaly in the current climate if there are more phases to be sold that there is a good possibility they will go for cheaper money. Good luck!