New Build Heating Eco System?

Villain

Well my full planning is in so I'm at the Legal stage of getting the site signed over with Mortgage etc.

So I've began looking for prices and idea's for certain aspects of the build. Mainly I have been looking at ICF build's and I got a quote of €16,000 to supply and fit Kore ICF thats excluding the concrete, and then you will have to use the expensive Arcylic render on the external walls. I went to the Building Expo in the RDS and I seen the M2 Emmedue system which a company in Offaly supply and it looks good and it has the IAB certs to keep the sign off simple.

The M2 system uses an ICF type block but has a steel mesh built in which allows for a sand/cement plaster to be sprayed on external finish, I've been in contact with them and they are to get back to me with quotes.

If I can afford to go ICF then I am very interested in a HRV system i.e. make the house air tight and use a HRV for ventilation and heat, now what I want to know is my following idea, A: Workable, B Sensible given location house type etc, C: Cost effective

I want to use a HRV system along with Solar panels for heating a water tank, now I also want to put a Wind Turbine up so that in theory the only fuel my heating system will require is electricity i.e. immersion for the HRV system if a cold snap hits and immersion for heating water when the solar panels aren't able to supply enough heat, 60%-70% of my electricity will be generated by wind and the solar will heat 60%-70% of my hot water needs for a year. Thus reducing the impact of price hikes in oil or wood pellets.

Now I know a HRV system will cost me in the region of 5k to 10k with grant of 1-2k availble and then solar will cost in region of 5k with grant of 800 roughly and then wind turbine will cost 5-9k with no grant, these figures are guesstimates based on reading of
previous people's experience.

Can anyone answer my questions and don't be afraid to say the idea is crazy it may well be I don't have much knowledge in this area.

Cheers.

ircoha

irish1 wrote:

Well my full planning is in so I'm at the Legal stage of getting the site signed over with Mortgage etc.

So I've began looking for prices and idea's for certain aspects of the build. Mainly I have been looking at ICF build's and I got a quote of €16,000 to supply and fit Kore ICF thats excluding the concrete, and then you will have to use the expensive Arcylic render on the external walls. I went to the Building Expo in the RDS and I seen the M2 Emmedue system which a company in Offaly supply and it looks good and it has the IAB certs to keep the sign off simple.

The M2 system uses an ICF type block but has a steel mesh built in which allows for a sand/cement plaster to be sprayed on external finish, I've been in contact with them and they are to get back to me with quotes.

If I can afford to go ICF then I am very interested in a HRV system i.e. make the house air tight and use a HRV for ventilation and heat, now what I want to know is my following idea, A: Workable, B Sensible given location house type etc, C: Cost effective

I want to use a HRV system along with Solar panels for heating a water tank, now I also want to put a Wind Turbine up so that in theory the only fuel my heating system will require is electricity i.e. immersion for the HRV system if a cold snap hits and immersion for heating water when the solar panels aren't able to supply enough heat, 60%-70% of my electricity will be generated by wind and the solar will heat 60%-70% of my hot water needs for a year. Thus reducing the impact of price hikes in oil or wood pellets.

Now I know a HRV system will cost me in the region of 5k to 10k with grant of 1-2k availble and then solar will cost in region of 5k with grant of 800 roughly and then wind turbine will cost 5-9k with no grant, these figures are guesstimates based on reading of
previous people's experience.

Can anyone answer my questions and don't be afraid to say the idea is crazy it may well be I don't have much knowledge in this area.

Cheers.

How did u arrive at that number and what sort of battery set up have u got in mind for this?

where are u located: top of C. Patrick?

How are u going to cook/ wash clothes/dry clothes/wash dishes?

These all take c 2kw/h so I wonder about the storage.

The other point is that the batteries will only provide half their rated capacity and have a life of 3 - 5 years max

If you have the room think about providing a water-filled heat sump [2 to 5 thousand gallons] to collect the extra heat gened by the solar panels which can then be reused.

CJhaughey

Heat Recovery Ventilation doesn't heat the air unless you have a inline heat source.
It recovers the heat from the exhaust air and uses it to heat the incoming air.
Solar is good for Domestic Hot Water but only for ~6mths or so, you will still need to use electric or another heat source for DHW in the winter months and in cloudy weather (this summer!)
I have both HRV and Solar and TBH if you build the house right and insulate properly you will not need to use much electricity to keep the house at a good temp.
IMO forget wind as a source of any kind of power to heat water, it is marginal for lighting with incandescent lights and only makes sense with a big battery bank and low energy everything in the house.
Is there a reason that you want to go ICF rather than TF?
There is no grant for HRV, Solar reduced grant and TBH I don't know if there will be any grants paid for a while looking at the mess the SEI has made!
HRV is still IMO one of the best things you can do to a house apart from insulating properly.

Villain

ircoha wrote:

How did u arrive at that number and what sort of battery set up have u got in mind for this?

where are u located: top of C. Patrick?

How are u going to cook/ wash clothes/dry clothes/wash dishes?

These all take c 2kw/h so I wonder about the storage.

The other point is that the batteries will only provide half their rated capacity and have a life of 3 - 5 years max

If you have the room think about providing a water-filled heat sump [2 to 5 thousand gallons] to collect the extra heat gened by the solar panels which can then be reused.

I was speaking to some companies recently and they reckoned that an average house uses 2700-3500 kw a year so one wind system I looked at said it would produce 60%-70% of that and if you were near the coast it could product nearer to 95%, this was sale speak but some reading I did seems to suggest that is possible.

Sorry I should have stated where the site is, its in Carlow same as my location.

I will use electricity from ESB to cook/wash clothes/dry clothes/wash dishes etc

Villain

CJhaughey wrote:

Heat Recovery Ventilation doesn't heat the air unless you have a inline heat source.
It recovers the heat from the exhaust air and uses it to heat the incoming air.
Solar is good for Domestic Hot Water but only for ~6mths or so, you will still need to use electric or another heat source for DHW in the winter months and in cloudy weather (this summer!)
I have both HRV and Solar and TBH if you build the house right and insulate properly you will not need to use much electricity to keep the house at a good temp.

How much electricity (cost) do you think a HRV systems uses a year when the weather is very cold does it use a lot of electricity?

Also do you have any other heating source? i.e. do you have rads?

CJhaughey wrote:

IMO forget wind as a source of any kind of power to heat water, it is marginal for lighting with incandescent lights and only makes sense with a big battery bank and low energy everything in the house.
Is there a reason that you want to go ICF rather than TF?
There is no grant for HRV, Solar reduced grant and TBH I don't know if there will be any grants paid for a while looking at the mess the SEI has made!
HRV is still IMO one of the best things you can do to a house apart from insulating properly.

Well I was only thinking of wind, not sure it is worth going with but I'm only at the research stage so considering everything at the minute.

ICF is the strongest type of building I have ever seen, they use it in hurricane areas in the US and if its done properly the U value can be as good as insulated TF house, I don't have anything against TF and I think if you go into a timber frame company and pick a design they have used in the past you can get a good product however I have seen one-off houses that went timber frame and it hasn't worked out well, the quality of erection and design of timber supports were weak and the cost was more than icf or blocks.

I really like HRV but I don't know whether I can rely on it for heating all year round especially of a sudden cold snap hits do I need rad's and oil as backup?

Thanks for the info

ircoha

irish1 wrote:

I was speaking to some companies recently and they reckoned that an average house uses 2700-3500 kw a year so one wind system I looked at said it would produce 60%-70% of that and if you were near the coast it could product nearer to 95%, this was sale speak but some reading I did seems to suggest that is possible.

Sorry I should have stated where the site is, its in Carlow same as my location.

I will use electricity from ESB to cook/wash clothes/dry clothes/wash dishes etc

then what is the wind for: lighting?

u need to do more independent research on the wind issue
start with this
http://www.met.ie/climate/wind.asp

Villain

The wind is to reduce ESB bill by up to 60% to 70% which as you say needs to be researched, I'd be very interested to hear what people have to say that have a wind turbine and I mean a decent one I'm not talking about the small ones you can buy on the net.

CJhaughey

I will say it again, HRV is not a heating system.
HRV only recovers the heat already in the house.
You still need a heat source in the first place, be that passive solar, woodburner, oil etc etc etc
I have a Scanhome and I used to use electric UFH as a heat source but this summer I have installed a small woodburner and I will see if I can supply all the heat the house needs from this alone.
I seriously doubt that any wind turbine that costs only 5-9k will supply anything like what the salesman is claiming.
I have a friend who has a Proven turbine , cost 19k + batteries and control system and he has to use low energy everything in order to survive and even then it's close on a calm day.

s2_ireland

Hi CJ,
If I may...
Strictly speaking you are correct when you say that HRV is not a heating system. It is possible however to add more heat to the prewarmed incoming fresh air & thereby provide the complete space heating. This can be done by installing a water coil or electrical coil in the ducting system (or integrated into the HRV unit). This removes the need for a conventional heating distribution system. Hot water at 80 deg C can be provided by a wood pellet stove etc etc. Good controls are very important & high quality build as per scanhome or similar is crucial.

S

CJhaughey

s2_ireland wrote: »

Hi CJ,
If I may...
Strictly speaking you are correct when you say that HRV is not a heating system. It is possible however to add more heat to the prewarmed incoming fresh air & thereby provide the complete space heating. This can be done by installing a water coil or electrical coil in the ducting system (or integrated into the HRV unit). This removes the need for a conventional heating distribution system. Hot water at 80 deg C can be provided by a wood pellet stove etc etc. Good controls are very important & high quality build as per scanhome or similar is crucial.

S

You may indeed...
But please read post #3 above where I explained that you still need an inline heater.
I have a scanhome....

Builderfromhell

Like many posters here I am constantly investigating alternative building systems and heating systems. My current thinking is that the best way to go is;
1. Timber frame, prices are dropping now with competition. Better house for many reasons. see other posts.
2. Insulate as much as possible. At least double Building regs. requirement.
3. Ensure air tightness.
4. Idellay have glazing facing south, few windows to North.
5. Wood burning stove to protect against future energy shocks.
Solar panels to heat water.
6. HRV, Heat recovery ventilation.
7. Oil fired Condensing boiler for now. Low capital outlay initially compared with new so called eco systems.

INSULATE, INSULATE, INSULATE and the heating system becomes less relevant as you won't be using it much.

Until I learn otherwise, and I'm learning all the time, this is my current best build philosophy.

CJhaughey

That is pretty much it BFH, and you have more or less summed up a Scanhome.
The reason we decided on one was for all the reasons you listed above except for #7.
The efficiency of these houses has to be believed, it is not just the structure itself, the detail that is in them is also as critical especially for HRV systems and insulation.
We have had no heating on today but roasted a chicken and the house is 25 deg in the living room.
The scanhome uses a dry UFH system that eliminates the need for a boiler.
Of course if you build a passive house you won't need any heating apart from yourself and the appliances.

Builderfromhell

Fascinating. I'll google Scanhomes to learn a little. Thanks CJ.