The Monday night wars

Vince135792003

Here's a video of an hour plus long round table discussion on WWE 24/7 with JR, Lawler, Hayes, Foley and Bischoff on the Monday night wars. It's really worth a look. Way better than the dvd.

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/wwe+monday+night+war/video/x32qxq_wwe-roundtable-discussion-remonday_sport part 1 (other parts on the right hand side)

Basically, what's anyones thoughts on the video itself? Who came off well? Who didn't?

General thoughts on the war between the two would be cool too. Your favorite moments, what you think was the turning point in the whole thing and who do you think was responsible for the death of WCW?

I'll post mine later.

fatal

thanks vince
Il watch it and post up my comments later.I love reading and watching stuff about the Monday night wars.Classic stuff!

Minto

Had a look at the first one of these earlier, seems like good stuff. I'll watch it when I get a chance. Thanks Vince!

Vince135792003

I think Michael Hayes was auditioning for a job on Prime Time when he filmed this. He went for Bischoff a few times!

JR is awesome on it too. He had alot of great lines. On Bret he said,"I wish we had 20 of him right now quite frankly".

Mr.Nice Guy

Thanks for highlighting this. Had heard about it and was keen on viewing it.

Vince135792003 wrote:

Basically, what's anyones thoughts on the video itself? Who came off well? Who didn't?

Well what bothered me was how they pretty much erased ECW from the history books. There was a passing reference to Foley and Austin coming from ECW but that was it. I think it's fair to say that ECW's role in the Monday Night Wars was quite significant seeing as WCW's "edginess" and WWE's "attitude" was influenced significantly by ECW's style. I was disappointed that Mick didn't make mention of it. I would have liked to see someone from ECW there like Styles or Tazz to do so. Lawler was pretty much anonymous throughout wasn't he?

I also felt they downplayed The Rock quite a bit too. They praised Austin, Foley and D-X but The Rock was a big player in the Attitude era and WCW hadn't anyone to rival his mic prowess.

Vince135792003 wrote:

General thoughts on the war between the two would be cool too. Your favorite moments, what you think was the turning point in the whole thing and who do you think was responsible for the death of WCW?

I think the latter stages of 1997 was the big turning point, with particular reference to Survivor Series in Montreal. WCW was given a gift with that situation and should have made Bret a mega-star (especially considering the deal they gave him) and there was potential to really hurt Vince at that time. Instead they botched the whole thing and Vince got into the "Mr McMahon" character which really got great when Austin entered the fray. Also that year we had the Starrcade fiasco with Hogan and Sting and I think fans sensed that the tide was turning.

As for why WCW died, I think the politics was just ridiculous with stale, overpaid veterans hogging the limelight and not letting the young talent shine. Look at the guys they had at their disposal. Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, Malenko, Mysterio etc. I also think the arrival of Russo was the nail in the coffin. The stuff he came up with was just woeful.

I think the difference between WWE and WCW was that in Vince McMahon the WWE had a great captain who could steer the ship through some rocky storms whereas with WCW, it was a case of rats deserting a sinking ship. I'm thinking of those guys on guaranteed contracts content to do F all and collect a paycheque.

mcguirkj

For me, the turning point was the weekend of the fingerpoke of doom.

First, WCW, having built Goldberg as an unstoppable monster, on a streak of about 300 matches, completely wasted the rub they could have given somebody by putting them over him on Kevin Nash. It was stale.

Then, the next night, they had Hollywood Hogan returning, and they have Nash lay down for him, completely devaluing the title, and reforming the nWo, which again, was stale.

And then, they give away the results of Raw, where Foley was winning the title. I, for one, switched over.

rossie1977

Vince135792003 wrote:

Basically, what's anyones thoughts on the video itself? Who came off well? Who didn't?

Very good discussion. I thought bischoff came off very well as was to be expected from this guy. Jerry Lawler didn't come off well at all i thought

General thoughts on the war between the two would be cool too

The war, as the boyz touched on was a fantastic time to be a wrestling fan. Throw ECW in the mix at the same time and basically you didn't know where to turn circa 1996-1998. At the time i was getting all the nitros/WCW payperviews from Fin Martin (editor of powerslam) and i still watch em today (mainly for the amazing undercards).

Your favorite moments

i don't have one favourite moment but scott hall arriving on nitro that monday night in late may 1996 will stand the test of time imo.

what you think was the turning point in the whole thing

i don't think you can pin it down to one major turning point, WCW had the talent pool with guys like benoit, eddie, rey, dragon, chavo, jericho etc etc but the failed to utilize this talent to its potential which played into the hands of Vince. Bischoff had two big ideas (nitro, nwo) but that was that, when push came to shove he didn't have the creative ability needed.

and who do you think was responsible for the death of WCW?

what lead to WCW's demise?? a whole raft of things imo, bischoff, hogan, nash, huge paychecks, ridiculous booking, the failure to create new stars between 96-98 (goldberg being the exception)

ShawnRaven

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Well what bothered me was how they pretty much erased ECW from the history books. There was a passing reference to Foley and Austin coming from ECW but that was it. I think it's fair to say that ECW's role in the Monday Night Wars was quite significant seeing as WCW's "edginess" and WWE's "attitude" was influenced significantly by ECW's style. I was disappointed that Mick didn't make mention of it. I would have liked to see someone from ECW there like Styles or Tazz to do so. Lawler was pretty much anonymous throughout wasn't he?

You hit the nail on the head though, ECW was more of an influence on the MNW rather than a player. Probably the reason it wasn't mention. Whereas the discussion is more about the war itself, rather than the steps taken to combat it.

I also felt they downplayed The Rock quite a bit too. They praised Austin, Foley and D-X but The Rock was a big player in the Attitude era and WCW hadn't anyone to rival his mic prowess.

Problem was Rock wasn't as good as he would be come at the time WCW were handing WWE's ass to them. By the time Rock became legendary on the mic, which would have been around the time of Summerslam 98 with his program with HHH and that awesome ladder match (refering to HHH as a half-queer and having the entire world in stitches). By that time though it wasn't really so much that there was a war left. As a couple of months after this, WWE would take over and leave WCW for dust. A lot of people blame Russo, others blame Bischoff. I personally believe it was just management in general dropped the ball.

I think the latter stages of 1997 was the big turning point, with particular reference to Survivor Series in Montreal. WCW was given a gift with that situation and should have made Bret a mega-star (especially considering the deal they gave him) and there was potential to really hurt Vince at that time. Instead they botched the whole thing and Vince got into the "Mr McMahon" character which really got great when Austin entered the fray. Also that year we had the Starrcade fiasco with Hogan and Sting and I think fans sensed that the tide was turning.

Agreed. Bret was so badly used in WCW and was brought in for the wrong reasons, to launch Thunder? A B Show?! Surprised Hogan didn't go to Bischoff and tell him to pull his head out of his ass! Hogan and Sting was a train wreck waiting to happen too, Sting has the guts of a year off only for Hogan to put him out again? Borden must have had a field day with all that paid holiday time! No wonder he got lazy in later years.

As for why WCW died, I think the politics was just ridiculous with stale, overpaid veterans hogging the limelight and not letting the young talent shine. Look at the guys they had at their disposal. Benoit, Jericho, Guerrero, Malenko, Mysterio etc. I also think the arrival of Russo was the nail in the coffin. The stuff he came up with was just woeful.

Again i couldn't agree more. Management dropped the ball, With Goldberg being the only newer talent getting any kind of push. They did their best to hang onto Benoit at the end by giving him the big one but it was too late.

I think the difference between WWE and WCW was that in Vince McMahon the WWE had a great captain who could steer the ship through some rocky storms whereas with WCW, it was a case of rats deserting a sinking ship. I'm thinking of those guys on guaranteed contracts content to do F all and collect a paycheque.

McMahon had a lot more experience, Bischoff's prior experience was being a coffee boy for Verne Gagne. WCW did have guys that would bust their ass, the cruiserweights, Flair, Sting etc. But it was all in vain.

VR!

MikeHoncho

Really enjoyed it. I thought Bischoff came accross really well. He is a very charismatic person and you could see that despite the fact everyone in the room had every reason in the world to hate the guy they still quite liked him. He was very humble, owned up to his mistakes but fought his corner when he needed to. I still think he has something to offer this business. He would certainly make a better GM for Smackdown than Vicki Guerrero.

SuperWoody101

I enjoyed it. Thanks for posting the link Vince.

Vince135792003

After shows like this one, I really wish I could get WWE 24/7.

krudler

wrestling needs more things like this,frank discussions about thngs not history altering dvds, am i the only one who really likes eric bischoff? he was painted as the antichrist by the fanboys during the 90s but hes a smart guy who really knew how to market wrestling,imo the attitude era came about because of bischoff and paul heyman,not vince

ShawnRaven

I'm a Bischoff fan, i'm the first to admit his shortcomings, but i'll also be the first to admit that without the competition it provided for WWE. WWE certainly wouldn't have churned out the entertaining TV that it has done when it did.

Even Vince McMahon's family have admitted that competition has been the big thing that has been missing since the buyout of WCW.

VR!

krudler

it was vinces ego that ruined the invasion angle, he could have kept wcw as a completely seperate entity, and ran the angles with guys showing up on each others tv shows, but no, he had to make wcw talent look like jobbers aside from a few guys who were already over with the crowd, it was mostly wcw midcarders who were with them when the invasion was on though, if the nWo, goldberg and a few other guys had been there from the start it would have been a much different angle

ShawnRaven

krudler wrote:

it was vinces ego that ruined the invasion angle, he could have kept wcw as a completely seperate entity, and ran the angles with guys showing up on each others tv shows, but no, he had to make wcw talent look like jobbers aside from a few guys who were already over with the crowd, it was mostly wcw midcarders who were with them when the invasion was on though, if the nWo, goldberg and a few other guys had been there from the start it would have been a much different angle

Not this again. It's been done already before. You can't blame Vince that Bischoff offered the likes of Sting, Hogan, Goldberg, Nash and Hall guaranteed contracts. Nor could you blame him that neither of the above wanted to budge when they were being paid for doing didly squat.

You can blame Undertaker for burying DDP, Kanyon and Kronik, he didn't want to work with them in the first place. In fact he was the one who suggested to Vince that Adams and Clark (a good friend of Takers incidently) to go to OVW to learn how to work "WWE style", which i found amusing as Adams had actually gotten to WWE months before Calloway in 1991!

So lets be serious please!
VR!

rossie1977

^^^ yes but vince could have been handled WCW a hell of a lot better than he did, ditto NWO (he turned them into rock and austins bitc*es).

clarke and adams weren't really part of the invasion angle as far as i remember, the only reason they got a try out was because they were good buddies of calaway.

ShawnRaven

rossie1977 wrote:

^^^ yes but vince could have been handled WCW a hell of a lot better than he did, ditto NWO (he turned them into rock and austins bitc*es).

clarke and adams weren't really part of the invasion angle as far as i remember, the only reason they got a try out was because they were good buddies of calaway.

Yeah, and pairing them with ECW mutant Richards, made no sense! Nobody gave a rats about Right To Censor anyway.

I will admit too that Vince could have handled the Invasion angle better than he did, hell, he'll admit that himself. In my honest opinion, he rushed into it with no planning whatsoever. Throwing Shane and Stephanie into that angle also pissed all over the whole damn thing.

VR!

rossie1977

right to censor had the best entrance music ever

Stephanie should never have been let near my tv in the first place :mad:

ShawnRaven

To be fair, i actually enjoyed Steph as GM in 2002, her and Bischoff trying to one-up each other was actually amusing

VR!

Vince135792003

validreasoning! wrote:

I will admit too that Vince could have handled the Invasion angle better than he did, hell, he'll admit that himself. In my honest opinion, he rushed into it with no planning whatsoever. Throwing Shane and Stephanie into that angle also pissed all over the whole damn thing.

VR!

I''m not so sure he would admit it. Meltzer laid out to him how historically others have successfully done the invasion angle and that he needed to make WCW look strong. Vince never spoke to him again. He just didn't get it.

ShawnRaven

He mentions on the McMahon DVD that at the time, it seemed pretty much like a good idea, but looking back he probably didn't do either WCW or ECW any favours. Or words to that effect. For what that's worth now.

VR!

Vince135792003

Does he? I have that dvd and I don't remember him saying that about WCW. It's not the kind of dvd I'd watch again though so I could have forgotten

ShawnRaven

Vince135792003 wrote:

Does he? I have that dvd and I don't remember him saying that about WCW. It's not the kind of dvd I'd watch again though so I could have forgotten

It could also have been the rise and fall of ECW too, but i know he does mention it on one of those DVDs regarding the invasion angle.

VR!

krudler

just watched all 5 parts of that video, excellent stuff pity the wwe doesnt do more of them, its such a pity bischoff is gone he was great as gm, as entertaining as regal is he should be on smackdown since teddy long sucks and vickie guerrero shouldnt be left anywhere near a microphone

fatal

Im still watching it and its great so far.Another 3 parts to go.
I also am a Eric Bischoff fan.I would still love to see him around today in some shape or form on a WWE show.
Alot of people hate the guy but no one can deny that he sure stamped his name into wrestling history in so many ways

By the way im currently reading his book and for anyone that hasn't read it,you should check it out,its certainly an interesting read

Vince135792003

fatal wrote:

By the way im currently reading his book and for anyone that hasn't read it,you should check it out,its certainly an interesting read

I like Eric too but the book is seemingly full of inaccuracies. It mightn't be intentional. I get the impression he may have been living hard back then and his memory could be shot.

chopperbyrne

He's very honest in that book.

His interview with JBL is good too. It's probably on dailymotion somewhere.

Vince135792003

I need to read it to get a proper perspective. And anyone who thinks he's being completely honest needs to read the 2/3 issues last December of the Observer.

Gillie

Really enjoyed this video.
Was interested when they brought up the "butts in seats" liine with Eric and Mick there!

Good find!

Vince135792003

I hope they find a way to brink WWE 24/7 to the UK/Irish market. I think their'd be people willing to pay for it over here.

Fozzy

I've only found the time to watch half of this so far, it's a unique discussion

I'm not totally sure, but I think you can get WWE 24/7 Online on your computer here. It doesn't have as much programming as the tv version has, but it still has a good selection. Remember about two years ago they offered it free for a month?

Vince135792003

Fozzy wrote: »

I'm not totally sure, but I think you can get WWE 24/7 Online on your computer here.

It's not really the same thing. I got it there for a while. Like you said, the net version isn't bad in that it offers alot of matches but the tv version has more shows like this one and another 1 called "MSG classics" which from reports looks great too.

ShawnRaven

Vince135792003 wrote: »

It's not really the same thing. I got it there for a while. Like you said, the net version isn't bad in that it offers alot of matches but the tv version has more shows like this one and another 1 called "MSG classics" which from reports looks great too.

Yeah, i got a few of the MSG and Boston Garden house shows from it from the 88-91 period. Some really good stuff on it actually.

VR!

Vince135792003

Just had a quick look at WWE 24/7 online. Its definitely improved with some documentary pieces and full videos of old Monday night raws. Not bad for 4 dollars a month.

john concannon

foley with the exception of his title win said nothing .it was like a three way arguement with bisch,j.r,hayes

ec18

who was hayes?

Vince135792003

ec18 wrote: »

who was hayes?

I feel old.

Fozzy

ec18 wrote: »

who was hayes?

He was in the Fabulous Freebirds, legendary stable. Terry Gordy and Buddy Jack Roberts were the other members. Hayes was their mouthpiece, one of the best back in the day. He's worked backstage in WWE for years now

Oh yeah, you might remember him as the Hardy Boys manager too

Vince135792003

Fozzy wrote: »

He was in the Fabulous Freebirds, legendary stable. Terry Gordy and Buddy Jack Roberts were the other members. Hayes was their mouthpiece, one of the best back in the day. He's worked backstage in WWE for years now

Oh yeah, you might remember him as the Hardy Boys manager too

How could you not mention his Handsome Doc Hendrix days on Livewire?!

Fozzy

Vince135792003 wrote: »

How could you not mention his Handsome Doc Hendrix days on Livewire?!

Because I've disliked him ever since I saw him on that show

I was actually watching a match a while ago, Dusty Rhodes vs someone that I feel really stupid for forgetting, in a cage. Michael Hayes was some sort of enforcer, helping out the ref. But he pissed me off so much in the match. He just kept drawing attention to himself when he really shouldn't have until the end

Vince135792003

Fozzy wrote: »

Because I've disliked him ever since I saw him on that show

You disliked him!?!? You mustn't have lived though the Todd Petingil era? I couldn't stand him.

Fozzy

Nope, I only started watching wrestling again after Petingil was gone!

No wonder I couldn't remember who Dusty was facing in that cage match, it was Flair vs Kerry Von Erich. Great match, but Hayes was the cause of all my dicontentment

rossie1977

oh good god, todd pettengill, how could anyone forget that fine example of a broadcast journalist That joker was earning 6 figures back in the 1990s and when vince asked him to take a slight pay-cut, he walked, the wwe has never been as good without him :cool:

what was the name of that girl with the buck teeth who used to co-host alongside him circa 1994, she was even worse than him and i bet earning six figures too :eek:

ec18

around what time would he have been the hardyz manager??

ShawnRaven

He was their first manager in 1999. They then turned heel on him to join Gangrel to be a part of the New Brood.

VR!

ec18

i've a vague recollection of the new brood....I feel so young now

Mr.Nice Guy

I liked Hayes' work as a commentator. He used to do Heat on occasion and some of the other lesser shows. I thought he was decent.

Vince135792003

rossie1977 wrote: »

what was the name of that girl with the buck teeth who used to co-host alongside him circa 1994, she was even worse than him and i bet earning six figures too :eek:

Stephanie something I think.

ShawnRaven

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Stephanie something I think.

Oh god, Stephanie Wiand! (sp?)
How i did my level best to forget about her. Thanks dude, thanks a bunch!

VR!

HorseRadish

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Stephanie something I think.

Stephanie Wiand. God I'm getting old :eek: