Do I have to join a union?

grizzly

I've been to an interview where I was successful, but we not signed the contract. My new boss is the head of the union of our industry and says said he'd "expect" me to join. He's very passionate about it, but I'm not to keen about joining as I don't agree with some of their policies. I'm afraid I may not get the job of I don't join (the job starts in 3 months). What is the law regarding this? Can I get let go for not joining? I thought it was voluntary.

Thanks for any advice.

Grizzly

grizzly

I the uk it says;

Workers do not have to join unions if they do not wish to do so, and they should not suffer any form of discrimination if they choose not to. Equally, they cannot be forced to take part in 'industrial action' (going on strike). For industrial action to be legally valid, a majority of union members must agree through a secret ballot.

I'm guessing the same protection is offered here?

qwertz

It might be easier to join and save yourself a lot of hassle. Ask yourself if it's worth risking your job over. And I am not condoning bullying somebody into joining a union!

grizzly

I've thought about that, but then again I don't want to work with a bully.

seamus

The only way they can force you to join a union is if they specify it in your contract of employment. I know of a couple of companies that specify a condition of employment is that you join the union (and pay union subs).

I don't agree with that stance and I think that it wouldn't hold much legal stability if challenged. You can be no more forced to join a union than you can be prevented from joining one.

Technically, they can't fire you for not joining a union. However, you will have a probationary period in which they can just let you go for no reason. If it was me and my boss was passionate about being a union politician, I'd be gone like a shot.

AARRRGH

If you want the job, take it, join the union, and in a few months leave the union saying you don't like some of their policies (so play dumb for the moment.)

bigjohnny80

Unions bad . . if your boss is in a union it bad bad . . .

I'm guessing he has a beard . . .

(By the way you do not have to join, note he said 'expect' not 'must' coz he knows this too)

doolox

The thing about unions being bad all depends on what sector you are employed in. Public sector and a lot of natively-owned Irish sector in general you get nothing without union membership and agitation. Its the way the country is run and forms part of the theatre of life. Multinationals do not recognise or deal with unions but it doesn't stop them using unionised labour through 3rd party companies or agencies whose principals deal with the unions directly. This allows the multinationals to hold union involvement at arms length and stop union activity "infecting" the mind-set of the direct employees.
As others have said in this thread I would be very wary of a boss who is so in favour of unions to want to force you to join one. What's in it for him? Whose side is he on? The Irish trade union scene is full of examples of one union for the employees and another for the bosses eg. AGSI and GRA for the higher and lower ranks of the Gardai. The army and a lot of the public service have similar arrangements. Find out what sector you are going into. If it is private and highly competitive or a multinational be very wary. If it is part of government, education, medical etc where there is legal protection from competition, especially foreign competition, then it may be part of the furniture and no harm at all.

amen

Unions bad

care to explain why?

After all unions help ensures children don't have to work, that saturday is not part of the regular working week, helping set up sickness schemse, health and safety.

Unions are only as good as its members

AARRRGH

amen wrote: »

care to explain why?

After all unions help ensures children don't have to work, that saturday is not part of the regular working week, helping set up sickness schemse, health and safety.

Unions are only as good as its members

I think most of the stuff you've mentioned is what they did in the past.

Today most people see unions as organisations for lazy, greedy people, e.g. nurses. (Not saying I think that way...)

seamus

amen wrote: »

care to explain why?

After all unions help ensures children don't have to work, that saturday is not part of the regular working week, helping set up sickness schemse, health and safety.

Unions are only as good as its members

Unions primary purpose was to ensure entitlements and protection for workers. Now that worker's rights are enshrined in law (and we have some great rights and protection under Irish law), unions have held onto this "entitlements" idea, but gone too far. Instead of ensuring basic rights and entitlements, they basically hold workplaces to ransom by insisting on pay rises for changes in work practices and preventing private companies from making changes to their business as they are perfectly entitled to do.

They've lost all credibility with anyone who's not part of a union and you'd be hard pressed to find any non-union worker who doesn't consider unions to be scum.

nesf

amen wrote: »

After all unions help ensures children don't have to work, that saturday is not part of the regular working week, helping set up sickness schemse, health and safety.

Unions are only as good as its members

Unions aren't automatically good things. In some sectors they serve little or no purpose other than to extort money for petty changes in work practices etc. The idea of "entitlements" in the private workplace is being taken too far in many areas.

nesf

seamus wrote: »

They've lost all credibility with anyone who's not part of a union and you'd be hard pressed to find any non-union worker who doesn't consider unions to be scum.

I wouldn't go quite that far.

the_syco

bigjohnny80 wrote: »

Unions bad . . if your boss is in a union it bad bad . . .

amen wrote: »

care to explain why?

I'm thinking it's because if you didn't like your boss, you'd talk to your union, but if you boss was head of the union, you may get no help from them.

Hagar

If your boss is the head of the union who will fight your corner should you have a dispute with your boss?

Just a thought, do carry on.

John R

A lot of the responses to the OP's question are people's personal opinions and prejudices about unions and as interesting as that topic is :rolleyes: they have little to do with the OP's situation.

grizzly wrote: »

I the uk it says;

Workers do not have to join unions if they do not wish to do so, and they should not suffer any form of discrimination if they choose not to. Equally, they cannot be forced to take part in 'industrial action' (going on strike). For industrial action to be legally valid, a majority of union members must agree through a secret ballot.

I'm guessing the same protection is offered here?

Laws regarding unions are very different here than in the UK, Thatcher changed them in the 80s when she waged war with the unions.

If you really want the job then it might be best to just agree with the boss and join for now. You can always leave the union in the future when you will know better what the boss and workplace is like.

Unless joining a particular union was a condition of employment then they cannot force you to join but if the boss feels that strongly about it then he may not take kindly to you saying no. Even though he cannot legally sack you for it there are many things that he could do to make you miserable. On the other hand if he really does believe in worker's rights then he might accept your decision, nobody here can tell what he is like.

As for being in a union that your boss is the head of, sounds a bit pointless really. If the boss is an asshole then his union is not going to be much use in dealing with your boss, the asshole. On the other hand if he is a decent guy you probably won't need the services of a union in the first place.

KdjaCL

Take the job and dont join the union, you need to fill in a form so ehh just forget it a lot.

i did that in Unilever i hate unions so didnt join, never a word said as everyone assumed i was in it. < in Unilever it was part of the contract but i just didnt.


Now if something happens and you need the union join it and use them


kdjac

doolox

Anyone who thinks employers aren't organised and advocating for their economic advantage at government and international level are naive. Just like unions employers seek to influence legislation, public opinion etc to their way of thinking. It suits them for the general public to see trade unions as greedy, self-seeking and anti-social. One has to ask why has housing, as one example, gone from 3 times average salary to nearly ten? Why have essential things, like doctors visits, gone so expensive? Why have effective working hours gone up so much?

Maybe we need a more modern approach to trade unionism, maybe a change of name or tactics or sanctions used to leverage advantage in the negotiating sphere. The old truisms about being united for a common cause and sharing information about rights and entitlements etc. with other workers and holding out for the best deal etc still hold true.

Wishbone Ash

seamus wrote:

you'd be hard pressed to find any non-union worker who doesn't consider unions to be scum.

dublindude wrote:

most people see unions as organisations for lazy, greedy people

bigjohnny80 wrote:

Unions bad

I'm always dismayed by the negative opinions here towards trade unions. I'm an active member of my trade union for the past 20 years, the last 8 years at committee level. There seems to be a lot of ignorance out there about the organisation and operation of unions.

Leaders of unions do not elect themselves. Each year an AGM must be held. All members, in good standing, are entitled to attend and speak at the AGM. The officer board and committe are elected by nominations from the floor which are seconded. If there is a counter nominations, a ballot/vote is taken (usually a show of hands).

A person who is an "asshole" is not going to get the support of members. Educated intelligent employees want to be represented by someone similar. Lay abouts and mouth pieces tend not to bother attending meetings and would never get elected to any position anyway even if they did. They then bore the backside of everone else in the pub talking about how the union should be run.

I always find it strange when people critise union leaders. The people who are most active in my union are the above average employees who care passionately about the career they have chosen and know the job inside out. They spend a considerable amount of their free time on union related business without any remuneration. The only 'perk' :rolleyes: I receive is a €50 annual expense towards my personal telephone bill. That's less than €1 per week.

My colleagues belong to 4 different unions, although only 2 have negotiating rights. Approximately 90% of our workforce is unionised. The other 10% are perfectly entitled to remain non members. I don't understand this notion that unions are "strike happy". I've yet to meet any member who wants to go on strike. There's no pay while on strike. Some disputes take years to settle, in one case taking 13 years. We recently made progress on another issue which has been going on for 7 years. 95% of our work is not pay related but relates to breaches of conditions of employment, health and safety, disciplinary proceedings and so on.

Many of the statutory rights and entitlements enjoyed by all employees were shaped over the years by trade union involvement. The 10% of my colleagues who are non unionised, seem to have no problem accepting better terms and condition that the other 90% have fought to achieve. People are perfectly entitled to their smug "I've no time for unions" attitude but I have a wry smile when I see these same people requesting an application form when they find themselves in some form of trouble. A bit like trying to join the AA when the car breaks down!

nesf

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I'm always dismayed by the negative opinions here towards trade unions. I'm an active member of my trade union for the past 20 years, the last 8 years at committee level. There seems to be a lot of ignorance out there about the organisation and operation of unions.

Would you disagree with me that in some areas it's gone from protecting workers to unreasonable demands for minor work practices changes? I've seen unions ask for a pay rise because the company was changing technology and was paying for the worker's training. They would have to press a few more buttons (and were being paid while they learned how these buttons were different to the previous buttons) and yet still demanded a pay increase for it.

Unions do have an important role to play in the private sector simply because there will always be gaps in the legislation that allow the potential for employers to screw employees but equally unions can start making unreasonable and untenable demands on employers restricting the discretion of employers in areas that they should have discretion.

Wishbone Ash

nesf wrote: »

Would you disagree with me that in some areas it's gone from protecting workers to unreasonable demands for minor work practices changes?

Yes, I agree. I can never understand why some employees refuse the chance of gaining an extra qualification at the employer's expense and employer's time especially when the additional qualification is one which can be transferred to another employer or used in a CV etc.

In my employment, many changes in work practise are relatively routine and only involve a courtesy discussion with management. You tend to hear about the controversial ones though and not the routine ones.

is_that_so

I am not and have never been a member of a union. Nevertheless I don't have a problem with unions per se and see an important purpose for them. However I am sure the more pro-union will accept that some public service unions have done all unions a disservice by their unrestrained greed. I find that deeply shameful but as a relative of mine in the health service says "who's going to refuse free money?".

I remember a Fás trainer I knew, recalling his experiences of local negotiations where himself and the shop steward would work it out in 5 minutes and then spend an hour or so talking about golf. That to me sounds like the way to do things.

mikemac

Why do I hate unions?

I used to work for a major pharmaceutical (spelling?) company, this place is a household name.
Everyone was in the union and to be fair, it was fantastic pay for a factory position and you could do courses and get extra pay increments. I was an happy member but I didn't go to any meetings or votes.

From time to time, someone might decide to leave the union or a new hire would not join for their own reasons. But then we would have shop stewards coming around and telling us not to associate with that person and not to sit with them in the canteen.
Nothing worse and as lonely than sitting in a canteen on your own so I thought that was uncalled for. It was bullying pure and simple.

Second reason was finishing a night shift and trying to get a 8am bus from Limerick to Galway. The bus drivers were picketing Limerick station and I saw them kicking someones car who tried to cross the picket, possibly some manager.
Ended up getting a train to Ennis and another bus and I was in no mood for it after working all night.

Later found out on boards it was to do with the roster being hand-written or typed. I still don't believe it, surely noone would pull a strike over that :eek:

If I want help on something I'll go to Citizens Information Bureau who provide great help. I wouldn't go to a union
http://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/

nesf

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You tend to hear about the controversial ones though and not the routine ones.

True, if it's resolved quickly and efficiently then there's no story for the media.

"Union and management officials agree on new work practice changes over tea at the 11 o clock break"

Wishbone Ash

micmclo wrote: »

we would have shop stewards coming around and telling us not to associate with that person and not to sit with them in the canteen.
Nothing worse and as lonely than sitting in a canteen on your own so I thought that was uncalled for. It was bullying pure and simple

I totally agree.

micmclo wrote:

I saw them kicking someones car who tried to cross the picket

I'd safely say that 99% of union members would deplore that sort of activity. There's a few bad apples everwhere and they tend to rise to the surface - especially when there's safety in numbers. When we hold a picket, there is no interference at all with traffic/pedestrians entering or leaving the premises. If someone stops to enquire, we explain the nature of the protest but leave it entirely up to themselves whether to enter or not.