NL Tournament Question

Ace2007

hi, just wondering in NL tournaments, is a player allowed to ask the dealer to count whats in the middle?

This happened to me tonight, i figured that the guy was on a flush draw and that if i moved all in (on the turn) that he would fold, he thought about it for ages, before asking the dealer how much was in the middle, when told he said something along the lines of "i have to call i'm getting the odds" - he did call and he won -

but was he right to ask the dealer?

5starpool

In a lot of places they won't count it for you, they will just spread it, but in the Fitz the dealers pretty much always tell you. There is no specific rule in there on it, and if there are dealers that don't then they are not many. It might just be a follow on from the fact that all the cash games there are PL so they are used to keeping the pot, or else they are not experienced enough and just count for you.

mdwexford

Id never count it, id just spread it so they can count themselves, if they cant count tough ****

LuckyLloyd

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CaptainNemo

I've always assumed that the dealer has to count the pot if asked. It happens all the time in the Macau in tournaments.

LuckyLloyd

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bell_boy

With regard to what information dealers should or shouldn't give during a hand, it always irritates me when a player asks on one of the later streets about who raised preflop and the dealer (or other players) tell them. Is there a rule against this?

sumoward

A similar situation arose about a month ago at a table in the SE that I was at.

Paddy O'Neill asked the dealer to count the pot. She refused. Vera Duffy said that she believed that the dealers were not to do this. I mentioned that I thought this was the case. Paddy called for a ruling and the TD had the dealer count the chips for him.

In my opinion, the dealer should count the chips, simply as its faster. Otherwise someone asks, they are refused, a discussion ensues, and the chips are counted or the chips are not counted. If they are not counted the player leans over, mumbles tries and counts them, tries and counts them again, tries a third time. Thinks about, someone calls the clock, they think a little more and then do what they were going to do anyway.

Let them get their count, stick their chips in and get to the bloody next hand.

strewelpeter

I'm the Villan here and afterwards I got some criticism for the call but not for asking about the pot.
I was also at the table that Sumoward is talking about in the SE.

I'm not exactly certain what is in the pot +- 600 and the pot is stacked so that I can't see how many big chips are in it so when I asked the dealer how much is it to call I then pointed at the pot and asked "and that?" I'm pretty sure that he didn't answer me. I could work back over all the action and add them up to work it out but that really isn't the biggest thing on my mind at that time though. I'm right in the middle of a real life reads versus maths situation that is is make or break for the tourney. I'm also wasting my time trying to get a read from a player who is about as inscrutable as they come.
I have no problem with anyone finding out what exactly is in the pot and maybe I should have just asked the dealer to splash it about so that I could count it myself. As has been said its quicker for him to do it as hes in the habit of keeping count from the cash tables. In actual fact what happened was that he did splash it about and underestimated it as just 6000, I was doing a quick count and I made it over 7K actually it was just short of 7K.

I'm pretty sure that I didn't say anything about having odds to call - If I had said anything... well ...what I was thinking was that I'm confident as I can be calling for make or break with 2nd pair and a flush draw that I'm ahead but have decent odds if I am wrong.

Jippo

5starpool wrote:

...all the cash games there are PL...

Yeah why is this?

strewelpeter

Jippo wrote:

Yeah why is this?

The reason that they always know the amount in the pot is so that when someone wants to bet the pot they know how much is allowed to be bet.
If you are asking why there is only PL played in there... Thats a good question.

LuckyLloyd

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Ace2007

strewelpeter wrote:

I'm the Villan here and afterwards I got some criticism for the call but not for asking about the pot.
I was also at the table that Sumoward is talking about in the SE.

I'm not exactly certain what is in the pot +- 600 and the pot is stacked so that I can't see how many big chips are in it so when I asked the dealer how much is it to call I then pointed at the pot and asked "and that?" I'm pretty sure that he didn't answer me. I could work back over all the action and add them up to work it out but that really isn't the biggest thing on my mind at that time though. I'm right in the middle of a real life reads versus maths situation that is is make or break for the tourney. I'm also wasting my time trying to get a read from a player who is about as inscrutable as they come.
I have no problem with anyone finding out what exactly is in the pot and maybe I should have just asked the dealer to splash it about so that I could count it myself. As has been said its quicker for him to do it as hes in the habit of keeping count from the cash tables. In actual fact what happened was that he did splash it about and underestimated it as just 6000, I was doing a quick count and I made it over 7K actually it was just short of 7K.

I'm pretty sure that I didn't say anything about having odds to call - If I had said anything... well ...what I was thinking was that I'm confident as I can be calling for make or break with 2nd pair and a flush draw that I'm ahead but have decent odds if I am wrong.

You can correct me if i'm wrong but what was in the middle not nearer 5500, preflop it was 700 - 3 callers(pot was 2250), flop(A72,i think, but defo an Ace and 2 hearts) i bet 1700(one caller, pot is now 5650), i figured that you were on the flush draw and that if i pushed for the remaining 3775, you were getting about 2.7/1 which i figured wouldn't be the correct odds to chase a flush draw as it would mean you are effectively all in, in a FO. (i figured you need at least 4/1 on your money to call, which you weren't getting)

On a side note - i always thought that in NL tournaments that a dealer is not allowed to assist to whats in the middle, as Llyod said, I was going to say this at the time but i figured that if i do you probably would call. So i decided to say nothing..

Also in the other situation of who raised preflop - i know for a fact that the dealer or other players at a table are not allowed state this...if someone asks

Also - inscrutable as they come???

One last thing - My Question was based on you asking the dealer what was in the middle, it doesnt' matter what i had or you had or what the odds were/weren't and as i said to you "good call" when you did make it, my question was simple should the dealer count whats in the middle...

strewelpeter

inscrutable \in-SKROO-tuh-buhl\, adjective:
Difficult to fathom or understand; difficult to be explained or accounted for satisfactorily; obscure; incomprehensible; impenetrable.
I mean I haven't a hope of getting a physical tell.
Those numbers for the bets sound right but when I counted my stack after it seemed to be 7K and there was definitely more than 6K when I counted it after the dealer splashed it...

Edited to remove the discussion of the hand after your edit.

Yea, I probably had the night in the SE in the back of my mind when I asked...but really like I say it wasn't whether I was getting 2 or 3/1 wasn't foremost in my mind.

It might have been better a/ if I'd kept the running total in my head or b/ just asked him to splash the pot. But I cannot see any problem about whether someone asks for the total or asks to have the pot splashed to count it themselves.

Ace2007

I think the reason you had around 7k in front of you was because i was all in and not you... you had chips left over, having the pot splashed i have no problem with, but i read someone where(if i'm bother i'll find out where that in NL games the dealer shouldn't tell).

From ppl who play them - in NL live cash games - is the dealer allowed tell you wats in the middle?

strewelpeter

Ah no I had that left aside. No Its probably just that I'm crap at counting
I added it up and took 7600 off and got 6700 or 6800 ... but if you remember that was only a few minutes after I failed to count the number of players at the table correctly :eek:

pokerkingsni

34 . Pot Size. Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.

This is from the TDA's website list of rules. Updated this year.

Ace2007

pokerkingsni wrote:

34 . Pot Size. Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.

This is from the TDA's website list of rules. Updated this year.

Yep thats what i had read - i'm glad that you found it for me....

Theresalwaysone

PL because people stack off quicker in no limit leaving the house no time to rake them.

Lplate

I have asked in the past and never been refused. I don't understand why it shouldn't be allowed. Lucy Rokach wrote an article in this months cardplayer on this subject. http://www.cardplayer.com/cpeurope/article/17031

Ace2007

Lplate wrote:

I have asked in the past and never been refused. I don't understand why it shouldn't be allowed. Lucy Rokach wrote an article in this months cardplayer on this subject. http://www.cardplayer.com/cpeurope/article/17031

34 . Pot Size. Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.

This is from the TDA's website list of rules. Updated this year.

Its in the rules.........

Also someone stated above that its part of the skill on NL...

Jesus Wept

I'd never ask a dealer to count the pot in NL, I've asked them to spread it, and they should.

One refused before, idiot.

Ace2007

yea i wouldn't too much against spreading it... but at the same time any player who is involved in a pot should have a fair idea of how much is in there anyhow...