Ireland can do more on road safety - EU study

Mr. Presentable

Wednesday, 10 October 2007 09:17
Ireland is still not reducing its road safety record as effectively as other European countries, according to a survey of EU traffic safety across Europe.

We are ranked 12th out of 29 European countries for road deaths, while we are in 10th place in our ability to reduce fatal accidents.

The report by the European Road Safety Council, to be published later this morning, also found that a slight improvement in the fatality figures for 2006 was too small to have been anything other than chance, as opposed to a result of road policies.

AdvertisementThe European Union has set a target of reducing road deaths by half in the ten years prior to 2010.

So far, only three countries are on target. France, Luxemburg and Portugal have reduced road deaths by 40% over the past five years. Ireland's performance continues to be average.

Eastern Europe is still struggling to cope with road accidents. Lithuania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Estonia and Romania all had more road deaths last year than in 2001.

Portugal has continued to improve, with road deaths down by one-fifth since 2006. The report says this is due to improved infrastructure and new motorways taking traffic away from narrow rural roads.

Luxemburg was praised for making road safety a political priority. The drink driving limit was reduced to 0.5 per mg and to 0.2 per mg for adolescents. In Ireland and the UK it remains 0.8 per mg for all drivers.

In France, which has performed consistently well since 2001, the authorities have rolled out 1,100 speed cameras and the number of detected offences doubled between 2005 and 2006.

In Switzerland, the number of drivers stopped for speeding and alcohol offences has doubled between 2000 and 2006.

But deaths remain a problem on European roads - last year 39,200 people were killed in traffic accidents. End.

How much does the highlighted section affect Ireland's performance, do you think?

I.S.T.

nipplenuts wrote:

Eastern Europe is still struggling to cope with road accidents. Lithuania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Estonia and Romania all had more road deaths last year than in 2001.

How much does the highlighted section affect Ireland's performance, do you think?

You seem to be suggesting that drivers from Eastern European countries are causing our road safety record to be so bad? Do you have any figures to back this up?

I.S.T.

Quote from the RTE news report:

In France, which has performed consistently well since 2001, the authorities have rolled out 1,100 speed cameras and the number of detected offences doubled between 2005 and 2006.

Of course they "forget" to mention that all the speed cameras in France are signposted and their locations published by the French Government (both fixed and mobile cameras), as opposed to hiding them in bushes in Ireland:

Fixed cameras: http://www.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/data/radars/index.html

Mobile cameras: http://www.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/data/radars/radars_mobiles.htm

Mr. Presentable

IrishSpeedTraps wrote:

You seem to be suggesting that drivers from Eastern European countries are causing our road safety record to be so bad? Do you have any figures to back this up?

No, I have no figures. But I am asking the question. We have thousands of Eastern Europeans driving here - on the left when they are used to driving on the right. They have a high accident rate at home, how much do these factors contribute to the stats here?

I did not say they are "causing our road safety record to be so bad", I am merely asking if they have a disproportionate contribution.

Mr. Presentable

IrishSpeedTraps wrote:

Quote from the RTE news report:
Of course they "forget" to mention that all the speed cameras in France are signposted and their locations published by the French Government (both fixed and mobile cameras), as opposed to hiding them in bushes in Ireland:

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Sadly, and to my immense frustration, we hide many things in the bushes - cameras, gatsos, road signs. Northbound on the M50, for example, you better know where the Ballymun exit is, you're unlikely to see the sign.

craichoe

How about building a decent public transport system. That'll bring the number of crashes down by reducing the amount of cars on the road.

RobAMerc

Just like the HSA the RSA is a government sponsored group set up to sepcifically deflect blame away from government inaction or underperformance in their specific areas and to in turn cast the blame on whomever it can but those actually responsible.

RSA - "its drivers fault for speeding" - Not the governments fault for yrs of inaction on driver ed and testing or a shocking national road network where decisions on roads were made by people with zero knowledge of the field and a hefty vested interest in the funding.

HSA - blames doctors and even at one point told people is was there fault for the MRSA outbreak - never the governments fault for yrs of undrfunding and inaction with a crumbling infrastructure and zero planning.

layke

IrishSpeedTraps wrote:

Quote from the RTE news report:



Of course they "forget" to mention that all the speed cameras in France are signposted and their locations published by the French Government (both fixed and mobile cameras), as opposed to hiding them in bushes in Ireland:

Fixed cameras: http://www.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/data/radars/index.html

Mobile cameras: http://www.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/data/radars/radars_mobiles.htm

Yeah been to France on many an occasion and they do work. they are actually interested in saving lives where as when we do the same it will probably work out more like your signature.

Pherekydes

nipplenuts wrote:

They have a high accident rate at home, how much do these factors contribute to the stats here?

Have they? Maybe the ones that come here have never been involved in an accident at home?

The question you are asking could be asked of thousands of Irish drivers, who drive on the left here and then drive on the right in France (say). Our accident rate is higher than France's, so do Irish drivers contribute disproportionately to France's accident rate?

Accident rates (and other such statistics) are averages and cannot be applied to any specific motorist.

DonJose

IrishSpeedTraps wrote:

Of course they "forget" to mention that all the speed cameras in France are signposted and their locations published by the French Government.

Is there a fee to download the locations???

I'd like to see a lot more permanent high visability speed cameras placed on all types of roads.

Gregor Samsa

nipplenuts wrote:

I did not say they are "causing our road safety record to be so bad", I am merely asking if they have a disproportionate contribution.

According to this article from last year:

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/04/23/story13643.asp

almost a quarter of the road fatalities referenced were non-nationals.

Of course, that doesn't mean that they necessairily caused the incidents (this is only tracking the deceased victims), and says nothing about the specific nationality or regionality of the individuals. Also, a rough statistic from a 3 month period can't be used as the basis for proper analysis.

I wonder does anyone have more valid statistics?

MrPudding

DonJose wrote:

Is there a fee to download the locations???

I'd like to see a lot more permanent high visability speed cameras placed on all types of roads.

Your digs at Irishspeedtraps are getting quite boring. I believe that prior knowledge of speed camera location, like speeding, do not feature at the top of cause of road deaths in Ireland.

No there is no fee because it is a service that is provided by a government that actually has an interest, and has had smoe success, at reducing road deaths.

MrP

Tipsy Mac

Would be interesting to see how many collisions per 1000 people each country has and of them what percentage of each were fatal, this would likely lead us again on to our friend Mr VRT killing motorists.

gurramok

Speaking of road safety.

I came across a checkpoint in Glasnevin this evening just gone.

It was a drink drive/check insurance&tax/looking for crim types checkpoint, bloosy unusual(welcoming it here!)

The guards had those things that those airport guys use to direct a plane on a runway(whatever they are called), loads of cones around in a side lane where you pull into, gardai manning junctions about 50m from the checkpoint in case anyone did u-turns!

There were armed plainclothes gardai as well(i have come across many of these at their own checkpoints) which i have never seen before at a drink drive checkpoint which gave me the conclusion they were doing a 3 in 1 job!

What was unusal was the above, i've come across many checkpoints but not like above, it was like a new experience.Anyway, they breathalysed me, passed as i hadn't a drop to drink

Is the above a new version of gardai policing by the road traffic corps or something?

I've also noticed many cars being pulled over individually by non-checkpoint gardai anytime i drive out any evening.

Maybe its a new crackdown lately or just traffic corps being boosted?

Mr. Presentable

LIGHTNING wrote: »

3) Stop trying to make it out that speeding is the cause of all accidents. Careless driving,drink driving,fatigue and insufficient driver education are more of a problem.

Who says speeding is the cause of all accidents? You mean "fatalities", no?

If we collide at 30kph we walk away. If we collide at 90kph you walk away. If we collide at 150kph neither of us walks away.

All the other problems you mention are indeed the causes of accidents.

DjeInSlanchaLan

phutyle wrote: »

According to this article from last year:

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/04/23/story13643.asp

almost a quarter of the road fatalities referenced were non-nationals.

Of course, that doesn't mean that they necessairily caused the incidents (this is only tracking the deceased victims), and says nothing about the specific nationality or regionality of the individuals. Also, a rough statistic from a 3 month period can't be used as the basis for proper analysis.

I wonder does anyone have more valid statistics?

i woul like to point out that this comportement is irresponsible

thinking that you have death in ireland road because of foreigner is pure TV lie to make you feel better.

I'm a foreigner i learn how to drive in france and i think the training of new driver in ireland is crazy, you basicaly can drive your car 3 year with a provisional license before getting the real one and most of the people are using it as temporary licence to drive around not trained and taking very bad habit that will cause a lots of accident. For example i knew an irish guy who pass his theory test then bought his car, after 3 month he was burning light doing dangerous overtaking and even worse he was lost on a national road and start to drive on the right side of the road ....

when i'm driving on the road of ireland i see irish driver behaving dangerously for example overtaking where you have no hard shoulder and no visibility, changing lane without turn line, no side check or changing 3 lane in one time or crossing the zebra to take an exit.

and for the non national the way how some people behave when they see a car non register in ireland is insane, i felt that sometime people where trying to puch me out of the road, every week i have someone is doing me a fishtale or burning a priority. the over day i end up in front of a guy who took a wrong way and when i told him that he was on wrong way he told me "your tourist, i'm irish so shut up, you foreiger are dangerous driver", i was so stupefied by this answer that i could not reply.

I'm going to get an irish car soon as i friend told me that people are not behaving that dangerously.

so TV tell you that lots of foreiguer get killed but they don't tell you what happen. Maybe the guy went out alone because he was drunk (i can't believe that one of your minister said that 2 pints was ok for driving) or maybe someone over took him and did a fishtale and the result ended as an accident.

there this was my scream againt this political bull**** about foreign driver being dangerous:mad:

Gregor Samsa

Yes, DjeInSlanchaLan, I think we're all in agreement that there are plenty of very bad Irish drivers, and that looking to blame others isn't going to solve our problems. I did mention that the article I quoted was about the high proportion of non-nationals being fatally injured in road traffic accidents, not that they were necessairily causing them. So I certainly didn't claim that all foreign drivers were dangerous.

Anan1

Remember also that many foreigners coming to live here are young males. Young males in foreign countries are more likely to crash cars, regardless of nationality.

Del2005

I know that this isn't going to sound good, but are death rate on the roads is going down as a percentage of drivers on the roads. 10 years ago there wheren't as many cars on the roads yet are death rate was as high as now. So there has been an improvement, but the amout of drivers now on the roads has increased so thats why the deaths aren't going down.

peasant

Guys, you can debate this till the cows come home, but there are a few simple truths:

Most roads in Ireland are in a bad state ...no proper signage, no cats eyes, no lines, potholes, silly cambers, stupid speed limits, criminal on/off ramps, no barriers, bad junction design, etc etc. ... so "ROAD SAFETY" clearly isn't a priority

Neither is "DRIVER TRAINING" ...seriously ..where else can you FAIL your driving test and then drive home in your own car ??

On these two points alone ..yes ...Ireland could do more, a lot more, on road safety.

A few non-nationals driving responsibly or recklessly aren't going to swing it either way

wil

This was almost identical front page main headline on the Irish Indo over 5 years ago.
Something like EU going to intervene if Ireland doesnt reduce its road deaths dramatically.
(Didnt even make the front page this time)
Still waiting for either to happen (intervention or reduction)

DjeInSlanchaLan

Training it's all about training

for waht i know france death toll went down due to more training and automatic speedcatcher that are rentlessly taking point away (in france you start with 12 points and loose them).

There is 2 way of learning driving, when you have 16 you can enroll to lear how to drive coached, you have to passs a theoritical test then you are train how to drive by a professional then you are allow to drive coached by your parents, at NO time you are allow to drive alone, and every 6 month you must have a review with the driving school, in case of offense i think the offence is shared between the driver and the coach making the coach very sensitive to the dirver behavior. when the learner reach 18 he can pass his driving license

it is a proven learning system has insurance provide standard rate for young driver that did this training when they obtain there driving licence

for people that learn at 18 they have to pass the theoritical test before be allowed to lear how to drive they have to do a minimum of 20 hours of training before be allowed to pass the driving test. Driver who chose this option will have there insurance rate doubled for the first 2 years

the driving test last 35 min with 25 min of driving, it must cover urban driving, with 1 or 2 questions about the safety element of the car, then there is a maneuver ( parc the car between 2 cars or U turn in 3 points,...) then there is driving in country side. During this test mistake are not allowed, any mistake or if at anytime the driver do not check his mirror, dead angle, the student fail automaticaly the test (1 st time sucess 50 %).

During the 1st two year the young driver will have to wear an A sign like the L here, they have a compulsory speed limit who is 20 kph below the standard roed limit (example, a motorway at 130Kph limit will be 110 for him, a motorway who is 110 will be 90 and so on except for 50 and 30 kph zone)
during those 2 year the driver will have only a 6 points allowance and every offence will have the amount of point double.

Also driving without a license is penilized of 5 year with total interdiction of passing any state exam (living cert included) or register your self to any university plus 15 000 € fine and a year in jail

fine for offense such as

drink driving :
legal limit 0.5 mg/litre of blod
between 0.5 and 0.8 : 6 points penalty + 135 €
over 0.8 : 6 points penalty + up tu 4500 € fine + up to 2 year in jail

in case of accident
if there is harmed people the fine pass up to 30 000 € and it is up to 3 year in jail
if there is a dead the fine is up to 150 000 € and it is up to 10 year in jail

speeding
20 Kph over speed limit : 135 € + 1 point
between 20 to 30 Kph over speed limit : 135 € + 2 points
between 30 to 40 Kph over speed limit : 135 € + 3 points + up to 3 years of driving license suspension
between 40 to 50 Kph over speed limit : 135 € + 4 points + up to 3 years of driving license suspension.
over 50 kph : 1500 € + 6 points + suspention of driving licence onsite and convocation in front of the court.

question is it that strict in ireland ?

Altreab

DjeInSlanchaLan wrote: »

Training it's all about training

for waht i know france death toll went down due to more training and automatic speedcatcher that are rentlessly taking point away (in france you start with 12 points and loose them).

There is 2 way of learning driving, when you have 16 you can enroll to lear how to drive coached, you have to passs a theoritical test then you are train how to drive by a professional then you are allow to drive coached by your parents, at NO time you are allow to drive alone, and every 6 month you must have a review with the driving school, in case of offense i think the offence is shared between the driver and the coach making the coach very sensitive to the dirver behavior. when the learner reach 18 he can pass his driving license

it is a proven learning system has insurance provide standard rate for young driver that did this training when they obtain there driving licence

for people that learn at 18 they have to pass the theoritical test before be allowed to lear how to drive they have to do a minimum of 20 hours of training before be allowed to pass the driving test. Driver who chose this option will have there insurance rate doubled for the first 2 years

the driving test last 35 min with 25 min of driving, it must cover urban driving, with 1 or 2 questions about the safety element of the car, then there is a maneuver ( parc the car between 2 cars or U turn in 3 points,...) then there is driving in country side. During this test mistake are not allowed, any mistake or if at anytime the driver do not check his mirror, dead angle, the student fail automaticaly the test (1 st time sucess 50 %).

During the 1st two year the young driver will have to wear an A sign like the L here, they have a compulsory speed limit who is 20 kph below the standard roed limit (example, a motorway at 130Kph limit will be 110 for him, a motorway who is 110 will be 90 and so on except for 50 and 30 kph zone)
during those 2 year the driver will have only a 6 points allowance and every offence will have the amount of point double.

Also driving without a license is penilized of 5 year with total interdiction of passing any state exam (living cert included) or register your self to any university plus 15 000 € fine and a year in jail

fine for offense such as

drink driving :
legal limit 0.5 mg/litre of blod
between 0.5 and 0.8 : 6 points penalty + 135 €
over 0.8 : 6 points penalty + up tu 4500 € fine + up to 2 year in jail

in case of accident
if there is harmed people the fine pass up to 30 000 € and it is up to 3 year in jail
if there is a dead the fine is up to 150 000 € and it is up to 10 year in jail

speeding
20 Kph over speed limit : 135 € + 1 point
between 20 to 30 Kph over speed limit : 135 € + 2 points
between 30 to 40 Kph over speed limit : 135 € + 3 points + up to 3 years of driving license suspension
between 40 to 50 Kph over speed limit : 135 € + 4 points + up to 3 years of driving license suspension.
over 50 kph : 1500 € + 6 points + suspention of driving licence onsite and convocation in front of the court.

question is it that strict in ireland ?

eh is it F*@k ...... and thats why things are so bad here. I nearly Pity the politition that would try to implement THAT level of road safety measures here. that said we are still a LOT better than last year was!! Road deaths are down 90 from the previous July to July figures. but trend seems to have started to climb again last 2 months
From what you have said there France seems to be pushing to get driver trainging started at 16 rather that 18 . The "double the insurance" if you wait until 18 bit would be a right good incentive here to get it started earlier. Also the coaching drivers sharing responsibility for the learner driver is very tough. It means that a kid "borrowing" a car for a evening "messing" could get their parents banned from driving within a few hours. OUCH

OT..... Sad thing people forget about is that for every person that dies 6-8 are injured. Thankfully injuries were also down 700 approx last year.
Its the injured peoples medical bills that drive up the cost of accidents NOT the deaths. When people talk about road deaths driving up cost of insurance they are talking rubbish ...its the injured. and yes i was one of those that got injured in a RTA a few years ago and i still shudder at the thought of the medical bills i would have had to pay if the State (through the health system) or insurers hadnt picked up the tab. For all the faults the Health system has here its wonderful in that sense.

deman

Altreab wrote: »

...its the injured. and yes i was one of those that got injured in a RTA a few years ago and i still shudder at the thought of the medical bills i would have had to pay if the State (through the health system) or insurers hadnt picked up the tab.

Know exactly what you're talking about. I had an accident last year when the other car veered onto my side of the road and the medical bills for 4 people (me, my wife and 2 kids) plus the p***k driving the other probably came to at least 100K alone. Then there's lawyer bills, time off work allowance, damages etc etc....

Back to the politician that introduces the same level of strictness as France, or here in Finland, would he really be criticised by the public and the media? Or would he be hailed as the first person with the balls to introduce such drastic measures to insure the safety of people on the roads? Look at the smoking bill - drastic measures but wholly accepted. As someone pointed out earlier, are there any other countries in Europe where a person can fail his/her driving test and still be allowed to drive home unaccompanied??

DjeInSlanchaLan

deman wrote: »

Know exactly what you're talking about. I had an accident last year when the other car veered onto my side of the road and the medical bills for 4 people (me, my wife and 2 kids) plus the p***k driving the other probably came to at least 100K alone. Then there's lawyer bills, time off work allowance, damages etc etc....

Back to the politician that introduces the same level of strictness as France, or here in Finland, would he really be criticised by the public and the media? Or would he be hailed as the first person with the balls to introduce such drastic measures to insure the safety of people on the roads? Look at the smoking bill - drastic measures but wholly accepted. As someone pointed out earlier, are there any other countries in Europe where a person can fail his/her driving test and still be allowed to drive home unaccompanied??

FYI the guy who did that is actualy : sarkozy, who is now the president so not such political sucide