Winging it

luckat

Our greatest talent in Ireland is winging it - we can produce brilliant work at short notice.

But it's a bit tiresome - or I find it so - that *everything* is done at the last moment. When are we going to learn to produce brilliant work well in advance?

petes

Who said everyone wings it?

Jesus Wept

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lq9KzNOxOw

:eek:

Orange69

luckat wrote:

Our greatest talent in Ireland is winging it - we can produce brilliant work at short notice.

But it's a bit tiresome - or I find it so - that *everything* is done at the last moment. When are we going to learn to produce brilliant work well in advance?

The great producer in the country right now is the building industry, and they consistently produce cheap uninspiring rubbish.. I can see where you are getting the winging part but not the excellence..

luckat

It's my experience. And I think it's a cultural thing to do with our much vaunted post-colonial attitudes. For instance, I deal with work from various organisations in Britain and Ireland.

(I'm being a little unclear here about the kind of work I'm talking about, deliberately, not wanting to drop any individuals in it!)

In Britain, the particular work I'm talking about is sent a fortnight in advance. Whether it arrives is at the mercy of An Post and the British post office.

In Ireland, and this is weird, and why I think the post-colonial experience may be - if not to blame, at least available for blame - if it comes from Protestants it's often timely, whereas the native strain wings it.

Voodu Child

Orange69 wrote:

The great producer in the country right now is the building industry, and they consistently produce cheap uninspiring rubbish.. I can see where you are getting the winging part but not the excellence..

Considering that most construction projects in Ireland:
a) Take ages (hardly 'last minute' stuff)
b) Cost a fortune

I don't see how it's a relevant example tbh.

MarkR

luckat wrote:

Our greatest talent in Ireland is winging it - we can produce brilliant work at short notice.

But it's a bit tiresome - or I find it so - that *everything* is done at the last moment. When are we going to learn to produce brilliant work well in advance?

This post seems poorly planned and rushed. Did you draw an outline for this post? An evening / night course would be good preparation for any good post.

Terry

luckat wrote:

Our greatest talent in Ireland is winging it - we can produce brilliant work at short notice.

But it's a bit tiresome - or I find it so - that *everything* is done at the last moment. When are we going to learn to produce brilliant work well in advance?

We will produce brilliant work well in advance when we learn to bend space and time.

Terry

voodoo_child wrote:

Considering that most construction projects in Ireland:
a) Take ages (hardly 'last minute' stuff)
b) Cost a fortune

I don't see how it's a relevant example tbh.

Not to mention that the work itself is designed by architects.
But Orange69 will never let a technicality like that get in the way of a bit of a rant against Ireland.

Orange69

voodoo_child wrote:

Considering that most construction projects in Ireland:
a) Take ages (hardly 'last minute' stuff)
b) Cost a fortune

I don't see how it's a relevant example tbh.

Are you serious?

They cost a fortune because of the massive property bubble not because quality materials and workmanship was involved.. Im pretty sure 90% of property developers in ireland use the cheapest possible materials/labour/plans available to maximize their own profit.. Now there is the odd exception but in general it is all done on the cheap.. Take a drive around Dublin (or any irish city) and you will see some of the most awful cheap rubbish (particularly apartment blocks) available anywhere in the world..

And any projects that take ages are usually due to incompetence as opposed to taking the time to do the job right...

luckat

How did this suddenly become about construction?

Excuse me, I'm scarcely orange!

Orange69

luckat wrote:

How did this suddenly become about construction?

Excuse me, I'm scarcely orange!

Well what exact work were you referring to then?

Terry

Orange69 wrote:

Are you serious?

They cost a fortune because of the massive property bubble not because quality materials and workmanship was involved.. Im pretty sure 90% of property developers in ireland use the cheapest possible materials/labour/plans available to maximize their own profit.. Now there is the odd exception but in general it is all done on the cheap.. Take a drive around Dublin (or any irish city) and you will see some of the most awful cheap rubbish (particularly apartment blocks) available anywhere in the world..

And any projects that take ages are usually due to incompetence as opposed to taking the time to do the job right...

Do you work as one of the following?

• Quality controller
• Building inspector
• Snag lister
• Foreman

Orange69

Terry wrote:

Do you work as one of the following?

• Quality controller
• Building inspector
• Snag lister
• Foreman

No but i do have eyes and a keen interest in architecture..

I dont really want to get into another Terry Vs Orange thing here, but i think its clear that the standard of modern development in Ireland is in general cheap and uninspired...

luckat

I love Ireland - and I'd like to see it becoming a country where people planned, thought, worked, scheduled properly, instead of doing everything as if on the run from pursuing troops. Those days are gone, my friends.

My experience is that if you arrange to collect a package from 90% of Irish firms, when you arrive they'll say "Just wrapping it up now" - and run and get the wrapping paper.

It's all done on a 'let's do the show right here' basis.

6th

luckat wrote:

Our greatest talent in Ireland is winging it - we can produce brilliant work at short notice.

But it's a bit tiresome - or I find it so - that *everything* is done at the last moment. When are we going to learn to produce brilliant work well in advance?

I work in Design & Advertising and you are bang on ... come work for us!

Voodu Child

Orange69 wrote:

Are you serious?

They cost a fortune because of the massive property bubble not because quality materials and workmanship was involved.. Im pretty sure 90% of property developers in ireland use the cheapest possible materials/labour/plans available to maximize their own profit.. Now there is the odd exception but in general it is all done on the cheap.. Take a drive around Dublin (or any irish city) and you will see some of the most awful cheap rubbish (particularly apartment blocks) available anywhere in the world..

And any projects that take ages are usually due to incompetence as opposed to taking the time to do the job right...

Materials are spec'd by the client, ie the person who is paying for the project. I don't see how that can be turned into a rant against Ireland - they build what they want, or what they think there is a demand for.

Workmanship is another pointless rant. A contractor will get hammered by the architect if they build below spec., it's in their interest to build things properly and safely. Minor quality issues such as are covered in a snag list arent exclusive to Ireland :rolleyes:

Projects take ages for dozens of reasons, but I doubt you'd have a clue about any of them tbh. A sweeping 'they take ages cos Irish are crap' certainly isnt the most intelligent argument one could make.

luckat

Leaving aside the side issue of construction - I have little experience of builders, apart from private jobs where I've found that most Irish builders are less qualified, less timely, more tardy, less expert and more liable to overcharge than most eastern Europeans - I'm talking about the general world of work.

I'm not usually so judgmental, but at the moment I'm trying to do a piece of work that relies on various people giving me their own work. The idea that you should prepare a long project a fortnight ahead is met with astonished bafflement.

I just think it's not good for Ireland. The work we produce as a country would be more effective if we were more timely.

Terry

luckat wrote:

Leaving aside the side issue of construction - I have little experience of builders, apart from private jobs where I've found that most Irish builders are less qualified, less timely, more tardy, less expert and more liable to overcharge than most eastern Europeans - I'm talking about the general world of work.

I'm not usually so judgmental, but at the moment I'm trying to do a piece of work that relies on various people giving me their own work. The idea that you should prepare a long project a fortnight ahead is met with astonished bafflement.

I just think it's not good for Ireland. The work we produce as a country would be more effective if we were more timely.

Really?
I've always found it to be quite the opposite.

I've had people ask me to tile a bathroom for them.

I then have to explain how I canot work in the bathroom while the plumber or carpenter is still working there and cannot tile a wall or floor that does not actually exist.
You would be surprised how many people expect miracles from tradesmen.

If the plumber or carpenter is slow, there is nothing I can do about it.

As for rates, you pay for quality.
If the carpentry/ plastering is up to scratch, I would charge less for tiling work as it would be easier for me.

Mahatma coat

So basicly what yer tellin us is that it takes you up to 2 weeks preperation to do something that the average Irish person can just 'wing' on the spot, like , I think theres a reason the colour of envy is green m'boy.




also on teh subject of building standards I have noticed meself that the higher the prices n the market the cheaper teh materials tend to be as its all about bulk, and when times are tight it becomes more about reputation to maintain business, but anyway thats miles OT

Mr. Incognito

I would have to agree with the general rant about everything in Ireland being poorly planned. We have local councellors and TD's selling rezoned land for developers to put huge developments on (with bribed planning permission) and no amenities, not to mention the lack of proper infrastructure, i.e sewerage, roads even in these developments. That's on the larger scale. On the governmental scale we have a penalty points system that took two years to catch up with the law change and people appealling their points got off scot free as their cases weren't called. We have knee-jerk reaction public service and politicians. (The Sexual Offences Act 2006 for the C case being an example)
We have no social cohension, planning or identitiy. We have an "us" verses them chip on our shoulder. Whether them be the boss looking for that report, the gardai, the irish rugby team, the driver in the wrong lane beside us etc etc We have no consideration for anybody but ourselves and shows which highlight our own stupidity like the X factor where people queue and beg to be exploited for "fame" without work or talent are popular crap.

Dalfiatach

luckat wrote:

I love Ireland - and I'd like to see it becoming a country where people planned, thought, worked, scheduled properly, instead of doing everything as if on the run from pursuing troops. Those days are gone, my friends.

I've been living down here for 16 years now, and I can conclusively state that extensive research has revealed that you Free Staters are all feckin mad.

Ye babble on about being a revolutionary nation, cheering "IRA!" in the middle of the Fields Of Athenry when you have a few jars on board. Ye constantly talk and act as if the entire country was still on the run and in hiding from hordes of redcoats. None of ye seem to have realised that the Brits left 87 years ago. At the very same time, ye all go all revisionista Cruiser/Harrisesque with a strong strain of paranoid anti-Nordie sentiment whenever the North is mentioned.

FF in particular make me want to puke, always wrapping the Green Flag round them and wibbling about being a "republican" party, and always putting on the beal bocht claiming to be the poor downtrodden heroic working-man's rebels against the rich Establishment. FF are the Establishment FFS. Wake the fúck up, people.

You meekly let yourselves be ripped off, gouged, conned and frankly taken for utter mugs by a small entrenched parasite class...and yer grateful that they allow you to live in a badly-built shoebox 50 miles from work and all your family & friends.

Youse listen indulgently to a cheap grubby third-rate spiv as he mumbles incoherent explanations for a few hundred grand "resting in his account". He claims memory loss, senility, claims walking around with a suitcase with £50K in cash in the early 90s was "no big deal" and - again with the beal bocht - claims he is being persecuted: and ye all go "Ah poor Bertie, would ye leave the poor fella alone" as if he was the local simple kid being picked on.

Ye let a shower of anti-national traitors, led by a WestBrit tax exile, dominate your media spewing out a torrent of self-loathing shoneen gibberish, always moaning about why we can't see sense and take our rightful place in the world as good little British children.

And ye couldn't plan a piss-up in a brewery.

This country needs to grow up and stop acting like children. Mutha is gone. Get over it.

Mahatma coat

its like this,

Are ya a FiannaFailMan or wha?

luckat

No, my dear Mahatma. I'm saying that Irish people (including myself) are very good at producing *good* work by winging it.

In some cases this is fine. Some work should be done right up to the moment.

But in a lot of cases we rely on our talent for winging it for jobs that we might do *superbly* if we did them in advance, with preparation and planning - but which we only do reasonably well by winging it.

luckat

Incidentally, Dalfiatak, I haven't found Northerners, of either bunker, to be any less winging-it-addicted, or any more intelligently planning forward - or, for that matter, any less corrupt and liable to whinging.

Black Swan

We're in the information age. Everything changes so fast! Yesterday's planning slacker that wings it, is today's "Just-in-Time?" Ha!

luckat

And tomorrow's 'oh-****-I'm-late-again', Blue_Lagoon

Dalfiatach

luckat wrote:

Incidentally, Dalfiatak, I haven't found Northerners, of either bunker, to be any less winging-it-addicted, or any more intelligently planning forward - or, for that matter, any less corrupt and liable to whinging.

True in some ways. The DUP are the North's FF, master clientelists with lots of dodgy links to the construction industry and the ability to wrap the union jack round them to magically deflect all criticism. Sometimes it scares me how similar the cultures of both parties really are :eek:

But Northerners can claim their inability to plan things is due to no history of actually having to run their own affairs before now. Whereas southerners have been in sole charge of their own affairs for over 80 years, but still go on as if the Brits were still here.

luckat

Mind you, I think it's changing - slowly, but maybe a tipping point will come.

When I was a sprog, the concept of punctuality was a distant, misty ideal for most Irish people. Meet you at 7 meant meet you some time in the evening.

Now, it's normal to be punctual, and it's rather looked down on to turn up puffing with excuses, or just to wander in late. I think this has happened only in the last five years.

So maybe planning and pre-preparing will follow.