Type of ammo used in styer

pm.

Just curious, i seen an army patrol outside the boi in longford today and wondered the type of ammo they use, i do a bit of shooting myself and have a .223 as far as i know its the same as the 5.56 military round, could only imagine the damage they could do.

Captain Chaos

The army use 5.56x45mm ball point ammo as far as I'm aware, none of that expanding or fragmantation/hallopoint stuff.

Manic Moran

I presume they use SS109 rounds. Can't think of a legal reason they shouldn't use fragmenting/deforming rounds, but it probably just makes life difficult for supply. 5.56mm ball is enough of an attention-getter.

NTM

arybvtcw0eolkf

5.56mm.

Hagar

Manic Moran wrote:

I presume they use SS109 rounds. Can't think of a legal reason they shouldn't use fragmenting/deforming rounds, but it probably just makes life difficult for supply. 5.56mm ball is enough of an attention-getter.

NTM

I can't think of a legal reason either, but as a member of the human race...

Steyr

5.56MM NATO Ball Type Ammunition.

testicle

It's derived from your .223, but not competely interchangeable. .223 can be fired in a 5.56 chamber, but I wouldn't do it the other way around, as the 5.56 NATO is higher velocity, and higher gas pressure, which could make mince meat of your rifle.

Steyr, it can also fire Blank, and Tracer, not just Ball..

Poccington

Steyr wrote:

5.56MM NATO Ball Type Ammunition.

:eek:

I didn't know Steyr's could talk!?

Manic Moran

Hagar wrote:

I can't think of a legal reason either, but as a member of the human race...

A fragmenting round reduces the problems of overpenetration, which is something you might want to consider when dealing with crowded city streets, which is where most bank runs tend to be.

Besides, if you're shooting to stop a threat at close range, a 'defense' round would have a much quicker effect than ball. US police forces use Hydrashocks or JHP for this reason.

NTM

Flying

If you want to to Match Target shooting I would suggest a more expensive round as the military one would not be off the right grade IMHO as it is mass produced and fouls a lot.

Although it is cheap and handy for hunting etc

I am considering getting a .223 Rifle in the near future but also looking at a .303 if I can get a good quality one

Hagar

Manic Moran wrote:

A fragmenting round reduces the problems of overpenetration, which is something you might want to consider when dealing with crowded city streets, which is where most bank runs tend to be.

Besides, if you're shooting to stop a threat at close range, a 'defense' round would have a much quicker effect than ball. US police forces use Hydrashocks or JHP for this reason.

NTM

The Hydrashocks defence rounds you mention are effectively legal dum-dum bullets.

The use of deforming projectiles in warfare has been a hotly-contested practice. One of the first attempts to address their use in war came almost immediately after the results of said use had been seen. At The Hague Convention of 1899, a convention was proposed and enacted in the spirit of the Declaration of St. Petersburg (1868). This new convention read, in part:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them. It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

Note that the United States was not a signatory to this document. However, the U.S. did sign on to The Hague Convention of 1907. Article 23 of that document states that "In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden -...To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering." This depends on whether the use of the dum-dum is 'calculated to cause unnecessary suffering.' Note that originally, it had nothing to do with suffering and everything to do with effectiveness; it could be argued that the much higher lethality of the dum-dum might involve less suffering than the wounds caused by FMJ rounds. However, on such fine points are great drunken arguments and international incidents made. Kaiser Wilhelm wrote President Woodrow Wilson a blistering note regarding the reported use of dum-dum bullets by the Belgian forces during the German invasion of their country in 1914, which the Belgians denied. So the degree to which this prohibition exists beyond its use as a diplomatic lever is uncertain. It should be noted that, for the most part, modern militaries do, in fact, use fully jacketed bullets. This is not true in all cases, however. For example, in 1985, the U.S. Judge Advocate General issued an opinion which specifically stated that the use of a particular type of bullet (Sierra #2200 'Match King') by snipers, which had an open tip (soft nose), was not in contravention to the Laws of War because the open tip was used to increase accuracy rather than increase suffering or bullet effects, and that comparison of the effects of these bullets to jacketed bullets showed a negligible variation. In addition, since the U.S. has generally considered itself bound by the 1899 document despite not being a formal signatory, it is probably with some sense of delicious irony that an oft-mentioned (but not seen by this author) 1990 document (also purportedly from the JAG, and the same authors therein of the 1985 memo) concluded that in counterterrorist operations, open-tipped bullets were A-OK since the opposing forces were definitely of a 'non-contracting Power.'

Sources:
The Hague Conventions - http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm
A.E. Hartink, Encyclopedia of Rifles and Carbines. Rebo Productions: The Netherlands, 1997.
On War: Armed Conflict Event Data - http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/charlie/chitral1895.htm
Army Navy Journal - http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/AFJI/history/Mags/2002/march02/march.html
The Gun Zone - http://www.thegunzone.com/opentip-ammo.html
FirstWorldWar.Com - http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/kaiserdumdumbullets.htm
Military Rifles - http://www.militaryrifles.com/Britain/Metford.htm

So while it seems that Hydrashock rounds would be illegal, because of the un-nescessary suffering they cause, in a declared war between nations, they are fine for shooting alleged criminals/terrorists etc.

Steyr

Poccington wrote:

:eek:

I didn't know Steyr's could talk!?

Boing boing boing !!!!

Manic Moran

Hagar wrote:

So while it seems that Hydrashock rounds would be illegal, because of the un-nescessary suffering they cause, in a declared war between nations, they are fine for shooting alleged criminals/terrorists etc.

Correct.

There are also different requirements of urgency. In a normal war, a hit of any type is generally good enough, you don't need to put the guy out of action that second. On the street, you need as near to an instantaneous effect as you can get.

NTM

Sandy22

Captain Chaos wrote:

The army use 5.56x45mm ball point ammo as far as I'm aware, none of that expanding or fragmantation/hallopoint stuff.

On the basis that the pen is mightier than the sword, I suppose?

And goodness knows what hallopoint is???

aidan_dunne

Manic Moran wrote:

overpenetration, which is something you might want to consider when dealing with crowded city streets

I believe this was one of the reasons the Brits chose the 5.56mm round when they were looking for a replacement for the 7.62mm SLR/FN FAL. Apparantly there were found to be problems on the streets of Northern Ireland where rounds often passed straight through house walls and injured innocent people inside the houses. For urban/street combat the 7.62mm round was found to be just too powerful so the 5.56mm became the round of choice for the SLR's replacement and the SA80 was developed around that round.

Manic Moran

As an aside, has there ever been an instance of shots fired in the ATCP role (Outside of ARW ops) either on general checkpoint duty or cash escort?

I know there have been a few physical altercations, but can't recall anyone pulling any triggers.

NTM

testicle

Well, they made ****e of Dessie O'Hare's car, and driver. That was ATCP.

Flying

Manic Moran wrote:

As an aside, has there ever been an instance of shots fired in the ATCP role (Outside of ARW ops) either on general checkpoint duty or cash escort?

I know there have been a few physical altercations, but can't recall anyone pulling any triggers.

NTM

I think if you look at say the 27th Bn and Old 29th BN from 1970 to about 1999 on the border there have been a various amount of times when there were shots fired.


I dunno about further south but my own father was in both and is still in the first and as a child, I heard several incidents of Shots being fired at cars to stop them (One I recall in Dromad in the late 80's) and a good few incidents around the Cooley area and also on Operation Mandrake (Correct me if I'm wrong) when the Brits were upgrading their OP's around the Monaghan/Fermanagh Border in the late 80's or Early 90's.

Also Portlaosie shots were fired to contain escaping prisoners I cant remember the date although.

Mick86

Manic Moran wrote:

As an aside, has there ever been an instance of shots fired in the ATCP role (Outside of ARW ops) either on general checkpoint duty or cash escort?

I know there have been a few physical altercations, but can't recall anyone pulling any triggers.

NTM

Around 1976 the IRA tried to break into Portlaois Prison with a JCB resulting in some shots being fired. A prisoner was shot dead there in the early 80s as far as I can recall. And I know a lad that opened fire with a few warning shots when a prisoner legged it between perimeter wire and the prison wall.

Mind you those incidents were all with the FN. A 7.62mm Rifle for Real Men.:D

testicle

Mick86 wrote:

And I know a lad that opened fire with a few warning shots when a prisoner legged it between perimeter wire and the prison wall.

That wasn't a prisioner, that was the

Dominos Pizza delivery boy.

Mick86

testicle wrote:

That wasn't a prisioner, that was the

Dominos Pizza delivery boy.

Makes no odds. A Pizza Boy would have no business between wall and wire either.

As it happens it was a prisoner being released from the prison to be arrested again outside the gate. Once he saw the GS waiting for him he made a break for it. Where he thought he was going is another matter.

bostonian

5.56mm and .223 are the same thing, the Steyr and M-16A2 use that round, which is the NATO standard, I believe.

All of the bad guys use 7.62mm lol

Captain Chaos

bostonian wrote:

5.56mm and .223 are the same thing, the Steyr and M-16A2 use that round, which is the NATO standard, I believe.

All of the bad guys use 7.62mm lol

There are different 7.62s. The NATO 7.62 is the 7.62x51mm as used in the FAL, the 7.62 used in AK47s for example are 7.62x39mm.

Manic Moran

bostonian wrote:

5.56mm and .223 are the same thing, the Steyr and M-16A2 use that round, which is the NATO standard, I believe.

Loadings are slightly different. 5.56mm requires a stronger chamber.

NTM

testicle

bostonian wrote:

5.56mm and .223 are the same thing

No they are not. Read my first post in this thread.

Sputnik

More then you ever wanted to know about the differences between 5.56 and .223

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm