Time to rebuild

hk797

Time to rebuild. dug up the Irish U21 panel beaten 47-19 by NZ in the U21 RWC three years ago. Outside of Jamie Heaslip none of the names register. where are the rest of of them now? also look how many of the kiwis have been brought thru. did'nt the Irish U18 side win the triple crown this season? lots of talent out there under new management to rebuild for the 2011 RWC.

Scorers: New Zealand: Tries: Koonwaiyou (3), Poff, Paulo, Gear. Pens: McAlister (3). Cons: McAlister (4). Ireland: Tries: Heaslip, Wickham. Pens: Steenson (2). Drop-goal: Steenson.

New Zealand: G Horton; T Koonwaiyou, B Atiga, L McAlister (capt), R Wulf; S Donald, T Morland; B Franks, J Pareanga, J Afoa, C Clarke, J Ryan, G Naoupu, J Kaino, J Poff. Subs: P Weepu for Morland 49mins, K Haiu for Clarke 61, M Tuu’u for Haiu 65, T Paulo for Pareanga 67, H Gear for Wulf 71.

Ireland: A Finn; R Lane, J Hearty, G Telford, P McKenzie; G Steenson, T O’Leary; J Wickham, D Fogarty, D Fitzpatrick, D Gannon (capt), S O’Connor, B O’Connor, J Heaslip, D O’Brien. Subs: B O’Donnell for O’Brien 72mins, C Geoghegan for Fogarty 75, O Hennessy for B O’Connor 77.

bugler

T O'Leary is playing for Munster. Unfortunately.

Jonny Wickham was a Leinster prop, never got a sniff of a run in the side, he is now retired from representative rugby far as I know.

D Fogarty is still at Munster. Can't throw though. Slight draw back for a hooker.

Gannon is at Connacht. Decent enough lock.


Shane O'Connor was released by Munster, don't know if he found another employer.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but only McAlister out of the NZ is in their squad for the WC. Afoa, Kaino, Weepu didn't make the squad despite being in or around it.

hk797

bugler wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but only McAlister out of the NZ is in their squad for the WC. Afoa, Kaino, Weepu didn't make the squad despite being in or around it.

thanks for the update bugler ... will keep an eye out for those lads now ... your correct about only mcalister making the RWC ... was just remarking that 4 of the NZ squad have been brought through the all blacks system since then ... whereas we have brought none from the side that made a RWC final speaks volumes imho ... when you dont bring through new blood you end up with what we had today ... a side that peaked last october with no new alternatives.

RJWIreland

For me there are a few positions for up grabs to be honest.

Forwards

The Front Row - needs some physically up front, I feel flannery is solid enough with the throws 9-10 but i don't feel he has the bulk but does provide little darting runs every now and then in the loose.

John Hayes hasn't got long left now so we will need to look at a new tighthead and loosehead as I don't think Marcus is good enough. I prefer him to be able to scrummage with intent rather than have the hand skills of a fly-half.

4- Another lock with POC, don't feel O'Callaghan is good enough but i hope he re-discovers his form and proves me wrong. Devin Toner at Leinster looks a good young prospect especially at 6ft 10 or Matt McCullough.

6- New blindside in 2/3 years as I dont think Easterby will be round much longer, I hope Neil Best fills this gap but I still feel Easterby can perform at international level but whether regularly is another factor.
What ever happened to Roger Wilson, he was tipped to be a big player for Ireland at No.8.
I think Wallace is good enough for 2/3 years at 7 but I hope Stephen Ferris and Shane Jennings(should have been in the squad) can put pressure on him.

8- Mr.Leamy hasn't been up to scratch or used his big powerful surges this WC like he has done, he's been flattened half the time. He still has time to re-discover this but I would like Jamie Heaslip to be in the frame soon. Anthony Foley was great at 8 and his physical presence is missed I feel. I've heard good things about this David Pollock lad but is he a no.8? I know he plays back row at least and he's just broke into the Ulster setup whether he's any good i dont know because I've drifted away from the domestic scene lately.
Whatever happened to Jonny O'Connor???

Backs


9- Stringer will most likely never play for Ireland again. I think giving Reddan more international exposure will be the key and I think he could be a good international with more experience. Boss' distribution is too slow for me.

10 - ROG has to go now. Tactical kicking was dreadful but he still shows glimpses of good flat passing to the backline i.e. murphy and BOD's tries today. Just feel a change is needed, That invention he use to feed to his backline has drifted away. He worked brilliantly with stringer and if they aren't functioning together I cant see them functioning with any other 9/10.
Would like to see Paddy Wallace have a few games with Reddan to see how that works because we need to experiment to find the right formula.
Niall O'Connor seems a good prospect at Ulster apparently, he's only 20 and there's time to harness this.
Jonny Sexton as well at Leinster is meant to be a mature, assured player already even at such a young age so that could be a future option.

11 & 14 - Two wing positions up for grabs. Dennis has retired but was a great servant to the Irish team. Horgan looks rusty after injury but i'm sure he will bounce back so hopefully he can keep 14. Sticking Murphy on the wing may be an idea as I feel he genuinely can create something from nothing and put Dempsey at full back.
The big player I feel will break on soon, Luke Fitzgerald What a talent, I feel he deserves to be around the setup and could be a big player for Ireland.
Rob Kearney is another who is a good prospect and I hope him and Luke can push themselves into the Senior setup.
Would have been good to see Carney play against Georgia as he's a proven try scorer at the top-level in RL and I think with only a few years left in him with more RU experience he could push for a spot in the side. Trimble on the wing - NO.

12 - D'Arcy seems to choke on the BIG BIG stage. That usual ruthless, rugged running of his wasn't breaking tackles and he looked quite frankly poor as he coffed up so much possession at the breakdown against Argentina and maybe a change is needed. Trimble was useful at 12 when he first came on the scene but I don't feel he's better than D'Arcy.
Names around the domestic that spring to mind are Barry Murphy and Darren Cave with development who could challenge for that inside centre shirt.

Well compared to you lot I probably know sod all but that's my opinion and everyone is entitled to one and that's what I feel is needed to revamp this Irish Squad.

RJWIreland

For me there are a few positions for up grabs to be honest.

Forwards

The Front Row - needs some physically up front, I feel flannery is solid enough with the throws 9-10 but i don't feel he has the bulk but does provide little darting runs every now and then in the loose.

John Hayes hasn't got long left now so we will need to look at a new tighthead and loosehead as I don't think Marcus is good enough. I prefer him to be able to scrummage with intent rather than have the hand skills of a fly-half.

4- Another lock with POC, don't feel O'Callaghan is good enough but i hope he re-discovers his form and proves me wrong. Devin Toner at Leinster looks a good young prospect especially at 6ft 10 or Matt McCullough.

6- New blindside in 2/3 years as I dont think Easterby will be round much longer, I hope Neil Best fills this gap but I still feel Easterby can perform at international level but whether regularly is another factor.
What ever happened to Roger Wilson, he was tipped to be a big player for Ireland at No.8.
I think Wallace is good enough for 2/3 years at 7 but I hope Stephen Ferris and Shane Jennings(should have been in the squad) can put pressure on him.

8- Mr.Leamy hasn't been up to scratch or used his big powerful surges this WC like he has done, he's been flattened half the time. He still has time to re-discover this but I would like Jamie Heaslip to be in the frame soon. Anthony Foley was great at 8 and his physical presence is missed I feel. I've heard good things about this David Pollock lad but is he a no.8? I know he plays back row at least and he's just broke into the Ulster setup whether he's any good i dont know because I've drifted away from the domestic scene lately.
Whatever happened to Jonny O'Connor???

Backs


9- Stringer will most likely never play for Ireland again. I think giving Reddan more international exposure will be the key and I think he could be a good international with more experience. Boss' distribution is too slow for me.

10 - ROG has to go now. Tactical kicking was dreadful but he still shows glimpses of good flat passing to the backline i.e. murphy and BOD's tries today. Just feel a change is needed, That invention he use to feed to his backline has drifted away. He worked brilliantly with stringer and if they aren't functioning together I cant see them functioning with any other 9/10.
Would like to see Paddy Wallace have a few games with Reddan to see how that works because we need to experiment to find the right formula.
Niall O'Connor seems a good prospect at Ulster apparently, he's only 20 and there's time to harness this.
Jonny Sexton as well at Leinster is meant to be a mature, assured player already even at such a young age so that could be a future option.

11 & 14 - Two wing positions up for grabs. Dennis has retired but was a great servant to the Irish team. Horgan looks rusty after injury but i'm sure he will bounce back so hopefully he can keep 14. Sticking Murphy on the wing may be an idea as I feel he genuinely can create something from nothing and put Dempsey at full back.
The big player I feel will break on soon, Luke Fitzgerald What a talent, I feel he deserves to be around the setup and could be a big player for Ireland.
Rob Kearney is another who is a good prospect and I hope him and Luke can push themselves into the Senior setup.
Would have been good to see Carney play against Georgia as he's a proven try scorer at the top-level in RL and I think with only a few years left in him with more RU experience he could push for a spot in the side. Trimble on the wing - NO.

12 - D'Arcy seems to choke on the BIG BIG stage. That usual ruthless, rugged running of his wasn't breaking tackles and he looked quite frankly poor as he coffed up so much possession at the breakdown against Argentina and maybe a change is needed. Trimble was useful at 12 when he first came on the scene but I don't feel he's better than D'Arcy.
Names around the domestic that spring to mind are Barry Murphy and Darren Cave with development who could challenge for that inside centre shirt.

Well compared to you lot I probably know sod all but that's my opinion and everyone is entitled to one and that's what I feel is needed to revamp this Irish Squad.

Redundo

A very unfair comment there on ROG. Yes, he had a terrible WC but a bad 6 months doesn't make him a bad player. I think once he is back playing Magners League with Munster and the pressure is off him he will come right again. That said he shouldn't be Irelands one and only choice for fly-half every single time. Paddy Wallace should be given a lot more opportunities to prove his worth in future.

ongarite

As mentioned on Newtalk and I completely agree, the last thing ROC needs is to jump right back in with Munster. He needs a long break out of the country to get his head together.
Warwick is doing fine with the ship in Munster for the moment.

ALH-06

Its because that goddamm Humphries won't retire! This country badly needs more choice at outhalf and the second best we have (apparently) - Wallace - doesn't even play domestic rugby in that position! It's absolutely insane!!!

I reckon Wallace is a good solid player with great handling skills. He's not a world class kicker tho, because he doesnt play outhalf for Ulster. Just doesnt have the match time or experience. Get out of the way Humphries - if you're not gonna play for your country when we need you then just retire and make way for Wallace as Ulster no. 10! The sooner the better...

hk797

RJWIreland wrote:

Whatever happened to Jonny O'Connor???

@RJWIreland ... Jonny O'Connor suffered spinal concussion in the opening minutes of WASPs Powergen Cup victory over Llanelli Scarlets back in 2006 ... he did not get back into the regular starting WASP VX the following season and signed for Connacht over the summer ... word has it that he is on the road back to his old self.

@ongarite ... second that on O Gara needing time out from the game for a month or two ... hopefully the Munster powers to be make it happen ... long term its the right thing for his career.

@Redundo and @ALH-06 agree that Wallace (and many other hopefuls) need to be bloodied and given game time in their respective positions from the provinces and in the upcoming 6N ... personally would have started Quinlan and Carney against Argentina ... their RL game plan of kicking long is something both know how to counter ... pity that Hickie and Horgan did not provide more support for Murphy ... should have been sorted out at half time by EOS ... definition of insanity comes to mind ... doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome

bugler

To rebuild:

The likes of Easterby and Stringer shouldn't be considered for Ireland again.

Trimble should be groomed as an IC. THe case for keeping Trimble as a wing is threadbare. Heaslip should be brought into the squad and look at working him in there with some game time. Leamy can be shifted to 6 if need be, otherwise Best can go there.

Jennings will hopefully find form at Leinster even though he won't be surrounded by such a big pack at his new home, but he can be groomed as the 7 for the future.

There are interesting angles from a provincial perspective too. Contepomi is blocking Sexton's way at Leinster. We could badly do with our best OH prospect getting meaningful experience. Horan is blocking Ireland's most promising young prop at Munster, and this probably won't change anytime soon. In Leinster, a raft of props have been signed which will probably mean Cian Healy gets little gametime this season.

DOC should find himself under pressure at Munster from Donncha Ryan (is he out injured now?), who is a far more dynamic player. Even David Wallace could find himself pressured by Niall Ronan, who is going very well so far. If Ronan can get regular gametime at Munster, he will find himself in the Irish squad.

We have a shít WC. We need to respond appropriately.

hk797

bugler wrote:

We have a shít WC. We need to respond appropriately.

Amen to that bugler ... less of the post mortems and more action is required now ... its time for a swift changing of the guard ... new coach, new captain, new caps ... nothing like a bit of competition to awaken those who have become complacent ... we have the talent ... give it a chance to bloom ... provinces need to be gotten on board to give the upcoming talent game time ... if they dont then hold back the funding ... time to rebuild

Killme00

hk797 wrote:

new captain,

I tend to agree but who stands out...noone in my mind

Saruman

We should give that black guy on the USA team citizenship... I would say he could leave even hickie for dust.

He made such an impression yesterday it seems he now has a wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takudzwa_Ngwenya

dub_skav

I don't think having retired internationals/foreign players in key positions at the provinces is the problem.
The problem is the unwillingness to select players not playing for the provinces.
This means that players would rather be 2nd choice with a province than going to England/Wales/France for game time. They know they have a better chance of playing for Ireland if they sit on a bench for Munster than starting for Llanelli/Bath.

This needs to change, another thing Eddie is answerable for.

GreenHell

By the next world cup we need to develop another viable option at out half, Wallce doesn't cut it. Ian Humphries might be one option. Tony Buckley and Darragh Hurley need to start getting HEC cup and international experience. We will always have talented backrows, its just getting them out there.

Back 3 also need a kick up the arse, I don't think trimble offers us anything other than solid on the wing, Hopefully Luke Fitz and Kearney will step up to the plate.

Still at a lose to explain how we will recover the world cup, put the biggest change needs to happen on top.

Saruman

dub_skav wrote:

I don't think having retired internationals/foreign players in key positions at the provinces is the problem.
The problem is the unwillingness to select players not playing for the provinces.
This means that players would rather be 2nd choice with a province than going to England/Wales/France for game time. They know they have a better chance of playing for Ireland if they sit on a bench for Munster than starting for Llanelli/Bath.

This needs to change, another thing Eddie is answerable for.

I did not know this was the case... sort of makes me mad now!

subfreq

Definitely both wings and First Five are priority for the back line. ROG is still a very good player but he wont be around for the next world cup so Sexton needs to get game time.

I'm not a Horgan fan and Trimble isn't a viable option. I agree with the post above that Trimble should be used as a center.

Stringer has most likely played his last meaningful part in Ireland's future and there are two very good players with contrasting games to fill the slot.

I don't really know the ages of the Forwards but it's all about getting enough experience for the new players if they are needed over the next four years. It's hard if they wont get a start for their province.

zAbbo

The argument could be made to groom Fitzgerald at OC or Fullback, given his ability to turn on a sixpence.

Wallace should be considered at IC, given D'Arcys poor showing.

Kearney has probably the biggest boot of any Irish player(see his half way dropgoal in Churchill Cup 06), and is a huge prospect at FB

All these young prospects need game time, firstly at provincial level, then at International level.

ivuernis

What about Munster's NZ-born No. 10 Jeremy Manning who is eligible to play for Ireland this coming season?

hk797

dub_skav wrote:

The problem is the unwillingness to select players not playing for the provinces

Agreed dub_skav ... that unwritten practice along with a number of other outdated IRFU gems are gone way beyond their sell by date ... better provincial squad rotation is what I was hinting at ... giving up and coming talent 40 minutes game time regularly instead of only getting off the bench occasionally for the last 5-10 minutes of a game.

bugler

What about Munster's NZ-born No. 10 Jeremy Manning who is eligible to play for Ireland this coming season?

He will be third choice Munster OH. He is an awful player.

Stev_o

Luke Fitzgerald?????? I laughed. People are saying he's the best Irish player every cause he's doing well in the Magners. Fact is he hasnt come up against ANY decent opposition

Rob Kearney for me deserves a shot at senior level i think he's proven himself at Leinster to make the transition. Anyone know how he handled with Ireland A

davyjose

Redundo wrote:

A very unfair comment there on ROG. Yes, he had a terrible WC but a bad 6 months doesn't make him a bad player. I think once he is back playing Magners League with Munster and the pressure is off him he will come right again. That said he shouldn't be Irelands one and only choice for fly-half every single time. Paddy Wallace should be given a lot more opportunities to prove his worth in future.

ROG will be 34 at the next World Cup. It'd be nice to have someone a bit younger. It's time to move on, take some risks. This team is PAST its best!!!

Redundo

Some people here are talkking about a level of wholesale change that just isn't in the slightest bit realistic. Irelands problems at the moment is not down to old players or poor quality players. It's down to complacency, stagnation and resistance to change.

New players aren't needed just for the sake of new blood. The new players are needed to develop a squad of 30 rather then 15, to shake up current players and introduce genuine competition, to allow the team to bring more then one attacking option to a game, to take pressure off current players when not on form and to give new players something worth fighting for.

At the moment the IRFU and EOS must change their too conservative views on the player pool and squad rotation. Players outside the Irish provinces must be given a fair shout at inclusion in the national team and promising young talent shouldn't be smothered in a provincial system dominated by well-established players.
The policy of bringing on players inexperienced at country level for the last 10-15mins has failed completely. New players should be given the match starts with the experienced heads waiting to come on when needed.
A return to basics please! Whats the point in having any gameplan at all if players consistently knock-on and give away kickable penalties?

Most of this has been said already by other posters, but the other reactionary talk of dropping half the squad would put this Ireland team on a hiding to nothing.

dc69

Stev_o wrote:

Luke Fitzgerald?????? I laughed. People are saying he's the best Irish player every cause he's doing well in the Magners. Fact is he hasnt come up against ANY decent opposition

Rob Kearney for me deserves a shot at senior level i think he's proven himself at Leinster to make the transition. Anyone know how he handled with Ireland A

you must be joking,he is easily the no1 best prospect for Irelands future.have you seen him play alot,Ive seen him from schools to leinster and he has nearly always exclipsed everyone else on the pitch when he is given decent ball.

kearney is a good player but nothing to shout about.Has he come up against decent oposition?
maybe after this years magners league,when fitzgerald gets some good game time because of hickeys departure,then you can comment about his ability.:)

LeeroyJones

4 years ago England for 2 years basked in their glory and somewhere in 2005 realised "crap, theres a world cup in 2 years and we haven't prepared!". We must make sure we don't do something similar only istead of basking glory-feeling sorry for ourselves and pointing fingers!

Personally I dont think sacking EOS would be any use, who better can come in? Remember in soccer when Kerr got the boot-we all thought it was great news- and a certain Steve Staunton took over!

With regards the team itself, lets implement a 4 year plan to produce 30-35players ready for World Cup 2011-rather than the 20 odd we had over in France! Unfortunatly i think we should axe those 31+(as they will be 35 by 2011 and be carrying too many miles), perhaps call on them if we find ourselves ina 6nations decider or something-otherwise lets blood the young lads. Lets look at the crop between the ages of say 19-31. Unfortunatly it means the end for Carney(a crime that he wasn't given more of a chance for this current WC),Hickie(great servant), Easterbuy, Wallace(2 of the best flankers to grace our nation), Hayes, MOK,Quinlan, Sheahan(all gave us their all and have been great servants).

We have exciting talent coming through,Ryan, Healy, Earls, Toner, Heaslip, Fitzgerald, Kearney, Sexton to name but a few.

I think looking at the current "starting 15" we have many vacancies to fill in the next 4 years!

1.Vacancy
2.Flannery
3.Vacancy
4.DOC
5.POC
6.Vacancy
7.Vacancy
8.Leamy
9.Reddan
10.ROG (is there but in 4 years I doubt he'll be playing 80 mins-be nice to have somebody instead and have ROG on the bench to sure up a match if needs be)
11.Vacancy
12.D'arcy
13.BOD(it's the miles you have not the years that ware you down-hopefully 2011 isn't a bridge too far)
14.Horgan
15.Murphy

Also I hope that EOS will be less stubborn and not ignore those over in the Premiership. Jennings lost out because of this, Reddan almost did, Bob Casey never got a look in because of it. I understand its so players will commit to the IRFU but there are only 3 teams playing top level and 1 team in the challenge cup, of course players need to play elsewhere esp when the provences import talent.

LeeroyJones

4 years ago England for 2 years basked in their glory and somewhere in 2005 realised "crap, theres a world cup in 2 years and we haven't prepared!". We must make sure we don't do something similar only istead of basking glory-feeling sorry for ourselves and pointing fingers!

Personally I dont think sacking EOS would be any use, who better can come in? Remember in soccer when Kerr got the boot-we all thought it was great news- and a certain Steve Staunton took over!

With regards the team itself, lets implement a 4 year plan to produce 30-35players ready for World Cup 2011-rather than the 20 odd we had over in France! Unfortunatly i think we should axe those 31+(as they will be 35 by 2011 and be carrying too many miles), perhaps call on them if we find ourselves ina 6nations decider or something-otherwise lets blood the young lads. Lets look at the crop between the ages of say 19-31. Unfortunatly it means the end for Carney(a crime that he wasn't given more of a chance for this current WC),Hickie(great servant), Easterbuy, Wallace(2 of the best flankers to grace our nation), Hayes, MOK,Quinlan, Sheahan(all gave us their all and have been great servants).

We have exciting talent coming through,Ryan, Healy, Earls, Toner, Heaslip, Fitzgerald, Kearney, Sexton to name but a few.

I think looking at the current "starting 15" we have many vacancies to fill in the next 4 years!

1.Vacancy
2.Flannery
3.Vacancy
4.DOC
5.POC
6.Vacancy
7.Vacancy
8.Leamy
9.Reddan
10.ROG (is there but in 4 years I doubt he'll be playing 80 mins-be nice to have somebody instead and have ROG on the bench to sure up a match if needs be)
11.Vacancy
12.D'arcy
13.BOD(it's the miles you have not the years that ware you down-hopefully 2011 isn't a bridge too far)
14.Horgan
15.Murphy

Also I hope that EOS will be less stubborn and not ignore those over in the Premiership. Jennings lost out because of this, Reddan almost did, Bob Casey never got a look in because of it. I understand its so players will commit to the IRFU but there are only 3 teams playing top level and 1 team in the challenge cup, of course players need to play elsewhere esp when the provences import talent.

pid()

Before the game against Argentina EOS used 18 of the 30 available to him. There is no point bringing someone on in the 77th minute either. Not only does the squad need rebuilding but his thinking does as well.

davyjose

dc69 wrote:

kearney is a good player but nothing to shout about.Has he come up against decent oposition?maybe after this years magners league,when fitzgerald gets some good game time because of hickeys departure,then you can comment about his ability.:)

Has Fitzgerald???
From the Leinster games I was at, or seen on TV last year, I was more impressed by Kearney. In fact, I remember one of his first matches (after the lions tour when BOD, and I think Hickie, were out) - I think it was the one where we trashed Bourgoin - and he was awesome, and still only a kid. A very real prospect!

dc69

davyjose wrote:

Has Fitzgerald???
From the Leinster games I was at, or seen on TV last year, I was more impressed by Kearney. In fact, I remember one of his first matches (after the lions tour when BOD, and I think Hickie, were out) - I think it was the one where we trashed Bourgoin - and he was awesome, and still only a kid. A very real prospect!

no,i was responding to another comment where the guy said fitz hadnt come up against good oposition and was raving about kearney,to which the exact same could be said.When fitz was called up to play pacific islands he could have done something apart from the fact that horgan never gave him the ball.TBH he never played much last year,maybe this year we will see something special from him

MARK MY WORDS '' luke fitzgerald will be the next world class player Ireland have,he will captain the team and probably the Lions.he will defo play for the next lions squad'' fact

GreenHell

Thats a bit extreme isn't it. Get the lad some HEC experience and benching for Ireland in the next set of internationals we'll judge after that.

Kearney should leave leinster if he is not getting regular game time next season outside of celtic league.

dc69

GreenHell wrote:

Thats a bit extreme isn't it. Get the lad some HEC experience and benching for Ireland in the next set of internationals we'll judge after that.

Kearney should leave leinster if he is not getting regular game time next season outside of celtic league.

agree =100%,most of the responsability has to lie on the provinces,if we are to have any success in the future,they need to start giving these young players good game time against good oposition.

RugBeir

LeeroyJones wrote:

Personally I dont think sacking EOS would be any use, who better can come in? Remember in soccer when Kerr got the boot-we all thought it was great news- and a certain Steve Staunton took over!

I cannot disagree more!

Leeroy, your analogy with Soccer is not valid. Our soccer team were in a period of major transition during which time Kerr had to start from scratch and bring in untried players to replace the jaded old pros. Plus with soccer lads coming from diverse clubs,it meant there was more work as regards team building to be done, requiring better mgt and coaching skills.

An Irish rugby coach, on the otherhand, has most of the work done for him by Munster and Leinster coaching. The past few years have been glory years for Munster and inspiring years for Leinster. Is it any wonder, therefore, that we had a good Irish team!

IMO the contribution of EOS to the team has been to stifle and smother the creativity of whats been called the 'Golden Generation' of Irish rugby.

The fact that he doesnt have alot of team time with the players during the 6N meant he didnt succeed so well, in imposing his style, as he did during the World Cup, thank God! Nevertheless, there were symptoms of this same illness in the 6N for the past 2/3 years. The year of the Welsh Grand Slam in particular.

So we now know what 4 months intensive coaching under EOS can do to a team!

Why, in the name of all that is good in Irish Rugby, give him 4 more years !

marco_polo

davyjose wrote:

ROG will be 34 at the next World Cup. It'd be nice to have someone a bit younger. It's time to move on, take some risks. This team is PAST its best!!!

Don't forget Paddy Wallace will be 32 come the next world cup, and will surely not improve much at this stage in his career, even with increased gametime there for Ulster. We definately to unearth some new talent quickly.

LeeroyJones

RugBeir wrote:

I cannot disagree more!

Leeroy, your analogy with Soccer is not valid. Our soccer team were in a period of major transition during which time Kerr had to start from scratch and bring in untried players to replace the jaded old pros. Plus with soccer lads coming from diverse clubs,it meant there was more work as regards team building to be done, requiring better mgt and coaching skills.

An Irish rugby coach, on the otherhand, has most of the work done for him by Munster and Leinster coaching. The past few years have been glory years for Munster and inspiring years for Leinster. Is it any wonder, therefore, that we had a good Irish team!

IMO the contribution of EOS to the team has been to stifle and smother the creativity of whats been called the 'Golden Generation' of Irish rugby.

The fact that he doesnt have alot of team time with the players during the 6N meant he didnt succeed so well, in imposing his style, as he did during the World Cup, thank God! Nevertheless, there were symptoms of this same illness in the 6N for the past 2/3 years. The year of the Welsh Grand Slam in particular.

So we now know what 4 months intensive coaching under EOS can do to a team!

Why, in the name of all that is good in Irish Rugby, give him 4 more years !

My point was not to sack him blindly like in the soccer without anyone lined up. Who's better than him and that's Irish?I'm not saying there aren't options but Let's research this before any action is made to remove EOS.

hk797

Redundo wrote:

but the other reactionary talk of dropping half the squad would put this Ireland team on a hiding to nothing.

In fairness Redundo that boogie man is the reason we find ourselves in the position we are in ... the provinces setup has mirrored the national setup ... unfortunately it has become part of our mindset ... time to re-educate all concerned on the art of squad rotation which is essential to compete at the highest levels of the modern game ... all 15 positions are up for grabs for the next RWC ... nobody in the current setup is assured a starting place ... lets build a panel of 30-45 players who are capable of starting in a green jersey ... ensuring we always have alternatives ... and an impact bench to hand when required ... time to rebuild

pid() wrote:

Before the game against Argentina EOS used 18 of the 30 available to him.

Actions speak louder than words ... we need to ensure this never happens again.

LeeroyJones wrote:

Personally I dont think sacking EOS would be any use, who better can come in?

Why oh why oh why do people think there is no one else capable of coaching our national team ... EOS gave it his best shot and fell short ... along way short ... and not for the first time on the big stage ... as the Lions tour showed ... with the players and financial resources at our national coach disposal it is a dream job for the best rugby coach in the world ... and that is what we should be looking for ... the best rugby coach in the world to take us to a world cup final in 2011 ... they need to signup with that goal and a bonus structure put in place for its delivery ... with someone like Keith Woods as an assistant they would hit the ground running ... lets pay EOS his termination fee and move on ... time to rebuild

After reading this interview with IRFU CEO Philip "We are a small sporting nation" Browne we also need a changing of the guard at the top ... only leadership with ambition can take us to the next level ... nothing less than a grand slam followed by a world cup final appearance over the next four years is acceptable ... none of that is possible with the current setup of players or management ... Mark Egan and Conor O Shea are two names which come to mind who would be good replacements as CEO ... that conversation needs to start today ... time to rebuild

davyjose

marco_polo wrote:

Don't forget Paddy Wallace will be 32 come the next world cup, and will surely not improve much at this stage in his career, even with increased gametime there for Ulster. We definately to unearth some new talent quickly.

Absolutely! TBH Paddy Wallace is a decent player, but nowhere near World Class. So in essence I wasn't even considering him. As someone pointed out, the two young lads at Leinster and Ulster seem to be doing well. Will try to get to the RDS on Friday for a look at Sexton. Watched him last year when Pomi was injured, and he looks decent enough, given his youth.

zAbbo

Johnny Sexton, Ian Keately, Ian Humphreys - thats where our future outhalf lies.

It really depends on getting gametime, and this season could see a huge breakthrough for both Sexton and Humphries.

Keately played a key role in the u20 Grand Slam team.

Get down to the RDS on Friday evening, and have a look at Sexton, he's been hugely impressive in the opening two games.

bugler

Humphries will never be an international outhalf. His reputation in Ulster is poor, and he can't place kick.

zAbbo

bugler wrote:

Humphries will never be an international outhalf. His reputation in Ulster is poor, and he can't place kick.

Reputation in Ulster, oh that hotbed of young talented outhalves, where they put an aging ex-international at 10, and play the only viable international outhalf at 12. Yeah I'm sure he's concerned about his reputation in Ulster, when he turned down a development contract at Ulster and headed to probably the best academy setup in UK.

How do we know if he's not international class?, if he's not given the chance, it's that kinda thinking which fcuked us over in the RWC.

Get him in, involved with the squads, and see what he can do.

bugler

So you don't think his reputation in his home province is anything to go by? We've been here before. If Humphreys is lucky he'll have the international career of Jeremy Staunton.

If Hernandez goes to the Tigers then Humph jr will probably need a new club too. Not sure if that move is confirmed yet. Maybe Ulster will take him back.

daconn

Hate Saying it folks, but I think we have to look at EOS's policy of not looking outside the box.
2 years ago he had the opportunity to cap Shane Geraghty.... left him in the UK.
Mr Geraghty is subsuquently capped by England..... nearly turns it around against France.... Jonny comes back, and Geraghty is left out of the Chariot.

Could have certainly done with him at RWC.

EOS has to look outside the 4 provinces.... lads in England are playing a higher standard of rugby week in week out..... better than ML.

There is the "too much rugby" argument I agree, but EOS has to be made trawl around for tallent

bugler

Geraghty made the decision to play for England. EOS's attitude to English based players may not have helped, but I don't think it had any real influence on his decision. To be honest, I'd have my doubts he'll be a 10 of any repute also. Again, a ropey place kicker who has played most of his rugby at centre.

Sangre

Geraghty was never going to declare for Ireland.

pjbrady1

I used to work with a lad from Limerick David Boyle who played with UL Bohemians. By god he was a perfect build for a prop. 5ft10 17stone at 19 years of age. He was not on a weights programm. His grandfather played soccer in England and for a big man he was a skillful soccer player. Four years after this who is out at the world cup.
Marcus Horan, who proved QED that his handling is subpar, when you see the slow mo's it's obvious that he cannot react with his arms quick enough with his hands to catch even well placed passes.
We can't afford to let natural strong skilled players fall by the wayside.

Another thing, people wonder why Ireland lost out so badly in the physical stakes. Well there is a simple answer, we're relying too much on reputation and not enough on hard facts. There is no way Donnacha O'Callaghan is the lock with the most strength breaking forward with the ball. His 20m times must be shocking. This is important, a guy like Jason Robinson can have more of a physical drive than O'Callaghan as his acceleration and starting speed are so far ahead. Witness John Hayes who never makes any ground as he simply can't run. American football long ago took the approach that you can improve the skills of a good athlete, but you'll never make a good athlete out of a slow coach.
Finally speed is a good indicator of basic strength. No amount of gym work will make up for a lack of natural explosive power.

hk797

Best also warned that England need to be ruthless when it came to bringing new blood into the side after the tournament finishes.

"There's no point in the older players being used in the Six Nations," he said.

"That is the time when you should be moving on. We made that mistake four years ago - we should have had a clear-out and rebuilt the side."

Reading Dick Best remarks did any Irish coach during or after our RWC performance call for the same for our golden boys? Good to see Philip Browne changing his tune about and this external review happening. Anyone know who the independent consultants are doing it and when we find out the results?