Luas 45 Euro Standard Fare fine

aka_Ciaran

Hi all - recently a friend that has a Luas Smart Card tried to tag on at Stephen's Green and the reader didn't work, ie didn't read his card. So he gets on regardless without buying a ticket, thinking if their reader doesn't work then there's nothing he can do. An inspector gets on and my mate gets issued a standard fare fine of 45 euro. After showing his credit card as proof of name, he gave a false address. Two things he would like to know:

1) Is he liable if the reader failed to read his card.

2) What can happen if they have an incorrect address..can they get his address form the credit card company...can he be
summonsed / brought to court i.e. will this be out there in future months as an unanswered summons (I'm thinking for future garda checks/employer references etc).


Thanks a lot.
C.

Ham'nd'egger

aka_Ciaran wrote:

Hi all - recently a friend that has a Luas Smart Card tried to tag on at Stephen's Green and the reader didn't work, ie didn't read his card. So he gets on regardless without buying a ticket, thinking if their reader doesn't work then there's nothing he can do. An inspector gets on and my mate gets issued a standard fare fine of 45 euro. After showing his credit card as proof of name, he gave a false address. Two things he would like to know:

1) Is he liable if the reader failed to read his card.

2) What can happen if they have an incorrect address..can they get his address form the credit card company...can he be
summonsed / brought to court i.e. will this be out there in future months as an unanswered summons (I'm thinking for future garda checks/employer references etc).


Thanks a lot.
C.

If the reader wasn't working, surely there would be more than one person charged a standard fare? if the machine was broken, you can rest assured that there would have been numerous fines issued that day; that may stand to his stead. Mind you, if he used to using it, he should have tried the other readers at the station; I assume they were all not broken.

aliveandkicking

One reader out of four (two on each side) not working is not valid grounds to get on the tram without a ticket. All he had to do was cross the platform to swipe the card or walk down the other end of the platform.

1) Yes he is liable.
2) Don't think they have the legal power to demand customers names from a credit card company.

trellheim

So Veolia, at the busiest station on the Green Line can't even bother putting an "out-of-order" on the reader ?

aka_Ciaran

Yes he probably could have made more of an effort to cross to the other side and try another reader, but it was raining, there was a train on the other line also, there were a lot of people milling around and queues at all the ticket machines.
There are no guidelines (that I'm aware of) to say what a person must do if a reader doesn't work i.e. a sign up saying if a reader is broken a person must use another reader etc, or a member of staff to tell people that a reader isn't working and guide them to another one.
Anyway my friend is still worried by the fact he gave a false address, and he's thinking of ringing them to correct it just in case the whole thing comes back to haunt him in the future.

markpb

aka_Ciaran wrote:

There are no guidelines (that I'm aware of) to say what a person must do if a reader doesn't work i.e. a sign up saying if a reader is broken a person must use another reader etc, or a member of staff to tell people that a reader isn't working and guide them to another one.

Actually your friend is very wrong - there are plenty of signs around the Luas saying exactly that. Off the top of my head I think it's printed on the card itself, on the leaflet that came with the card, on the ticket machine and on the information signs on the platforms. It goes as far as to say that if all the card readers are broken, you must ring Veoila and get them to fix it before boarding. If he thought one broken card reader was an excuse to travel free, he's an idiot.

daymobrew

http://luassmartcard.luas.ie/faq.shtml

Luas Smart Card FAQ wrote:

If you do not TAG ON (and receive an audible confirmation of a successful validation) before getting on the tram you are not travelling with a valid ticket.

paulm17781

markpb wrote:

It goes as far as to say that if all the card readers are broken, you must ring Veoila and get them to fix it before boarding.

That is a ridiculous policy. What if (like me) you rarely carry change and on your way to work all machines have been broken the night before? Informing Veolia is one thing but being expected to wait for them to fix it is another.

(I'm not arguing with you, just saying how bad that is )

Ham'nd'egger

paulm17781 wrote:

That is a ridiculous policy. What if (like me) you rarely carry change and on your way to work all machines have been broken the night before? Informing Veolia is one thing but being expected to wait for them to fix it is another.

(I'm not arguing with you, just saying how bad that is )

Well, if you don't have the means to pay for your ticket, then you don't travel. Pretty unridiculous if you ask me

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote:

Well, if you don't have the means to pay for your ticket, then you don't travel. Pretty unridiculous if you ask me

I carry a smart card which is constantly topped up. I do this as I don't carry change and often bring food into work with me (I have no need for cash). It is nothing to do with the means it is my choice, a choice which the RPA offer.

If me using the means they offer can not travel, it is surely their fault for not looking after their systems, not mine for them not looking after their systems.

MarkoP11

Rules are quite simple, you must have a valid ticket (or other permit) to travel and where required that must be validated.

If all the ticket machines at the stop are broken you are not allowed travel either, elsewhere in Europe it would be the same

To Veolia's credit they have adopted a simple straightforward no way out fare evasion policy either you pay before you board or you pay the price, its applied consistently with none of the wishy washy crap you get from the CIE group

While a technical failure of the equipment sucks, I'd find it hard to believe all 4 card readers where broken, it is not unreasonable to try a different reader, if all 4 where broken and you could stand under oath and say you tried all 4 odds are the Judge will throw the case out as you didn't set out to defraud the operator of the fare.

However since a false address was given that defense is null and void as an attempt was made to defraud by avoiding the penalty fare and indeed committing an offence in giving false details

paulm17781

MarkoP11 wrote:

If all the ticket machines at the stop are broken you are not allowed travel either, elsewhere in Europe it would be the same

Any country I've been to has manned stations, if not you pay / validate on the tram.

I agree it is unlikely that all 4 machines would be broken but commuters are left with no option in the (unlikely) event this happens.

I agree tickets should be paid for no matter what but saying I have to be late for work because I was not allowed get on a Luas as someone (else) broke all the machines is a bit much.

fitzyshea

There are 2 validators on each platform if one is broken use the other one if 2 are broken cross over and use the other 2. Its fairly simple really why should your mate get away with not paying his way? Anyway Im sure if he rang Luas head office and explained the situation he would have been let away with it. No?

VERYinterested

The whole scenario seems unlikely to me, sounds like the OP didn't bother tagging on and was caught and rather than feel the wrath of everyone on here, invented a 'friend' that experienced what happened. If all the validators were broken :rolleyes: , there was nothing stopping the 'friend' jumping out at Harcourt and swiping the card. "You must have a valid ticket"

paulm17781

VERYinterested wrote:

there was nothing stopping the 'friend' jumping out at Harcourt and swiping the card.

That's the most sensible thing said in this thread.

aka_Ciaran

VERYinterested wrote:

The whole scenario seems unlikely to me, sounds like the OP didn't bother tagging on and was caught and rather than feel the wrath of everyone on here, invented a 'friend' that experienced what happened. If all the validators were broken :rolleyes: , there was nothing stopping the 'friend' jumping out at Harcourt and swiping the card. "You must have a valid ticket"

VERYinterested, I think you're a bit of a conspiracy theorist. It was a mate that it happened to, and he genuinely tried to swipe his card at the first reader. It was raining, platform was crowded, and he was late for work, so this is why he got on without swiping.
I'm not condoning travelling without a ticket, and I know there are rules that state what happens if you do. My point is that there should have been a staff member there (possibly with a handheld reader) to point people to other readers. Also it should be possible to pay the fare on the train, and he offered the inspector the 2 euro fare.
If a ticket reader on Dublin bus wasn't working would a person be expected to ring Dublin Bus and stand there while someone came to fix it? Don't think so.

mickoneill30

aka_Ciaran wrote:

It was raining, platform was crowded, and he was late for work, so this is why he got on without swiping.

If only the Luas were a regular tram service. Say once every 5 minutes.
I'm sure Luas don't care if your mate is late for work. That's not their problem. As for offering to pay the €2 fare to the inspector, now if that worked nobody would pay at the machines.

He got on without paying and he got caught. Hard luck. No big deal, just pay the fine and move on. Don't blame the world.

aka_Ciaran wrote:

My point is that there should have been a staff member there (possibly with a handheld reader) to point people to other readers.

Now I'm no rocket scientist but I can find another machine if it's within 10m of the original faulty one. I don't think we should be paying people to stand and point for the terminally dumb.

aka_Ciaran wrote:

If a ticket reader on Dublin bus wasn't working would a person be expected to ring Dublin Bus and stand there while someone came to fix it? Don't think so.

The ticket reader is on the bus. You can point at it if an inspector gets on.

markpb

aka_Ciaran wrote:

My point is that there should have been a staff member there (possibly with a handheld reader) to point people to other readers.

Why should RPA have to pay someone to point out the obvious... if there are four readers, your friend should have had the wit to try some of them.

If a ticket reader on Dublin bus wasn't working would a person be expected to ring Dublin Bus and stand there while someone came to fix it? Don't think so.

If a bus had four ticket readers and one was broken, would your friend expect to get on free there too?

Ham'nd'egger

aka_Ciaran wrote:

VERYinterested, I think you're a bit of a conspiracy theorist. It was a mate that it happened to, and he genuinely tried to swipe his card at the first reader. It was raining, platform was crowded, and he was late for work, so this is why he got on without swiping.
I'm not condoning travelling without a ticket, and I know there are rules that state what happens if you do. My point is that there should have been a staff member there (possibly with a handheld reader) to point people to other readers. Also it should be possible to pay the fare on the train, and he offered the inspector the 2 euro fare.
If a ticket reader on Dublin bus wasn't working would a person be expected to ring Dublin Bus and stand there while someone came to fix it? Don't think so.

To be honest, it is a bit silly to expect a Luas staff member to stand at a ticket machine telling people not to use it! Like, the platforms are not that long, it would take seconds to find another swiper. I hardly use the Luas but know full well to use other ticket machines if the others are busy or broken. In reference to your example of Dublin Bus, the driver will let you travel if you have a weekly/daily ticket that is valid. If it was invalid, you have to pay, simple as, regardless of if the ticket machine is broken.

And I don't agree with taking the fare from an enforcement officer in this case. There was ample way to travel paid up, which wasn't taken.

trellheim

In the days of parking meters The corpo used to put a Red Out-Of-Order Hood on the reader.

My original point was that at the Green [ busiest stn on the Green Line ] they couldn't be arsed to put an out-of-order sign on it.

OP was at fault for not knowing the rules but doesn't excuse crap service from Veolia. A small embedded battery mod on the reader if out-of order should make it blink out-of-order perhaps.

mickoneill30

trellheim wrote:

In the days of parking meters The corpo used to put a Red Out-Of-Order Hood on the reader.

My original point was that at the Green [ busiest stn on the Green Line ] they couldn't be arsed to put an out-of-order sign on it.

Do you not think that somebody should have the brains to use one of the 3 other machines within a couple of metres rather than give up and hop on the tram? Even if he was late for work.
People are way too easy to blame the officials, the company, god, the government whenever they get caught. It's nobodys fault but the guy who didn't pay his fare. It's not hard and if it is too hard maybe he should go out with somebody to look after him.

Edit: On re-reading that I seem cranky. I'm not.

markpb

trellheim wrote:

My original point was that at the Green [ busiest stn on the Green Line ] they couldn't be arsed to put an out-of-order sign on it.

How do you know the meter didn't break just before the Op's friend got to it? Maybe a repair crew were already on their way. Or maybe they should have a staff member at all the stations tapping his test card every few minutes to make sure they're all working? *rolls eyes*

If they only had one card reader per station I'd understand the complaints but there are two or four at every station - they already planned for a breakdown and dealt with it in advance.

A small embedded battery mod on the reader if out-of order should make it blink out-of-order perhaps.

What's a 'battery mod' when it's at home? How would you have an electronic device know when it's out of order? If a card fails, maybe it's just that card? If it's a temporary problem, maybe it'll go away so taking the reader out of service is premature. The easiest solution is to rely on the human brain Mk 1 and have people go to another reader if the one they're at is broken.

steve-o

aka_Ciaran wrote:

he offered the inspector the 2 euro fare

Ah, so he was willing to pay the cash fare when he got caught. That changes everything.

whosedaddy?

the ticket machines where probably busy because other passengers bought their valid tickets before boarding the LUAS - he should have just joined the queue like everyone else.

Also as he was already late for work - why not play by the rules and be a little bit later..

What is it with modern society that nobody takes responsibility for their own actions/mistakes/etc anymore....

Next is someone sues Veolia cause he missed the LUAS (due to out of order SC reader) and gets fired for being late....

aka_Ciaran

steve-o wrote:

Ah, so he was willing to pay the cash fare when he got caught. That changes everything.

Yes he genuinely tried to swipe his card also. All points taken about the consequences of non payment being written on the card literature etc, and also about getting to the other readers. But there was a queue for the ticket machine back almost as far as the first reader, and getting to the 2nd reader on the same side would have meant wading through all those people. Getting to the other side was a pain also with a tram on the other track and also crowds on the other side. I've been in the same situation where a reader wasn't working and it's tempting to say feck it and just jump on.

His / my point is that he's not claiming that he's in the right - he knows he was in the wrong, but it wouldn't have killed Veolia to have one person there directing the human traffic...it's called customer service. And if there was then the sight of a staff member in uniform would probably have made him get to another reader.

The more prominent point of this thread is that having given a false address, what the consequences of this might be. Is it possible that a summons with his name will be sent through the courts, that it will become public somehow, possibly put on a list of non-payers? Also if a summons isn't replied to, do the courts get serious about these and chase them down, send names to the guards etc?

aka_Ciaran

whosedaddy? wrote:

Next is someone sues Veolia cause he missed the LUAS (due to out of order SC reader) and gets fired for being late....

Now there's an idea

If we were in the US then I could actually see something like that happening.

VERYinterested

aka_Ciaran wrote:

The more prominent point of this thread is that having given a false address, what the consequences of this might be. Is it possible that a summons with his name will be sent through the courts, that it will become public somehow, possibly put on a list of non-payers? Also if a summons isn't replied to, do the courts get serious about these and chase them down, send names to the guards etc?

Rather than me being a conspiracy theorist, this is what I was getting at, but I worded it badly. You gave a credit card and are worried if you'll be caught.

Do you really expect a Luas customer service person to stand in the rain all day, while your 'mate' couldn't for 2 minutes?

MarkoP11

Since there is a smartcard involved the Veoila CSO probably took its serial number and thus if the card was registered they know its owners name and address

Its never a good idea to lie, the max fine under the Rail Safety Act is only 1000 euro.

Del2005

aka_Ciaran wrote:

His / my point is that he's not claiming that he's in the right - he knows he was in the wrong, but it wouldn't have killed Veolia to have one person there directing the human traffic...it's called customer service. And if there was then the sight of a staff member in uniform would probably have made him get to another reader.

Why should Veolia pay someone to stand on the platform to scare people into being honest. Your friend chanced his arm and got caught. That is why Veolia have CSO in the 1st place, to catch fare evaders. And it's not in Veolia's interest to baby sit people over to the other card readers when one is down and there are 3 others available as they get paid a bonus for every fare evader they catch.

trellheim

It is perfectly feasible to have a backup in the device to note when the main function is inoperative - and start blinking red or something.


Here is another example. The swipe/tag is an electronic gizmo. You wave your swipe - machine goes bing. However due to a glitch it hasn't properly swiped [ cosmic radiation or whatever ]. How do you know the difference ?

Where is the paper ticket ? there isn't one.

And I think people didn't read my last comment " OP was at fault for not knowing the rules " But my comment re crap cust. service from Veolia remains.

Victor

Trolly, trolly, trolly.

markpb wrote:

What's a 'battery mod' when it's at home? How would you have an electronic device know when it's out of order?

Many computers and similar devices have self diagnostic equipment.

markpb wrote:

It goes as far as to say that if all the card readers are broken, you must ring Veoila and get them to fix it before boarding.

That is a ridiculous policy. What if (like me) you rarely carry change and on your way to work all machines have been broken the night before? Informing Veolia is one thing but being expected to wait for them to fix it is another. (I'm not arguing with you, just saying how bad that is )[/PHONE]Who needs change? You phone them on their freephone number and seek advice.

aka_Ciaran wrote:

But there was a queue for the ticket machine back almost as far as the first reader

So, do you shoplift when there is a queue in Spar?

and getting to the 2nd reader on the same side would have meant wading through all those people. Getting to the other side was a pain also with a tram on the other track and also crowds on the other side.

Can't go around? Even with a wide footpath available?

And if there was then the sight of a staff member in uniform would probably have made him get to another reader.

Does he need reminding to wipe his bottom also?

The more prominent point of this thread is that having given a false address, what the consequences of this might be. Is it possible that a summons with his name will be sent through the courts, that it will become public somehow, possibly put on a list of non-payers? Also if a summons isn't replied to, do the courts get serious about these and chase them down, send names to the guards etc?

They may or may not. However, he will have been noted and is on CCTV.

Del2005 wrote:

And it's not in Veolia's interest to baby sit people over to the other card readers when one is down and there are 3 others available as they get paid a bonus for every fare evader they catch.

Do you have any evidence of this?

trellheim wrote:

And I think people didn't read my last comment " OP was at fault for not knowing the rules " But my comment re crap cust. service from Veolia remains.

Then deal with that as a separate issue.