Chokers tag now rests with Ireland

CJhaughey

The All Blacks have had this title since 1991 and in some cases deservedly so, other cases were a marginal call IMO.
But I now believe that this Irish team (and manager) have now superseded the AB's as deserved holders of the title chokers.
The fall in the teams form has been nothing short of phenomenal, right before the RWC this team were being held up as possible semifinalists.
Today the reality is somewhat different.
Therefore I consider this team to be chokers in the true sense of the word.
Of course the blame ultimately lies in the methods and execution of the coach but he is not the one on show to the rest of the world.

Punchbowl

And you're basing this on that fact that we haven't reached the semi's?

You do realise that we still could?

marco_polo

CJhaughey wrote:

The All Blacks have had this title since 1991 and in some cases deservedly so, other cases were a marginal call IMO.
But I now believe that this Irish team (and manager) have now superseded the AB's as deserved holders of the title chokers.
The fall in the teams form has been nothing short of phenomenal, right before the RWC this team were being held up as possible semifinalists.
Today the reality is somewhat different.
Therefore I consider this team to be chokers in the true sense of the word.
Of course the blame ultimately lies in the methods and execution of the coach but he is not the one on show to the rest of the world.

Is their any more stupid term in the whole wide world than the term "chokers", it is a bull**** lazy tabloid word that seems to be slapped on to any team that loses anything nowadays.

What exactly is the "truest sense of the word BTW"? Perhaps just occasionally perhaps the best team wins? Or the losing team just wasn't good enough? Or luck plays a part? Nerves? Or just a good/bad performance? They are many complex reason why a sporting contest may go one way or the other, that cannot be filed under one catch all phrase.

Have you any analysis of the reasons as to why the team may be underperforming or did you just read somewhere that Ireland were chokers and decided to regurgitate it here?

Are you Roy Curtis in disguise?

ThomasH

But I now believe that this Irish team (and manager) have now superseded the AB's as deserved holders of the title chokers.

The ABs have always been a very good team and consistently beat other teams between world cups sometime with huge margins but in each WC they managed to "bottle" it and that's why they received the tag of being "chokers". Ireland have never been favourites in any WC so not sure how you draw your conclusion based on one poor WC performance by the Irish.

CJhaughey

marco_polo wrote:

Have you any analysis of the reasons as to why the team may be underperforming or did you just read somewhere that Ireland were chokers and decided to regurgitate it here?

I will attempt to analyse the performance but as it so poor I fear I may miss some parts,
Frontrow are struggling, if it wasn't for the Bull it would be going backwards at a rate of knots, Flannery brings a small bit of performance to the table compared to Best, Horan has been under severe pressure in most of the games against even poor teams and was very lucky not to have been carded against France.
O'Callaghan and O'Connell have largely been anonymous not hitting rucks, jumping against opposition ball or even trying to generally disrupt other lineouts.
Backrow has been poor Wallace still trying to find form and Leamy little better bad hands and lack of support running, Very few turnovers made for Ireland at rucks.
Easterby had a reasonable game against France but has been invisible in all previous games.
Stringer- very poor and has paid for it, ROG also unbelievably poor at kicking from hand and finiding touch, Distribution not much to write home about but seeing as the 12 and 13 are being tackled as they recieve the ball not much can be done.
GD and BOD also playing poorly BOD at least is trying but one man against 15 never works.
Hickie looks lost and lacks true pace these days, Horgan handling and passing like a beginner.
Dempsey is Ok for catching highballs but about as useful as a chocolate teapot at attacking the opposition without kicking possession away.
The occasion has got to them and the coach has not been willing or able to rectify the problem.
Overall this team has shown that the sum of the parts is less than the individuals = hence the term chokers.

Junior

So how does that count as *choking* or whats your definition of choking ?

bugler

You have to get yourself into a position to win or be a strong favourite to win before you can choke. So Ireland can't have choked - we've been that bad.

Even if we played well this WC, which we haven't and won't, there was still a chance we'd lose both big games due to the quality of opponents.

marco_polo

CJhaughey wrote:

I will attempt to analyse the performance but as it so poor I fear I may miss some parts,
Frontrow are struggling, if it wasn't for the Bull it would be going backwards at a rate of knots, Flannery brings a small bit of performance to the table compared to Best, Horan has been under severe pressure in most of the games against even poor teams and was very lucky not to have been carded against France.
O'Callaghan and O'Connell have largely been anonymous not hitting rucks, jumping against opposition ball or even trying to generally disrupt other lineouts.
Backrow has been poor Wallace still trying to find form and Leamy little better bad hands and lack of support running, Very few turnovers made for Ireland at rucks.
Easterby had a reasonable game against France but has been invisible in all previous games.
Stringer- very poor and has paid for it, ROG also unbelievably poor at kicking from hand and finiding touch, Distribution not much to write home about but seeing as the 12 and 13 are being tackled as they recieve the ball not much can be done.
GD and BOD also playing poorly BOD at least is trying but one man against 15 never works.
Hickie looks lost and lacks true pace these days, Horgan handling and passing like a beginner.
Dempsey is Ok for catching highballs but about as useful as a chocolate teapot at attacking the opposition without kicking possession away.
The occasion has got to them and the coach has not been willing or able to rectify the problem.
Overall this team has shown that the sum of the parts is less than the individuals = hence the term chokers.

Nice summation of the world cup performance so far so kudos for that. Still disagree that it is choking though, we have just been completely s***house so far.

Choking is a tag that must be truely earned through real disaster such as missing a last minute kick, or knocking on with the line at your mercy, or in the case of a genuine team choke a massive drop in performance a pressure game compared to prior performances. Much like the term "world class" it is losing it meaning through overuse.

In Irelands case sadly we have not been good enough to even give ourselves the opportunity choke.

Diamondmaker

I think choking means not performing when expectation is high and the pressure is on when otherwise a team would often perform well...........................

sounds familiar.

Id call em chokers.

Benedict XVI

Ireland and have always been chokers if you ask me.

They choked back in 1991
They choked in the last game of the 2003 6 nations when a win would have given them a grand slam.
They choked again in Croke park against France
They choked by giving up a late try against Italy on St. Patrick's day and missed out on Championship.

Choking is nothing new to Irish rugby it's just that this time they have choked much earlier, it must have been the hype that caused it.

Linford

The Irish situation is completely different to the All Blacks. In every world cup so far NZ have been the dominent team leading up to the world cup and then through the group stages. They normally come undone/choke in the semi-finals.

Ireland have been playing poorly since the six nations. Choking normally means you win everything with the exception of the last final/vital match. Performing consistently badly for 6 months after playing well for the previous 12 is not choking...

CJhaughey

Diamondmaker has given the best defination of the word yet.
How else do you explain the sudden and massive loss of form?
Linford the team hasn't really played since March, where did the 6mths come in?
I am not including the Argentina tour as that was the dirttrack team.
I am talking about the chosen 15 that EOS always picks.
In nearly every single piece of Print before the WC Ireland were being tipped as saviours of the pride of the NH.
England, Wales,Scotland, Italy and France were more or less written off with the sometime exception of (France on Occasion), but Ireland after Good wins over two SH teams had the mantle of best placed NH team.
Then they go and produce a performance that would embarass an AIL club side.
That to me is choking.

CoDy1

Yes, we have underperformed and been utterly dissapointing to watch but choking- I dont think so.

I for one always thought that topping the group was going to be still a very long shot for this team, but i still have just a smidgen of faith left that we can get through and I'm not going to start dissecting the shortcomings of this team until we have actually been knocked out of the WC.

Lets get behind them one last time on sunday, one last chance.

Unreg1204

CJhaughey wrote:

The occasion has got to them and the coach has not been willing or able to rectify the problem.
Overall this team has shown that the sum of the parts is less than the individuals = hence the term chokers.

In your opinion, how has Eddie O'Sullivan not been willing to rectify the problem? I'm sure lots of you would disagree with me but it's him I feel sorry for. He can only hope that they perform when they're out there - all he can do is go with what he thinks is best and then look on from the sidelines. He tried the safe bet and it didn't work, everyone gave out about him. So then he went the risky route, they're still berating him. What would you do better if you were him? I don't think the blame lies with him here...
(Bear in mind, I am a girl so what would I know!)

CJhaughey

Eos has consistently refused to use his bench.
Unlike every single other team in this competition he doggedly refuses to believe that Subs can change a game.
Alan Quinlan who don't forget scored a winning try against Argentina last time around has not even been picked for the bench.
Incredibly his reason for not selecting G. Murphy was that he had played badly against France in previous encounters.
Surely this would make Quinlan a favourite against Argentina?
Look, this is only one of a myriad of complaints that I have against EOS and I have neither the Time, Patience or Stomach to keep reminding myself what it is that he has done to the Team.
All I want is for him to go.

jimd2

CJhaughey wrote:

The All Blacks have had this title since 1991 and in some cases deservedly so, other cases were a marginal call IMO.
But I now believe that this Irish team (and manager) have now superseded the AB's as deserved holders of the title chokers.
The fall in the teams form has been nothing short of phenomenal, right before the RWC this team were being held up as possible semifinalists.
Today the reality is somewhat different.
Therefore I consider this team to be chokers in the true sense of the word.
Of course the blame ultimately lies in the methods and execution of the coach but he is not the one on show to the rest of the world.

This is a bull**** thread.

Chokers would refer to a team that can make it to a big day showing excellent form and then not being able to handle it on the day.

Ireland havent performed for months now, nothing to do with choking. Just bad form collectively and individually and piss poor management.