Cabinet decision next week - Freedom of movement or not

a bientot

It has to be YES to SCHENGEN
The report in the Irish Times today on the future of internal security within the E.U. makes it very clear that Ireland will be left out on its own with the Queen and her esteemed subjects on the neighbouring island and in Northern Ireland if it fails to take the right decision next week.

The original Schengen group and its added 'muscle' women and men from the 'new' E.U. states, who are set to join in early December, have made it clear to Dublin that this state's Department of Justice will not have access to the major Schengen database if Ireland is not a full and active member of Schengen and by extension accepts the principal of real freedom of movement of citizens and residents of the European Union.
As travellers to Spain will have noted all flights from Ireland are treated as arrivals from a foreign country and this process is being extended to all countries within Schengen from early 2008. As most people know it is obligatory to seek permission from the Spanish Govcrnment before being allowed to board a flight to that country in the Schengen Territory.

How absurd .............thirty three years membership of the Union and we end up as third rate arrivals in Spain, having to beg for the right to land on their soil. We will soon be asked for our hotel address and how much money we have for our stay....

Dublin can and should no longer accept this unjust unequal treatment of its citizens and must make the right decision come what may....

Moriarty

Unless the UK agree to fully enter the schengen area, we won't be making any sort of move. Free movement between the UK and Ireland is seen as more important than the rest of the EU for a number of reasons.

mike65

Indeed, the sheer volume of traffic across the Irish Sea means no change.

Mike.

a bientot

a bientot wrote:

Dublin can and should no longer accept this unjust unequal treatment of its citizens and must make the right decision come what may....

Dublin considers the people in NI,it's citizens if they want to be aswell.Your plan would mean border posts and passports between Enniskillen and Swanlinbar.
Apart from being unworkable,it just ain't going to happen.Though I'm sure unionists would love it.

a bientot

Les pays d’Europe centrale intègrent Schengen en décembre
Malte et huit pays d’Europe de l’Est entrés dans l’UE en 2004 vont intégrer l’espace Schengen sans contrôle aux frontières à partir du 21 décembre, à temps pour les vacances de Noël, au lieu du 31 décembre comme prévu au départ, a indiqué mercredi dernier la présidence de l’UE.
Les 15 membres de l’espace Schengen actuel doivent prendre début novembre la décision formelle de lever les contrôles aux frontières avec les 10 Etats membres entrés dans l’UE en 2004, à l’exception de Chypre.
Au final, tous les pays de l’UE, sauf le Royaume-Uni, l’Irlande et Chypre, plus deux pays non membres, la Norvège et l’Islande, feront partie de l’espace Schengen.
from l'Economiste (Maroc)


It is amazing that the State (Government) would/will stand by and allow its citizens to be treated as third class beings on arrival in Poland, Czech republic etc as and from 21 December. These countries joined the Union in Ireland (former British colony but still linked in some way) on 1 May 2004 whereas we are in the Union since 1973.
How low to we have to descend as Europe mocks us....

The Schengen database contains the names of criminals and all undesirables entering the Territory and is only available to the authorities of full Schengen countries. Why should all Irish people be inputted in order to be cross checked? Undesirables may and do enter Ireland from abroad but Schengen will not let them into their territory thus placing Ireland in an embarrassing situation. Why were they permitted to enter Ireland?
From early 2008 all Schengen states will follow Spain in implying that each passenger is a suspect thug/criminal before she/he leaves Dublin airport....

Cows and sheep all have passports in order to cross the land border into the U.K. so what's the difference in dealing with human beings. I do appreciate that there is a United Ireland agenda that is dear to all Fianna Fail-Sinn Fein people but we did adopt the Euro in defiance of the Crown.

a bientot

For those who are not aware of Spain (Schengen's) decision on Irish arrivals.......

Before departing on a direct flight to Spain from anywhere in the world (except from another Schengen country) you have to supply for inputting to the SIS basic details (API) from your passport.
Spain, in theory, can then decide whether you are welcome or not.
On arrival on Spanish (Schengen) territory you go through the usual procedure as applied in other Schengen countries (and in Ireland on return). On submitting one's passport for control to a Schengen official you are, in effect, politely and in legal terms seeking permission to land and to 'pass freely and without hindrance' in Spain and in fourteen other countries with no further border controls. On exiting from any Schengen country back to Ireland or to any other non Schengen country in the world you have to seek permission to leave by the same process: passport control.

We should not ignore the SIS and the gravity of having our details imputted into this database that is now accesible to twenty-four countries including two that are not even in the Union.
It is flagrant discrimination against us as old Europeans and in my very humble opinion totally unacceptable. Those travelling within the Schengen Zone do not suffer this indignity, obviously.
But why do so few people care?
Is anyone prepared to take on Spain at Dublin airport?

Further information on Schengen developments this past week via google or other search engine (English and other languages)

lostexpectation

a bientot wrote:

It has to be YES to SCHENGEN
The report in the Irish Times today on the future of internal security within the E.U. makes it very clear that Ireland will be left out on its own with the Queen and her esteemed subjects on the neighbouring island and in Northern Ireland if it fails to take the right decision next week.

The original Schengen group and its added 'muscle' women and men from the 'new' E.U. states, who are set to join in early December, have made it clear to Dublin that this state's Department of Justice will not have access to the major Schengen database if Ireland is not a full and active member of Schengen and by extension accepts the principal of real freedom of movement of citizens and residents of the European Union.
As travellers to Spain will have noted all flights from Ireland are treated as arrivals from a foreign country and this process is being extended to all countries within Schengen from early 2008. As most people know it is obligatory to seek permission from the Spanish Govcrnment before being allowed to board a flight to that country in the Schengen Territory.

How absurd .............thirty three years membership of the Union and we end up as third rate arrivals in Spain, having to beg for the right to land on their soil. We will soon be asked for our hotel address and how much money we have for our stay....

Dublin can and should no longer accept this unjust unequal treatment of its citizens and must make the right decision come what may....

that could be a reason to get rid of those rules rather then vote for even more big brother schengen

Unpossible

How absurd .............thirty three years membership of the Union and we end up as third rate arrivals in Spain, having to beg for the right to land on their soil. We will soon be asked for our hotel address and how much money we have for our stay....

As I understand it we just have to show our passport instead of any form of ID (as done in the schengen area). Everytime I travel home (from Finland, a schengen country) I have to show my passport anyway so I am not worried.

I guess the rule that EU citizens have the same rights in EU countries as the citizens from those countries will still apply (eg I have the same rights as a Finn over here).
Personally Ireland joining Schengen will mean my wife can go there freely so I would see that as a definite plus, but if the UK doesn't join then we might have to give up our free trade area with them which could cost us more in the future.

silverharp

a bientot wrote:

It has to be YES to SCHENGEN


have made it clear to Dublin that this state's Department of Justice will not have access to the major Schengen database if Ireland is not a full and active member of Schengen and by extension accepts the principal of real freedom of movement of citizens and residents of the European Union.

is this the way the EU is going to behave going forward, put up or shut up. What threats are going to be made against Ireland if we vote down any future treaties.

Moriarty

a bientot wrote:

For those who are not aware of Spain (Schengen's) decision on Irish arrivals.......

Before departing on a direct flight to Spain from anywhere in the world (except from another Schengen country) you have to supply for inputting to the SIS basic details (API) from your passport.
Spain, in theory, can then decide whether you are welcome or not.
On arrival on Spanish (Schengen) territory you go through the usual procedure as applied in other Schengen countries (and in Ireland on return). On submitting one's passport for control to a Schengen official you are, in effect, politely and in legal terms seeking permission to land and to 'pass freely and without hindrance' in Spain and in fourteen other countries with no further border controls. On exiting from any Schengen country back to Ireland or to any other non Schengen country in the world you have to seek permission to leave by the same process: passport control.

We should not ignore the SIS and the gravity of having our details imputted into this database that is now accesible to twenty-four countries including two that are not even in the Union.
It is flagrant discrimination against us as old Europeans and in my very humble opinion totally unacceptable. Those travelling within the Schengen Zone do not suffer this indignity, obviously.
But why do so few people care?
Is anyone prepared to take on Spain at Dublin airport?

Further information on Schengen developments this past week via google or other search engine (English and other languages)

Unless I'm seriously mistaken it would still be illegal for Spain (or any other EU country) to refuse entry to an Irish citizen due to the right of free movment of EU citizens. So effectively what being outside schengen means to us is that we need to provide a passport at passport control to prove we are Irish citizens. I really don't see that as much of an issue.

silverharp

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.1741454.0.0.php
UK 2017: under surveillance


have a look at this article for one possible future in boarder crossing

Victor

a bientot wrote:

Why should all Irish people be inputted in order to be cross checked?

What makes you think they aren't already?

You do know that passposts are routinely swiped (hence barcodes and machine readable passports) or scanned by airlines, airport security and immigration?

a bientot

There is a big difference between using a device to check/match a name -as Air France does at Dublin airport- and taking specific defined information from a passport and then transmitting it to a central database in Schengen.

The Schengenites have made it clear that they will not interest themselves in checking anyone crossing any internal Schengen border. The real problem is getting into Schengen from outsdie the 15 + 9. One can never say one is travelling to a particular country in this context. One is travelling and landing in a Schengen territory/zone and then one is in the country and free to roam far and wide.
This is where the problem lies and only the internal Schengen residents can really say that they have (real) freedom of movement.

All outsiders have to be treated the same even if they are travelling from a fellow European Community country. It is a 'them and us' situation.
Add to that the mistrust that the mainlanders feel for us.....as we cannot control our own borders.

Unpossible

So when is this vote taking place? If carried when will it be implemented?

Are the UK also reconsidering their stance on Schengen?

Unpossible

Sorry for bumping this topic, but its something which affects me personally. I have not found any mention of this topic on RTEs website, could anyone provide a link to this story?

sceptre

a bientot wrote: »

It is amazing that the State (Government) would/will stand by and allow its citizens to be treated as third class beings on arrival in Poland, Czech republic etc as and from 21 December.

No it isn't. They're not going to do anything that would require use of a passport to visit the UK. Nice and simple. I rather like the idea of us joining Schengen but it would be amazing if the UK didn't and we did.

a bientot

Standby for a major announcement re Schengen on Tuesday from Bruxelles.....
The government and people of Ireland may not be too happy with the new measures..............
But will the proper decision be made thus giving up the Dublin United Ireland campaign (otherwise known as Belfast/Good Friday/Belfast Agreement).................