No good at my career/job

LegacyUser

I don't know why I am posting this, it's not going to solve anything but here goes:
I am a 34 year old male who recently completed a five year degree in Software Development at one of the less than glamorous IT's in this country (I'd rather not say which one). I left a less than glamorous occupation (again I'd rather not say what) at the age of 29 to enroll in it.
I would have preferred to go to a better college but my poor Leaving Cert results prevented this.
I didn't quite have the urge to re-sit my Leaving Cert to get myself into a better college!
I got a second class honours grade 2 in my final degree.
I started off quite well in the course and had high hopes of getting a well-paid developer-type role when I finished. However my results started to slip as I got further into the course and this affected my confidence.
I went on work experience with a well-respected company and again I struggled. I wasn't kicked out or anything but I felt out of my depth or like I shouldn't be there. My confidence has suffered as a result.
I am writing this now because I just started my first job and it was a disaster. I was working for a guy who owns his own company and I lasted two days. He said I wasn't using my initiative in the job and we agreed to part ways (on less than amicable terms).
I personally thought he was a prick who expected miracles from me and that his expectations of me were too high but now I am not so sure.
Maybe he is right and I will never be good enough to work in my chosen field?
I drove home in a daze and I now am just in a sate of shock to be honest.
I wanted to get a degree because I thought I could do something better as a career but now my self-esteem is at rock bottom and I don't see myself applying for any further jobs as I have convinced my self I am totally thick.
I live at home with my parents and that makes me feel even worse. My (older) sister has made a hugely successful career for herself, I wanted to be as good too but now I feel like everything has fallen apart and I don't know what will happen to me.
This is pointless I know but thanks for reading it anyway.

togster

Its pointless unless you do something about it. This cycle of self-pit won't help you. You need a good kick up the arse tbh.

Anti

just because you have a degree it dosent mean you will get a great career. Thats something you have to work on, and like you said it was only your first job. I think you need to relax, and try for another job. And get your confidence back up.

Sleepy

A guy gave you the boot after two days in a grad position? Uh, what?

Apply somewhere they'll train you.

r3nu4l

Hiya nogood, my story might help you a bit. I have a PhD and decided to get out of research and into commercial enterprise. My primary motivation for this was a better career path and opportunities compared to lab based research.

I moved into the field of Medical Communications and worked for a top agency in London. Every day there was absolute hell. There was no support, plenty of backstabbing and a lot of people ready to sh!t on your work at the first opportunity. I later discovered that this attitude existed within my team and others in the company but not every team in the company! Anyway, as each day went by and I was constantly been told I was rubbish, not making the grade, my confidence slipped further and further.

Eventually, one day my manager and HR called me to a meeting and I was placed on a "Performance Improvement Plan"! I was disgusted. I made up my mind to leave the job straight away. I didn't bother trying to "improve" because part of me knew that I wasn't actually doing anything wrong. Ironically three-weeks into my plan I was informed by my manager and HR that they were very pleased at my progress and they felt that the plan would be a success for me :rolleyes:

I sat some interviews and was offered 2 jobs, took the higher paying one (3k more than I was on at that time!) and decided to put everything behind me. So I started my new job and within two months was handling my own projects without supervision. Within a year I had been given another 2k pay rise and a large bonus! My bosses are delighted with me and have said that if I'm ever thinking of leaving I should talk to them first to see if they can do anything to change my mind! I know I can't exactly name my price but it's a huge change from my last job. I enjoy this job, I'm happy, work less hours, am paid far more and am working well!

Some environments aren't as good as others, some jobs don't supply the training and/or support you need. Go easy on yourself, don't blame your education...Bill Gates dropped out of college and look at him! You need to know what your limitations are and remember in IT as with other industries, you have to constantly update your skills to stay on top.

bronte

Definitely look elsewhere op...write to companies you'd be interested in working for and let them know you want to learn the ropes and work your way up.
The guy you were working for didn't even give you a chance...how the hell could he decide you weren't right after two days.
It's a blessing you don't have him as a boss anymore.
Start at the beginning and work your way up...it'll regain the confidence too.

Good luck!

Cormster

Hello.
I understand that at present you may be feeling quite low about yourself and/or your job prospects. I am going to assume that the decision to sign up to do the software course was as a result of pull rather than push factors (eg. you thought it an interesting field to work in).
Its understandable when initially starting out after college to get a bit depressed on the jobs front, especially if they are not meeting your expectations or you feel that you are not meeting the expectations set. However, try not to despair. From working in IT myself, I find that it does take a bit of time to get settled in to the type of work (maybe it applies across the board?). try to brush yourself off and try another job. If possible, go for a job that will offer you some on-the-job training to help you in terms of skills and confidence. A mentoring programme will also do wonders in terms of getting you up and running. When going for interviews perhaps you can ask if the company does such things.
As regards your sisters success, fair play to her. however do not measure yourself by the pace or standards she has achieved. You have just started out in a new field (by the sounds of it) and it will take time to get going and achieve what your goals. You may may feel under pressure on this front, but try set out what you want short-, medium-, and long-term, work to achieve it and you will probably start to feel happier about yourself. I realise that may sound somewhat cliched but I feel it works.
I would suggest you look around somewhat on the job market to see whats going. If you can get talking to someone who has spent a few years in your area, you may well benefit from their advice.
I say all of the above as I have gone through similar. It is not easy, but you can do it. Thats not to say I'm the most successful around, but I do enjoy what I do and for the time being.
As regards the job that lasted 2 days, sometimes small companies expect the most out of people, and occasionally those expectations may be unrealistic for someone just out of college.
Feel free to PM me with questions if you wish, or post here.
Good luck with your endeavours.
Corm

ceidefields

Anybody who fires someone after two days isn't much of a manger or company owner if you ask me. Small companies tend to have this problem though.

You've done something great - went back to college and gotten a degree. It doesn't matter where you want or what your grade was. Nobody gives a sh1te about that. In a decent company, what matters most is your attitude and willingness to learn. Now that said, if you go in the door the first morning and you're scared sh1tless and sure that you're going to fail, then it'll become self-fulfilling. If you don't understand something, ask questions. Most managers would prefer that you're clear about what needs to be done.

Hang in there, most people have to work their way through a few terrible jobs before they hit the right one.

seamus

Sleepy wrote:

A guy gave you the boot after two days in a grad position? Uh, what?

Apply somewhere they'll train you.

^^ What he said.

If you're looking for a glamorous job, then I.T. isn't the place to find it

Graduate positions, particularly in programming, are hand-holding affairs. The guy who hired you sounds like he wanted someone to cheaply handle his work for him, without the need to give you a hand. It doesn't work like that in software development. In fact, I would argue that nobody goes from college into any job and is flying after two days. College is the foundation of your knowledge, not the sum of it. Any good employer knows this.
Any good employer will give you at least a month to settle in, and a further month to get up to a decent productive level.

It sounds like you're probably going from bad job to bad job, which is never good for your self-esteem. If there's not good morale in your workplace, then your own confidence takes a hit.

Work experience programmes can be daunting because you're only getting a snapshot of what the work is like and your knowledge probably isn't 100% up to scratch. I'm curious as to whether they told you that you weren't up to scratch, or you just felt overwhelmed yourself because you didn't understand everything.
As a grad, I'd be worried if you didn't feel out of your depth for a short while - otherwise you're not being challenged and you won't grow.

Apply to a graduate software programme with a proper big company. They invest time and money in you which should give you a proper idea of your abilities.

stovelid

Sleepy wrote:

A guy gave you the boot after two days in a grad position? Uh, what?

Apply somewhere they'll train you.

++

Sounds like he wanted an experienced developer on graduate wages.

A small company can be great if you have experience but like the others say, a big company with a proper training program is the way to go for now. Remember that everybody is lost when they start their first job, I remember it well.

Also if software development really isn't working out - although you should really wait and see - why not think of a slightly different role where you can still use your eduction, Q.A, Support, Sys Admin etc.

Knockoff Nige

I beleive than when you're physically able to do a job then there is nothign holding you back other than yourself. Bascially, you just have to do it your way. That is often very very different to how you are taught it. Practice things at home and establish a routine of doing small tasks. Keep practising at them. Its the small things that make it the hardest. Anything you dont know after taht is learnable.

If you have an interest in what you do, you should stick with it.

LegacyUser

'Looking back at my post, I am embarrassed with the amount of occurrences of the word "I" in it! I hate coming across like a self-obsessed pr***k.
Thanks for the encouraging words. Nobody has said they agree with me and said "yeah, you're right, you are a total muppet".
I know in my heart and soul I could be a success at the right kind of job. I got a degree, that didn't happen by accident so I must know something about IT.
I'm just like I said earlier, in a state of severe shock after my experience in that job. I think the boss was not reasonable, I worked pretty much on my own so there wasn't someone nearby I could ask if I wanted to know something.
I know getting the boot after two days in a grad position would be no big deal to most people (even though technically I didn't get fired). They would probably shrug it off but I am a confidence person and if things go badly I take it to heart.

stovelid wrote:

Sounds like he wanted an experienced developer on graduate wages.

Yes, I believe so. If I had done two or three years in the kind of work he was doing I would have been fine. All he did was run me through a few things for half an hour one day.

stovelid wrote:

A small company can be great if you have experience but like the others say, a big company with a proper training program is the way to go for now. Remember that everybody is lost when they start their first job, I remember it well.

You are right there, big companies have grad training courses, small companies usually don't.

The trouble is now I feel embarrassed with myself and from a position of being unsure I am now totally convinced of my own incompetence.'

jimmycrackcorm

OP, I work in IT management and I don't hire anyone without experience for some of the reasons you've mentioned. So basically you are in the same boat as every other software development graduate. In my experience it's no reflection on you but that its one thing to learn off course material for exams yet a totally different thing to be able to apply that knowledge in a real development environment.

Your mistake was in going into a small company that the owner runs directly. These guys simply see you as a huge cost and not as an asset. They want to get as much as humanly possible out of you. I've worked for many and lost out on salary raises, holidays, ungodly work hours, no pension, no health care, no paying for mileage or other expenses incurred as part of work, no christmas parties.... the list goes on. So consider yourself very lucky to have escaped that.

On the other hand I have hired one person because I recognised they had stepped up a mark by doing what you did in going back to college. However you need to simply start at the bottom in a good company and work hard. Believe me the rewards ( promotions, pay rises ) are there for those who work hard in development. Your exam results are irrelevant; I don't even bother looking at education qualifications in the CV's I review (6 to do tomorrow).

I think you have some blame to place on yourself for your predicament from what I read. You have very high expectations ( you want to emulate your sisters success ) and "and had high hopes of getting a well-paid developer-type role when I finished". That's fine as a goal but the fact is that even after five long years of study you have eventually arrived, like 95% of computer graduates, at the bottom rung of the ladder and it's going to be a tough climb.

So simply find the right company (large) who can accomodate fresh meat and work your balls off and you'll do well.

Dalfiatach

Everyone else has already said it, but:

Yer man that fired you after 2 days was a cowboy gombeen asshole trying to get someone to magically do all his IT work on the cheap. This country is full of them :mad:

I've been getting paid to write code for 12 years. What every junior programmer really, really, really needs is a good mentor. For the first 2 years or so you really, really need to be the junior on a team with wise old veterans who are willing to share. To tell old war stories, to share some of their old code, to sit down and teach you how to think problems through first instead of just charging off and churning out code, to give constructive advice on each small job you do and how you could have done it better with more experience.

Coding isn't easy. It takes a fair amount of native talent and a hell of a lot of hard experience to make a really good programmer. And you'll be constantly having to learn new languages and platforms for the rest of your career. And most of your managers will be clueless morons from Marketing :rolleyes: . It's definitely not for everybody. But it is hugely rewarding and satisfying. It's one of the most complex - entirely abstract and utterly practical at the same time - of all human activities, and you'll be one of a very rare breed indeed if you get good at it.

Ph34r 0ur 733t h4x0r 5k1ll5 :eek:

You went back to college and got the degree, and that is a hugely positive move in the eyes of decent employers. I'd much rather hire someone like you than some 18 yr old IT graduate. All you need now is to get a position in a team in a middling-to-large sized established company who have a substantial IT department (I've always found it more interesting, varied and rewarding working in IT in industry rather than in pure software houses myself, YMMV) where they intend to mentor and train you properly.

Oh, and in interviews, don't even mention Mr 2 Days. Not worth going there. Just say you have been looking for a company with a structured environment where you will be trained properly, as all your friends who work in IT said it was critical to be trained properly and learn how to do things right at the start of your career, but it's not easy finding a company where you will be joining an established team with veterans to learn from. Simple as.

LegacyUser

'I hear what you are all saying:coming straight out of college it's better to start at a large company that is used to taking on graduates every year and training them rather than being thrown in at the deep end working by yourself for one guy (like what happened to me).
However most of those are in Dublin and I don't want to go there so that limits my options when looking for jobs.
But from a pure psychological side of things I am wondering "is this really the way things are in the IT industry?" Is it full of arrogant assholes who put pressure on you and stress you out every day? If so, then maybe I'm not suited to this type of work and I've wasted five years of my life?
I am shocked by that reality and it's going to take a while for my confidence to come back (if it ever comes back). Maybe I'm just not mentally up to working in an environment where bosses pile pressure on you.
I don't want to be one of those wasters drifting through life never achieving anything. I just don't know anymore, maybe I've made a terrible mistake and should have stayed in my ****e job. I'm beginning to think I was fooling myself that I could be as good as other people.'

ibh

This isn't ground breaking advice or anything, but when i started work as a graduate engineer, my first boss told me that "you're not an engineer yet, but you're qualified enough to be one". This may sound like a put down, but it wasn't. He was right, even though i was well qualified i knew fcuk all about anything really. And because he knew this, i was given the opportunity to learn. The guy who only gave you 2 days was obviously a tool who couldn't be bothered spending the time to allow you to learn and become good at your job. I used to put great faith in bosses / supervisor's opinions on everything, but as you go on in work you will really see that they make as many fcuk-ups as everyone else.

Deadevil129

nogood wrote:

'
Yes, I believe so. If I had done two or three years in the kind of work he was doing I would have been fine. All he did was run me through a few things for half an hour one day.

Learn from past mistakes. I can't exactly preach as I'm only on my second job and only started college but my first employer decided to throw me in the deep end with zero training or introduction. I've made a point of asking any interviewer since, what sort of training or introduction to the company is given, if they say none, I'd run a mile, because I know I'm not able for something like that.

LegacyUser

Deadevil129 wrote:

I've made a point of asking any interviewer since, what sort of training or introduction to the company is given, if they say none, I'd run a mile, because I know I'm not able for something like that.

I am reluctant to ask something like that in an interview as it might give the impression that I am expecting them to spoon-feed me and I don't expect to be able to do my job.
The embarrassment I feel after that job is still there. It was a humiliation.

dudara

Deadevil129 wrote:

I've made a point of asking any interviewer since, what sort of training or introduction to the company is given, if they say none, I'd run a mile

I'd agree with this statement, though not for the reason that the poster gives. Jobs and job definitions change continuously these days so you have a responsibility to keep yourself informed and up to date. I would expect employers to invest time and money in keeping my skills current. It benefits both my employer and myself.

Raskolnikov

What exactly was the employer looking for from you that you weren't able to satisfy? Was the job too technical, or did it require technologies/abilities you didn't have?

I don't mean to be harsh, but maybe a career in I.T. isn't for you.

Knockoff Nige

nogood wrote:

I am reluctant to ask something like that in an interview as it might give the impression that I am expecting them to spoon-feed me and I don't expect to be able to do my job.
The embarrassment I feel after that job is still there. It was a humiliation.

You have to ask these questions though. Also, companies generally want employees to want to progress and move up. Training is vital for this to happen. If there is no training, they are a rubbish company.

Nolanger

Sounds like you did IT just to get a job. Do you actually like computers i.e. program code at home, read computing books and magazines, develop software in your spare time? If so then why do you want to work as an employee? Why not set up your own small IT business and work for yourself?

LegacyUser

'

Raskolnikov wrote:

What exactly was the employer looking for from you that you weren't able to satisfy? Was the job too technical, or did it require technologies/abilities you didn't have?

I don't mean to be harsh, but maybe a career in I.T. isn't for you.

He expected me to pick things up straight away and said I had to use my initiative and not rely on him all the time. I had to work things out for myself.
Also, he was very vague when asking me to do something, I was supposed to be able to read his mind I think. It wasn't a question of me lacking technical ability in any area as I didn't actually do any programming at all in my two days there.

Nolanger wrote:

Sounds like you did IT just to get a job. Do you actually like computers i.e. program code at home, read computing books and magazines, develop software in your spare time?

No, I did IT because I like it. While I've been looking for employment I've been reading a good few books on other programming languages to help broaden my horizons and give me more options in the jobs market.
I have an interest in IT for sure but I am only an average programmer, I kind of prefer messing around with hardware sometimes.
The problem is more in my head, I just don't rate myself and **** like that guy who I posted about only re-enforce that belief.

Nolanger wrote:

If so then why do you want to work as an employee? Why not set up your own small IT business and work for yourself?

I'd like to do that one day but people usually start up their own business after working in a company for a while first.'

Tobias Greeshman

nogood wrote:

I am writing this now because I just started my first job and it was a disaster. I was working for a guy who owns his own company and I lasted two days. He said I wasn't using my initiative in the job and we agreed to part ways (on less than amicable terms).

Were you even registered with this muppet for tax after two days? I seriously doubt it. Don't let one bad experience turn you off looking for a job.

I work as a software engineer myself, and after I left college with my degree four years ago and it was over five months before I could get any related work. So here's the advice a manager in one company told me: "Apply to every job you see on the recruitment websites, apply to jobs on companies websites, if you can, go into companies and hand in your cv, ask to see their IT manager and make sure they get a copy of your cv. Learn to be persistent."

Keep yourself up to date with the latest technologies, learn about the companies you go to for interviews, know their technologies.

Sleepy

OP, don't be so shaggin' hard on yourself. I'm nearly five years into my first post-college job (though I've had a few promotions since starting). I'm not a programmer but I'm in IT (working on a major FMS in a technical role). Where I work, virtually everyone starts in customer support. It's not quite sitting in Dell's customer support desk but it's not too many steps above it either. Even in that role, we don't expect anyone to pull their weight until about six months into their first year. Some pick it up quicker and most will be contributing to the team after about a month but it's a continuously evolving product line and there's a hell of a lot of it to learn.

I know it's not the same role but it might give you some sort of realistic expectations of yourself in the next job you land.

Firetrap

nogood wrote:

'I hear what you are all saying:coming straight out of college it's better to start at a large company that is used to taking on graduates every year and training them rather than being thrown in at the deep end working by yourself for one guy (like what happened to me).
However most of those are in Dublin and I don't want to go there so that limits my options when looking for jobs.

I can understand why you don't want to move to Dublin but maybe you shouldn't rule it out in the short term. Once you get experience under your belt, you can get a job closer to home.

Don't be so hard on yourself. It takes a lot of guts to go back to college as a mature student and that's something that could well work in your favour. I'm not sure anybody cares anymore where you go go college, just as long as your degree doesn't look like one of those fake ones you can buy on the internet

the_syco

OP, I work in Tech Support. I've been in the current place for a year and 3 days now, and tbh, I didn't feel my feet on the ground for the first few weeks. It's still weird when people come to me for advice:eek:

My point: it'll take a bit to get into the swing of things.

As for Dublin: get a room away fom the city centre, but which has public transport nearby,

The Corinthian

While I would agree with the general view that the employer of the two-day job was probably a bit of a cowboy, this experience is seemingly only one in a long list of similar experiences in your career and his criticism regarding your initiative did appear to, at least partially, add up for me.

Regardless of the work you do – IT, finance, street busker, whatever – initiative is both highly sought and highly important. Initiative does not mean that you are going to hit the ground running in your job, but it does mean that rather than quietly sitting in front of your PC without a clue as to what you have to do, you will get up and ask.

Any good manager will know that a graduate will require a lot of handholding when they start – indeed, any employee will require a certain period of handholding before they know how things work in any company. However handholding does not mean spoon-feeding and this is where you’ll get problems. If there is anything worse than someone not being able to do their job it is that they are not able to do their job and aren’t really making any effort at changing this.

In practical terms if you’re stuck or unsure, get up and ask (find a solution to or a way around the problem), don’t sit there scratching your head for the week and wait for your manager to eventually come round to you and discover that you’ve essentially done nothing but sit there with your dick in your hand for the last few days.

From your description of your career, you do not appear to have been terribly proactive in many cases and this unfortunately this may well be the reason that your career in IT – and previously – has been lacklustre. I accept that this may ultimately be an unfair assessment of your character and situation, but there were a few things you wrote that pointed towards it, so I thought I might raise the possibility.

warrenaldo

I graduated 2 years ago from one of the less than glamarous IT company with a 2nd class honours degree also. I got offered a job in a development company (small enough) 10 developers.
For the first 2 weeks i was told to read up and look at our source code. To hear that you got sacked after 2 days is a disgrace.

After those first few weeks i was treated like i knew nothing (which in fairness i did not). But all of the ten developers working with me knew that the graduate that they were hiring would know nothing about develpment in the real world.

The things i learned in college was getting you familiar with the basics - while the skills i learned on the job made me a programmer.

I dont think you need to go to a big company. From all my college friends who got into development ive never heard anything like that after 2 days.

Anybody who hires a grad knows what there getting. Somebody who they can take on cheaply who they can train up.

Keep chin up and look elsewhere.

Also you dont need to be a great programmer to get into development. Theres tons of different areas. different skill levels.

Evil Phil

Raskolnikov wrote:

What exactly was the employer looking for from you that you weren't able to satisfy? Was the job too technical, or did it require technologies/abilities you didn't have?

I don't mean to be harsh, but maybe a career in I.T. isn't for you.

You can tell this after two days in a new career?! Jesus, two days into a new job I'm lucky if I know where the toilets are.

Every development graduate needs a mentor. This is because they are, and I speak from experience, next to useless (no offense OP). They are useless because of lack of experience, not lack of ability. Anyone who get an honours degree has some level of ability and with a good mentor they became useful very quickly.

OP You changed career at 29, a brave move, and got an honours degree in I.T. Good for you, I would recommend getting yourself into a company that has a graduate program and stick with them for a couple of years at least. At that point you'll have good experience and be able to start commanding better wages.

Having a previous career means you have previous work experience. Mightn't be relevent to software development but you're used to the responsibilities of an actual full-time job - that gives you an edge over the other graduates. Exploit it.

<edit>
Just read the TC's comment. Yeah, you do need to get up and ask. Bing able to turn around as ask 'Can you help?' is an important skill.

Nolanger

Worked for this guy a few years back as a programmer.
Got called into his office after 1 month where I immediately told him I was leaving - he said he was letting me go anyway - no reason given.

http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=156582&command=displayContent&sourceNode=156408&contentPK=18035187

LegacyUser

'I'm beginning to think this post should be in work & jobs! (Although I did initially post about the psychological effect this experience had on me.)
I'm starting to get over it now, in fact I went for an interview yesterday but the job is not really suitable either so I don't think I'd take it in the event of being offered it.
I'm just trying to get that terrible experience out of my head and be more positive although it isn't easy. Some people have posted saying that the guy I left after two days was correct in some respects (I'm sure he thinks so himself).
I agree you have to ask for help in a large company and not asking for help is something that will piss off any employer. However this guy made it plain he didn't want me asking him for help as he said it was "my job to take work off him ,not make more work for him".
Generally speaking most large companies expect graduates to know shag all and treat them accordingly for the first few weeks (or months even).
I found that out on work experience when my boss handed me a cd of Visual Studio and asked me did I know how to install it! (rolls eyes)
I suppose because I am 34 I don't want to go into a large multinational and be put on a graduate program where I will be treated like a 22 year old.
But then again I am scared of too much responsibility which comes with the territory when you want to move up in the world.'