Philosophy - TR005

Timans

Looking to do this course next year, it's the pure Philosophy course as opposed to the Artsy one TR001.

Anyone doing it? Any recommendations? What is it like, highly regarded? Lectureres good or are there other colleges with a Philosophy course which would be more suitable?

Thanks,

Appreciated.

Spectator#1

I don't know about more suitable, it depends what you want really, but I just completed four years in UCD--three undergrad Eng and Phil and a year MA in Phil--and I would definitely recommend their department.

Time Magazine

Timans wrote: »

Looking to do ... the pure Philosophy course as opposed to the Artsy one

Lol.

Philosophy? On its own? Why, if you don't mind me asking?

Timans

I'm interested in it, I think that I would enjoy doing it on it's own and it would be more rewarding to have a degree in a subject that I enjoy and like as opposed to a joint degree.

No?

Time Magazine

That's fair enough, then.

But just a friendly word of advice: you're probably 17 or 18. If you're anything like me, or a lot of people I know, what you think <subject> is and what it is/how it is taught in university may be vastly different things.

Just to give you an example, in 5th year I wanted to do Computer Applications in DCU. Then I decided on Economics in Trinity (via BESS). I hated first year economics. Then I hated second year business. Now I'm back in economics and loving it. I'm not saying single-honour philosophy is not for you, just keep an open mind about dabbling with something else, too.

Also, four years ago I was both apathetic and deluded about the availability of jobs after my degree. Now it's really pushing itself to the forefront of my mind, although prospects are bright once I do well. You will almost certainly care more about money and employment more than you do now. Similarly, a degree in Philosophy will almost certainly not get you a job you couldn't do previously.

Other than that, I know nothing about Philosophy, so best of luck.

I disagree with Ibid there - if Philosophy is for you, then from what I hear the course in TCD is good.

Also - Philosophy is great analytical training which is a highly valued commodity in many job markets.

Timans

I agree, to some extent, Ibid, I am open to doing the other TR001 course. Maybe with Economics or Psychology or Spanish.

I do agree that maybe it would be better to do such a thing as it would broaden my education and give me better options, but, the way I see things, I can't guarentee myself a job after college with regard to any course. What I can control, is that I pick a course I think I will enjoy, I can't really do any more than that.

Yes, I will care about getting a job etc when I am older, but, money isn't everything and also, If I go for a job against something with no degree, then I'm sure I'd have a very good chance of getting said job.

And Zaraba, I appreciate the post, that is my way of thinking as well.

Time Magazine

Ah jaysis read my post, Iain. "I'm not saying single-honour philosophy is not for you, just keep an open mind about dabbling with something else, too."

Based on looking at the numbers, I disagree with you about the value of "great analytical thinking" from studying Philosophy.

What numbers?

Philosophy gives a very good training for analytical and logical thinking.
I know quite a few people working in the City with philosophy degrees.

I'm not arguing here - just my two pence work.

Time Magazine

Numbers ranging from 0-100. Have a look at the numbers for what people are doing one year on from their degree on Open Day. A very large slice of cake goes to "Taking a year out" (which is fine, but often a result of being a bit stuck for things to do) and "Further study".

I know two people with Philosophy degrees who work in the city, too. One of them is a receptionist in the Dental Hospital and the other researches for television programs.

Nothing wrong with further study! I plan on that myself!

On most of the interviews (for banking in London)I did - Economics, Engineering and Philosophy were the courses that people did.

Timans

Just wondering,

If I was to do the two-subject moderatorship in Philosophy and Psychology, would I have the same qualifications as a person doing Psychology? And the same goes for any two-subject moderatorship.

Just wondering, as the points are 70 points lower and surely they can't be the same?

You major and minor I think..

Timans

Oh right,

But, if someone was to Major in Psychology and Minor in another, would they finish with the same qualification as someone who did the 545 course in Psychology?

Just that Psychology is a 2nd option I am thinking of and what to know what you would finish college with.

I think this is the case:

Year 1 - Equal weight
Year 2 - Equal weight
Year 3 - You take exams only in your minor subject, this is 25% of your degree
Year 4 - You only study, and are examined in your major subject

Time Magazine

Absolutely nothing wrong with further study, zaraba. However the increased percentage of e.g. Arts graduates who go onto further study rather then e.g. Engineering graduates is indicative of the lack of employment options with a degree in English and Sociology, etc. Of course a strong II.1 in Economics will get you a decent job, and a strong II.1 in Philosophy will show you're smart and get you a job, but that doesn't present the whole truth to prospective students.

Timans wrote: »

Just wondering,

If I was to do the two-subject moderatorship in Philosophy and Psychology, would I have the same qualifications as a person doing Psychology? And the same goes for any two-subject moderatorship.

As zaraba says, generally speaking in 3rd or 4th year you pick a subject and do it as the primary element of your degree. You still get a degree in the two of them. You won't have done as many Psychology courses, but will still get the degree.

It's much the same with me, doing single-honour economics, and somebody doing a degree in economics and political science. They're both Bachelor of Arts degrees.

Oh and a degree (on its own) in Psychology is fairly useless too, almost everyone needs to specialise to get a psychology-related job afterwards. But then the rewards can be very... rewarding.

Just wondering, as the points are 70 points lower and surely they can't be the same?

Stop using points as a measure of quality of course. It's a measure of demand for a course (which of course includes people's opinions of a course's quality, but intermingled with prestige, location etc.) and supply. If they let twenty people into course A instead of ten, the points would fall substantially. The quality of the course doesn't change all that much, though.

Timans

I know that a Psychology degree is useless, a masters is usually necessary.

And, I wasn't using points as a measure of quality, I was just wondering, people might feel it unjust if the course was the exact same with such a wide gap in points, but then again, I'd probably be in lectures with people doing Pure Psychology.

I will more than likely, go onto to do a masters in my particular field and say I did a Phil / Psych two subject degree, I'd be able to get into a masters in either subject or only my major?

Daithio

I did single honours philosophy in Trinity, graduating in 2006. I'm currently doing an MA in Economics in Sydney and I'm so much more impressed by how this course is run. I didn't think that the philosophy department in Trinity was well organised at all, and I found in my last couple of years there that the atmosphere in the department wasn't very good. I think this might be the same for any degree course in Ireland at the moment though as they're just not getting enough money to run good degree programs. In my last year there I had 3 lectures a week for the first two terms and no lectures in the last term. I really don't feel like I learnt a huge amount. The main plus for me I suppose was that I was lazy and I ended up getting a relatively easy 2,1, which got me into a very good masters course. However I found that after two years I was quite sick of the course and it all began to feel a bit stale.

As regards single honours vs the TSM option, I found that the courses we did in single honours tended to be much more interesting and rewarding than the ones which we were all bunched together for. This only applies in first and second year though, in third and fourth year you simply choose twice as many subjects as the TSM students from the same bunch of subjects.

Are you good at writing essays? This is extremely important, and if you find that you're more of a crammer/ are bad at continual assessment than philosophy is not for you. On the plus side the exams are extremely easy.

I disagree with Ibid's arguments for not doing it though. If you really are sure you know what philosophy is "about", and figure you can stomach it for four full years, then it's not a bad undergrad to have at all. It definitely does teach you to think analytically, and nowadays alot of employers would consider a philosophy degree to be a very good thing. You will of course have to do a postgraduate course somewhere in a more specialised field if you want to earn some real money, but this is pretty much the same for any bachelor's degree nowadays.

I'm guessing you're just starting 6th year now? You've got a fair amount of time before you have to make any decisions. If I were you I'd really really make sure you know what the subject is about before committing yourself to four years of it. I didn't really know a huge amount about it, and towards the end of my four years I found it pretty tedious studying something I had no interest in. Contact the department and see if you can attend some lectures during time you have off school. I think you'll get a much better idea of what you're in for if you do that. And don't just choose the nice subjects like political philosophy etc, go to the really nasty analytical philosophy ones too and see what you think.

All that said, I met some really great people in my time in philosophy, and there were periods when I found it interesting. Also most of my friends from philosophy, especially single honours, say that they really liked it and are glad that they did it.

Good luck

PS, I don't know anything about the pure psychology course vs the TSM one, but points don't mean anything as regards how difficult a course is/ what it will qualify you for. They're just reflective of supply and demand for the course and nothing else. If suddenly everybody in the country put down Theology as their first choice, you'd need 600 points to get in.

claire h

Re: psychology - you have to major in psychology (keep it up in 4th year and take your final exams in philosophy in 3rd year) in order for it to 'count' as the same as single honors psychology for the purposes of the Psychological Society of Ireland or other bodies like that. (And certainly for a masters. But philosophy and other similar subjects aren't regulated by professional bodies, so you'd be eligible for further study even if you'd minored in them.)

Also re: the points thing - if you're doing TSM, the points you need are the higher of the two subjects, so a Psychology/Philosophy combination would be around 550/560ish rather than 480ish (last year's points for TSM courses - http://www2.cao.ie/points/lvl8_TR001_07_rnd2.pdf). Not such a huge gap after all, unfortunately...

Spectator#1

Ibid wrote: »

Absolutely nothing wrong with further study, zaraba. However the increased percentage of e.g. Arts graduates who go onto further study rather then e.g. Engineering graduates is indicative of the lack of employment options with a degree in English and Sociology, etc.

It could (and quite commonly does) also indicate that people who study Philosophy are academically minded people who pursue further study because they want to pursue further study, rather than because they want to be more suitable for a job--unless that job falls within the realm of academia. I finished a degree in Philosophy and English and went on to do a Masters in Philosophy. I'm no more employable now than I was then.

A world of possibilities is now open to me in terms of careers thanks to the skills I picked up as a result of my studying; and the best bit is that it's a complete plus, because I value what I got from my studies for other reasons altogether.

In fairness Ibid, anyone who's thinking about doing Philosophy in college clearly recognises from the outset that they're not going to be tailor-made for a particular industry, while I'd agree that it's important to remind people that they should be absolutely sure that it's what they want to do, and that they really don't mind that fact.

Time Magazine

Spectator#1 wrote: »

.

First off, when did you get unbanned?

It could (and quite commonly does) also indicate that people who study Philosophy are academically minded people who pursue further study because they want to pursue further study, rather than because they want to be more suitable for a job

I agree this accounts for some of the variation. Certainly you don't think it counts for all?

I finished a degree in Philosophy and English and went on to do a Masters in Philosophy. I'm no more employable now than I was then.

You've raised another important point; specialisation in Philosophy doesn't make you much more employable, regardless of additional analytical skills you gather. People can do as Daithio did to become employable: postgrad in something employable.

A world of possibilities is now open to me in terms of careers thanks to the skills I picked up as a result of my studying; and the best bit is that it's a complete plus, because I value what I got from my studies for other reasons altogether.

Good for you. "A world of possibilities" means you have extra options, great. However had you worked for the four years (five if the OP does their undergrad in TCD), there would be a world of possibilities open, too. There are few things the OP could do for five years that would not open opportunities to him.

In fairness Ibid, anyone who's thinking about doing Philosophy in college clearly recognises from the outset that they're not going to be tailor-made for a particular industry

Bullshit, frankly. I thought about doing Philosophy. In fact it was down on my CAO at one point. My girlfriend thought about doing Philosophy. My brother thought about doing Philosophy. I thought about doing Sociology. My girlfriend thought about doing Sociology. I ended up doing Economics. My girlfriend studies Geography. My brother is a strange Computer Scientist/Theologian hybrid.

There's no "clearly" whatsoever about people's employability if they consider doing Philosophy.

Spectator#1

Ibid wrote: »

First off, when did you get unbanned?

I don't remember being banned!

I agree this accounts for some of the variation. Certainly you don't think it counts for all?

No, of course not. It's just that you didn't recognise that in the post I responded to; and since I don't know (and presumably you don't either) what proportion it might or might not actually account for, I thought it would be important to point it out.

You've raised another important point; specialisation in Philosophy doesn't make you much more employable, regardless of additional analytical skills you gather. People can do as Daithio did to become employable: postgrad in something employable.

If you want to lecture in Philosophy, or go into research in the field you specialise in, then it does make you more employable. I'm quite sure that a high proportion of the people who specialise in Philosophy (at a postgraduate level anyway) do so for those reasons.

In my case, I did it because I'm interested in it and lucky enough to have parents who were willing to support me for another year in college.

Anyway, surely everyone knows that specialising in Philosophy won't make them strictly more employable [apart from the fact that I (will) now have a postgraduate degree as well, of course]? Why would I need to point that out, is it not fairly obvious?

Good for you. "A world of possibilities" means you have extra options, great. However had you worked for the four years (five if the OP does their undergrad in TCD), there would be a world of possibilities open, too. There are few things the OP could do for five years that would not open opportunities to him.

Very good. However, I didn't want to work for the four years, I wanted to study Philosophy. You're missing the point I was making.

In studying the subject I wanted to study--for reasons other than streamlining myself for a job--I still managed to open up a lot of avenues in terms of careers. This (as I already said) is actually a plus, on top of the fact that I got to study the subject I wanted to study and that I got a lot out of it in terms of perspective and horizons.

I was making the point there that if the OP is genuinely interested in Philosophy and they understand what they're letting themselves in for, they won't actually be disappointed at all by the lack of specific job qualifications they'll find themselves with at the end of the day.

Yes, it is good for me. Thank you.

Bullshit, frankly. I thought about doing Philosophy. In fact it was down on my CAO at one point. My girlfriend thought about doing Philosophy. My brother thought about doing Philosophy. I thought about doing Sociology. My girlfriend thought about doing Sociology. I ended up doing Economics. My girlfriend studies Geography. My brother is a strange Computer Scientist/Theologian hybrid.

I can only speak from my own experience Ibid. I'm presuming that the OP is serious in thinking about doing Philosophy and that, like me, they will actually go and do it. If they are doing it because they genuinely want to do it, and understand what they're letting themselves in for, then they will realise that it's not the ideal job to walk into a managerial position or an engineeering firm at the end of three or four years and that the value of studying something like Philosophy isn't strictly a utilitarian one at all.

Sorry, it seemed clear to me. Still does actually.

JC 2K3

Timans wrote: »

I'm interested in it, I think that I would enjoy doing it on it's own and it would be more rewarding to have a degree in a subject that I enjoy and like as opposed to a joint degree.

Why?