Am I insured to drive up the North?

jenizzle

Hi,

I'm a provisional licence holder, and I'm looking to drive to Belfast tomorrow but I'm not sure if I'm insured to drive there. I s'pose the best bet is to contact my insurance company, but was just wondering if anybody knew this offhand?

thanks

Alun

Nothing to do with insurance at all. You're not allowed to drive up there full stop, whether you're accompanied by a fully qualified driver or not. An Irish provisional licence is only valid in Ireland.

jenizzle

Alun wrote: »

Nothing to do with insurance at all. You're not allowed to drive up there full stop, whether you're accompanied by a fully qualified driver or not. An Irish provisional licence is only valid in Ireland.

s'pose that answers that then, thanks just that I can't find any official documents saying this, or specifying republic of Ireland

John R

jenizzle wrote: »

s'pose that answers that then, thanks just that I can't find any official documents saying this, or specifying republic of Ireland

A provisional licence is a learner's permit. It is supposed to only be used for drivers who are learning to drive, in every other European country that is exactly what happens and the thought of a learner permit being valid to tour a foreign country would never come up. That is also the attitude the authorities in other countries would have when faced with an Irish driver with only a learner's permit.

A Dub in Glasgo

Alun wrote: »

Nothing to do with insurance at all. You're not allowed to drive up there full stop, whether you're accompanied by a fully qualified driver or not. An Irish provisional licence is only valid in Ireland.

You are quite correct that a provisional licence is only valid in the jurisdiction that issued it.

Of course, you meant Republic of Ireland?

I.S.T.

John R wrote: »

A provisional licence is a learner's permit. It is supposed to only be used for drivers who are learning to drive, in every other European country that is exactly what happens and the thought of a learner permit being valid to tour a foreign country would never come up. That is also the attitude the authorities in other countries would have when faced with an Irish driver with only a learner's permit.

That was not the attitude back in the day when I hired a rental car in Canaries with my Provisional.

Hagar

Alun wrote: »

Nothing to do with insurance at all. You're not allowed to drive up there full stop, whether you're accompanied by a fully qualified driver or not. An Irish provisional licence is only valid in Ireland.

It does impact insurance in that if you drive in the North you don't have a valid licence and having a valid licence is a basic requirement for motor insurance. So don't take the chance, no licence means no insurance.

Stark

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

That was not the attitude back in the day when I hired a rental car in Canaries with my Provisional.

Not sure what the story is with the Canaries these days, but the PSNI up North definitely take a dim view of ROI learners driving in the North. Brought my car up there before when I was a learner. I put a friend of mine who had a full license on my insurance and let her drive it once we crossed the border, but neglected to take down the L-plates. The PSNI pulled us when we were up there and gave her a big lecture even though she was able to show them her license. They were very clear on the point of ROI learners not being insured to drive up north.

seamus

jenizzle wrote: »

s'pose that answers that then, thanks just that I can't find any official documents saying this, or specifying republic of Ireland

As far as I know, it says this on the licence itself. I may be wrong though.

John R

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

That was not the attitude back in the day when I hired a rental car in Canaries with my Provisional.

With the rental company or the police? Either way it was probably because they didn't realise that "provisional licence" meant learner permit, not a mistake the PSNI or a NI Judge are likely to make.

jenizzle

John R wrote: »

A provisional licence is a learner's permit. It is supposed to only be used for drivers who are learning to drive, in every other European country that is exactly what happens and the thought of a learner permit being valid to tour a foreign country would never come up. That is also the attitude the authorities in other countries would have when faced with an Irish driver with only a learner's permit.

I never see Northern Ireland as a 'foreign' country... of course I wouldn't expect the same in England, Scotland or Wales, but just wondered about the North.

Guess I have my answer now, thanks

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You are quite correct that a provisional licence is only valid in the jurisdiction that issued it.

Of course, you meant Republic of Ireland?

Alun was correct. The official name of this country is Eire or Ireland. The United Kingdom however allows the use of Eire or Republic of Ireland or Irish Republic so as to ensure no confusion with Northern Ireland (see Ireland Act, 1949). Seeing as you are located in said United Kingdom however, you are also correct!

However, the licence states "This is a licence issued for the purpose of learning to drive. It is not valid outside Ireland". It does not say Republic of Ireland.

Northern Ireland (as part of the United Kingdom) is not a foreign country in any case, just as the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country to the United Kingdom. That's why we can vote in Westminster elections when we live their and british subjects can vote in Dail elections when they live here.

Vorsprung

seamus wrote: »

As far as I know, it says this on the licence itself. I may be wrong though.

Says it on the front cover AFAIK!!

weehamster

jenizzle wrote: »

Hi,

I'm a provisional licence holder, and I'm looking to drive to Belfast tomorrow but I'm not sure if I'm insured to drive there. I s'pose the best bet is to contact my insurance company, but was just wondering if anybody knew this offhand?

thanks

I use to underwrite Motor Insurance and the advice I'll give you is that since this is solely a legal matter, the ONLY advice you should listen to is your Insurance Company or Broker.

This advice isn't just aimed at you only but everybody on this board. I have seen many a time people presuming what they can or can't do under their policy only to end up worse off. Don't be lazy. All it takes is a simple phone call.

maratonass

murphaph wrote: »

However, the licence states "This is a licence issued for the purpose of learning to drive. It is not valid outside Ireland". It does not say Republic of Ireland.

I think you'll find that any document, such as a driving license, issued by the state, the word 'Ireland' means the current state, as internationally recognised, not the geographical entity.

Whether or not a provisional license issued in the Republic is valid in Northern Ireland, is at present, a matter in the discretion of the Northern Irish authorities.

Curiously, when it comes to fines for traffic offences in Britain, Northern Irish licences are treated as 'foreign'.

cazzy

no its not valid in NI so you wouldnt be insured either.
Also I found out that a person with a provisional licence is also not insured on a motorway (we know that you are not allowed on a motorway but when i was a learner i called my insurance company and they told me i have zero cover on a motorway including the breakdown cover if i did accidently end up on one !)
It doesnt say it on the licence about only being valid in ROI - i drove to derry when i was a learner as i actually though i could but i did have a uk provisional as well so i wasnt too bothered (they are vaid for ten years)

tallaghtoutlaws

You get caught up north on a provisional the car could be taken off you. collected a friend of mine from Belfast once he was driving and speeding on a provisional licence. As he was on a provisional he was given a ticket for Driving without a licence and went to court in Belfast. He got a fine and told dont do it again oh and his dad had to collect his car from the pound.

Forget about what the insurance company tell you whether you are insured or not as in you could have a full licenced driver beside you and your policy covers you up north BUT it is illegal for a prov licence to drive up north full stop.

And before you say but my friend was probably caught speeding etc etc I just a cop shop at random just now in Lurgan and they confirmed it for me. If unsure about NI law ring a cop shop.

cazzy

Yeah learners in NI are speed restricted (think its max 45mph or something like that) They are also restricted for a year after qualifing (That s the cars with the R plates)

I didnt know that when i went to derry and i had my L plates and all up and was no doubt doing more than 45mph !

murphaph

maratonass wrote: »

I think you'll find that any document, such as a driving license, issued by the state, the word 'Ireland' means the current state, as internationally recognised, not the geographical entity.

That's what I said

maratonass wrote: »

Whether or not a provisional license issued in the Republic is valid in Northern Ireland, is at present, a matter in the discretion of the Northern Irish authorities.

No discretion allowed I'm afraid. A provisional from down here is meaningless up there. It's not a matter of discretion. It's simply driving without a licence.

weehamster

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Forget about what the insurance company tell you whether you are insured or not as in you could have a full licenced driver beside you and your policy covers you up north BUT it is illegal for a prov licence to drive up north full stop.

Ehh...If you're not insured to drive outside the ROI, it is irrelevant what licence you have. :rolleyes: Don't you presume to know what he is or isn't covered on his policy just because you can on yours or others you know of.

Wishbone Ash

weehamster wrote: »

Ehh...If you're not insured to drive outside the ROI, it is irrelevant what licence you have

Ehh...the authorities in Northern Ireland do not recogise a provisional licence from the ROI. The matter of insurance is irrelevant!

Richard

cazzy wrote: »

Yeah learners in NI are speed restricted (think its max 45mph or something like that) They are also restricted for a year after qualifing (That s the cars with the R plates)

And also, quite rightly, can't drive unaccompanied.

Richard

maratonass wrote: »

Curiously, when it comes to fines for traffic offences in Britain, Northern Irish licences are treated as 'foreign'.

This changed about a year or so ago, where NI, GB and Isle of Man licences can get points from each other. The same is happening with ROI licences in each of those places, if it hasn't already.

Capt'n Midnight

Richard wrote: »

And also, quite rightly, can't drive unaccompanied.

And the acompaning person has to have at least 3 years full license.

and as posted before they will pull you if you have L plates up on a motorway

the key thing to remember is that compared to the Gardaí the PSNI are more into road traffic enforcement.

corktina

Ireland means the Republic thereof...we only keep using the "republic" bit really to distinguish the State from NI....We dont say "the republic of France" for instance do we....

Wishbone Ash

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And the acompaning person has to have at least 3 years full license

....and be over 21 years of age.

d_man07

I've been driving on my provisional for 2 years, I live on the border and drive up the north at least once a week and have never been caught. As long as you dont attract attention onto yourself by having L plates up or driving like an idiot you have pratically zero chance of been caught!
And for the record, I've hired cars several times from different hire companies in California with my provisional liscence...
I think the reason the car hire companys dont seem to worried is because in the States the insuarance follows the vehicle and not the person, so there covered either way.

Creamy Goodness

d_man07 wrote: »

I've been driving on my provisional for 2 years, I live on the border and drive up the north at least once a week and have never been caught. As long as you dont attract attention onto yourself by having L plates up or driving like an idiot you have pratically zero chance of been caught!
And for the record, I've hired cars several times from different hire companies in California with my provisional liscence...
I think the reason the car hire companys dont seem to worried is because in the States the insuarance follows the vehicle and not the person, so there covered either way.

driving on a provisional without L plates isn't driving like an idiot?

please explain?

Hagar

d_man07 wrote: »

I've been driving on my provisional for 2 years, I live on the border and drive up the north at least once a week and have never been caught. As long as you dont attract attention onto yourself by having L plates up or driving like an idiot you have pratically zero chance of been caught!

Nothing like sound advice from a long standing poster who is a qualified driver.

Oh wait, you're a one post troll, my mistake carry on.

Creamy Goodness

careful don't stick it to 'd man'.

L1011

murphaph wrote: »

No discretion allowed I'm afraid. A provisional from down here is meaningless up there. It's not a matter of discretion. It's simply driving without a licence.

If you're stopped for a routine checkpoint rather than a driving offence, and you're on a road that leads to the Republic - as I was at a tax disc check outside Ballygawley once when a learner - they will generally give you a warning and tell you not to come back...

But you're still driving without a licence, so they're allowed go to the full extent of impounding the car until collected by a validly licenced (NI or ROI) driver, fining you, etc. They just apply a little common sense, at times.

And if you're stopped for an actual traffic offence (and remember - they've got some different rules up there, such as merge-in-turn when lanes combine, and so on); you're definitively screwed.

testicle

You are insured, but you're not licensed. The PSNI will do you for driving without a license.

murphaph

testicle wrote: »

You are insured, but you're not licensed. The PSNI will do you for driving without a license.

I'd imagine that these things which 'slipped through the cracks' during more intense policing times will be enforced much more by the PSNI going forward. I doubt you'd get a fraction of the number of NI drivers attempting to do the reverse.

AlekSmart

:eek: This thread really should be required reading down in the Garda College,Templemore as somewhat unwittingly it has wandered off into a confirmatory account of what many have suspected for a long while now.

Essentially the Garda Siochana have managed to walk themselves into becoming a non-entity in terms of law enforcement in their OWN country.

For example,Today (Sat 29/12) saw THREE open top tour buses Parked for most of the day in a dangerous manner on the approach to the Spire and also Clerys/Pennys pedestrian crossings in Dublin.

EACH of the buses in question flouted the Road Traffic Act regulations re parking on the approach to or departure from such crossings and additionally the requirement to observe road markings.

None of the Gardai who passed these Buses on their beat,sometimes singly other times in groups,bothered their backsides to direct a flicker of interest to the antics of these Busdrivers who were blatently displaying their understanding of the Garda motto......Bì Cuaramach agus do Nothing !

The Rank and File Gardai probably dont realize or even care about how irrelevant their Force has become,BUT the force has a burgeoning well paid and supposedly world class management structure which IS being paid to ensure the country is policed to at least some extent.

When "Ordinary decent Non-Criminals" such as contribute to these boards increasingly take their law enforcement reference points from the PSNI then SOMEBODY in Garda HQ should be at least mildly concerned.... :eek: :eek: :eek:

Navan Junction

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Of course, you meant Republic of Ireland?

The simplist and most PC term is probably the 26 counties / 6 counties of Ireland. It is factually accurate, and is one set of borders which nobody has a problem with.

The ROI doesn't exist (apart from in the FAI and the Argos catalogue), and northern Ireland is geographically inaccurate as it is not even the most northerly part of the Island.

Wishbone Ash

AlekSmart wrote: »

For example,Today (Sat 29/12) saw THREE open top tour buses Parked for most of the day in a dangerous manner on the approach to the Spire and also Clerys/Pennys pedestrian crossings in Dublin.

EACH of the buses in question flouted the Road Traffic Act regulations re parking on the approach to or departure from such crossings and additionally the requirement to observe road markings.

None of the Gardai who passed these Buses on their beat,sometimes singly other times in groups,bothered their backsides to direct a flicker of interest to the antics of these Busdrivers who were blatently displaying their understanding of the Garda motto......Bì Cuaramach agus do Nothing

In fairness to the Gardai on the beat, the problem seem to lie with the District Court judges who seem to be very reluctant to pursue traffic related matters. In my local District Court, cases involving learner unaccompanied driving have been struck out recently much to the annoyance of the Gardai concerned and from my experience, they (the judges) are reluctant to process any traffic related matter which has not presented a tangible negative outcome.

d_man07

Hagar wrote: »

Nothing like sound advice from a long standing poster who is a qualified driver.

Oh wait, you're a one post troll, my mistake carry on.

WTF?.. Long standing poster?. What difference does it make?. Do you think your opinion is more valid than mine just because your a mega looser with 9000+ posts???
Sorry mate, some of us have lives and dont live inside our computers.....

Richard

Navan Junction wrote: »

The simplist and most PC term is probably the 26 counties / 6 counties of Ireland.

No, that's actually one of the worst. They're slang terms, anyway.

The ROI doesn't exist

.

Yes it does. It is the official *description* of the state known as Ireland.

northern Ireland is geographically inaccurate as it is not even the most northerly part of the Island.

Yes, but it is the official, legal name of the place. NI and ROI are the best terms to use. If "Ireland" is used, it often seems to mean ROI on these boards, so maybe "island of Ireland" should be used for the whole thing.

Chris_533976

I watched two gardai in Cork the other day merrily walk past a clueless idiot who was causing chaos by completly blocking the yellow box.

Drives me mad that does.

Navan Junction

Richard wrote: »

No, that's actually one of the worst. They're slang terms, anyway.

The 26/6 county description is not slang - it is factually accurate. However ROI is slang

Nobody ever says that they are from the republic of Ireland - they say Ireland. Fair enough, you have Irish people that say they are from northern Ireland and they are entitled to do that.

However, you don't have people in Gibralter calling themselves Southern Spanish and then the rest of Spain calling themselves the Republic of Spain, Monarchy of Spain or whatever as a result.

The 26 county area does not need to be defined based on the status of the six counties. Why should a sovereign state redefine itself because half a province is divided over it's future?

Think of it another way - if the 26 counties is the Republic of Ireland, doesn't that make everybody born in that area an Irish Republican?

Don't think so - there would be many aghast at that.

Navan Junction

Richard wrote: »

If "Ireland" is used, it often seems to mean ROI on these boards

No, when Irish people say Ireland, they mean Ireland. As in the place they come from. You can't dis-establish an island

Hagar

d_man07 wrote: »

WTF?.. Long standing poster?. What difference does it make?. Do you think your opinion is more valid than mine just because your a mega looser with 9000+ posts???
Sorry mate, some of us have lives and dont live inside our computers.....

I gave no advice, so my post count is irrelevant, I was just amused at a two year provisional driver giving advice on how to break the law. You lack experience posting to give such bad advice in public.

BTW I'm not your mate.:cool:

Stark

Navan Junction wrote: »

The 26/6 county description is not slang - it is factually accurate. However ROI is slang

Nobody ever says that they are from the republic of Ireland - they say Ireland. Fair enough, you have Irish people that say they are from northern Ireland and they are entitled to do that.

However, you don't have people in Gibralter calling themselves Southern Spanish and then the rest of Spain calling themselves the Republic of Spain, Monarchy of Spain or whatever as a result.

The 26 county area does not need to be defined based on the status of the six counties. Why should a sovereign state redefine itself because half a province is divided over it's future?

"Ireland" is the state's official name, but "Republic of Ireland" is recognised as the official description.

Navan Junction wrote:

Think of it another way - if the 26 counties is the Republic of Ireland, doesn't that make everybody born in that area an Irish Republican?

Don't think so - there would be many aghast at that.

Not everyone born in the USSR was a socialist, but it was still a socialist state.

Navan Junction

Stark wrote: »

Not everyone born in the USSR was a socialist, but it was still a socialist state.

I know - point is no matter what the name of the country isn't ROI, and for the life of me I don't know why people would want to replace the name of a country with three initials which mean nothing.

The only other examples I can think of are USSR (a federation of states), the USA (a federation of states) and UAE (a federation of 'states').

Ireland is a country in it's own right and has a boundary which is impossible to redefine so this ROI stuff is crap.

The only other accurate description is county based

Stark

The "Republic of Ireland" description has more merit than than "26 counties" description when you consider that the Republic of Ireland Act is still current and defines "Republic of Ireland" as a description, whereas the 26 counties were divided into 29 counties by the Local Government Act.

murphaph

Stark wrote: »

The "Republic of Ireland" description has more merit than than "26 counties" description when you consider that the Republic of Ireland Act is still current and defines "Republic of Ireland" as a description, whereas the 26 counties were divided into 29 counties by the Local Government Act.

Lol. So true! And more than that, the 6 counties were divided into a plethora of councils in 1974 by their (UK) local government act of that year!

Is Eire acceptable to people then? It is the official name and there's no possibility of including the british part of the island in that? Northern Ireland is the legally correct name and so everyone knows what is meant by that.

Victor

On topic. Now!

AlekSmart

Quote Wishbone Ash
[ " In my local District Court, cases involving learner unaccompanied driving have been struck out recently much to the annoyance of the Gardai concerned and from my experience, they (the judges) are reluctant to process any traffic related matter which has not presented a [COLOR="Red"]tangible negative outcome.[/COLOR]]

END.

Got it in one.....for Tangible Negative Outcome read FATALITY.

Sadly it`s part of our national physche now to spend aeons looking at rapidly developing problems in so many different area`s.

These problems tend to be flagged quite early on by the hewers of wood and drawers of water,those who venture down the pit.
However it is simply far too threatening for the "Professionals" to even admit the existance of problems with their grand designs.

In the Case of the Spire pedestrian crossing the death of Maree Buckland in 2005 and the subsequent Coroners Court verdict and Jury`s rider quite obviously count for naught to either Dublin City Council,the Gardai or indeed the City Tour operation..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/coventry_warwickshire/5081376.stm

From what I can see all three of these bodies are prepared to wait for another "Tangible Negative Outcome" in order to keep their own little operations running smoothly.....