Let's talk about banning.

FlutterinBantam

My god, does this thread typify of all that is rotten in AH or does it not????

Estaban who I do not like,comes on with some fairly provovative comments and suddenly,instead of arguing with him and tearing holes in his flimsy stance we have the usual suspects baying for him to be banned just because he espouses a view which appears contrary to theirs.

Surprise surprise ,he apparently is banned, and we have the usual suspects gloating about his banning.

Ergo,now we have to ensure we comply with the view of the usual suspects or risk banning which of course will diminish the whole cut and thrust of what used to be a good forum.

I am sorry to say I do not agree with this situation and imho those who bay for people to be banned and then gloat over a banning should themselves be banned.

Stand back a bit and have a look at it.

Dudess

Bantam, Estebancambias was posting offensive and hurtful remarks. And trolling on top of that. Nothing else. Don't worry: as one of those people who expressed my delight in his banning, I can assure you I'm not out to get anyone who has a different point of view to my own. I will, however, object to trolls and nasty pieces of work with nothing better to do than offend people.

Huggles

Dudess wrote:

Bantam, Estebancambias was posting offensive and hurtful remarks. And trolling on top of that. Nothing else. Don't worry: as one of those people who expressed my delight in his banning, I can assure you I'm not out to get anyone who has a different point of view to my own. I will, however, object to trolls and nasty pieces of work with nothing better to do than offend people.

+1

FlutterinBantam

I read his posts and they were no worse or no better than what comes from him always.

His arguments would be relatively easy to deconstruct.

My point is that we should leave moderating to the mods, as I have been told on other fora,and which I agree with.

SimpleSam06

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Estaban who I do not like,comes on with some fairly provovative comments and suddenly,instead of arguing with him and tearing holes in his flimsy stance we have the usual suspects baying for him to be banned just because he espouses a view which appears contrary to theirs.

Surprise surprise ,he apparently is banned, and we have the usual suspects gloating about his banning.

Esteban has been banned from other forums as well, not so much for having unpopular viewpoints, but for trolling, which is to say deliberately picking unpopular viewpoints in order to get a rise out of people, which is against the forum charter. There is no point in arguing with trolls, it's exactly what they want.

If he keeps it up, he may well be sitebanned, and I feel rather strongly that the same would happen in just about any discussion site on the web.

We have protocols and ways of doing things in online discussions which exist in order to prevent said discussions descending into flamewars, making the signal indistinguishable from the noise.

This isn't unpopular viewpoints being run out of the place by the masses, I've held many unpopular viewpoints in AH and other forums on boards in the past, argued my case, and I'm still here.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Ergo,now we have to ensure we comply with the view of the usual suspects or risk banning which of course will diminish the whole cut and thrust of what used to be a good forum.

Signal to noise ratio, see above.

Dudess

Yeah, Esteban really isn't worth arguing with.

FlutterinBantam

I will repeat my point,moderation should be left to the Mods.

People shouldnt be baying for others to be banned and then gloating when the Mod succumbs to their wishes.

Its not the first time I have seen this and I do not like it.

If there is something in the charter which allows this please point it out to me.

SimpleSam06

FlutterinBantam wrote:

People shouldnt be baying for others to be banned and then gloating when the Mod succumbs to their wishes.

While I understand your reasons for saying that, its not a case of masses picking on a defenceless poster. Esteban has repeatedly irritated and upset many people around here, and making a comment like "all poor people are scumbags" is textbook trolling.

Things are done like this for good reason.

FlutterinBantam wrote:

If there is something in the charter which allows this please point it out to me.

Making the natives restless
- This is a catch-all rule for general trolling, bitching and similar. Certain posters have an ability to piss off large quanties of regulars on here. If a moderator feels that said poster is doing this intentionally or is the cause of the mess, then the poster can and will be banned.

Terry

FlutterinBantam wrote:

My god, does this thread typify of all that is rotten in AH or does it not????

Estaban who I do not like,comes on with some fairly provovative comments and suddenly,instead of arguing with him and tearing holes in his flimsy stance we have the usual suspects baying for him to be banned just because he espouses a view which appears contrary to theirs.

Surprise surprise ,he apparently is banned, and we have the usual suspects gloating about his banning.

Ergo,now we have to ensure we comply with the view of the usual suspects or risk banning which of course will diminish the whole cut and thrust of what used to be a good forum.

I am sorry to say I do not agree with this situation and imho those who bay for people to be banned and then gloat over a banning should themselves be banned.

Stand back a bit and have a look at it.

Not that I have to justify my actions, but here goes.

Do you honestly think I banned him because people were baying for it?

He had been warned bofore about posting in that manner.
We keep track of people who have been warned.

I suggest you take your own advice and Stand back a bit and have a look at it.

There were several reported posts regarding his comments.
We would be neglectful not to check them out.
Having read the whole thread and assessed the situation, I decided that a one week ban was in order.

As for the gloating: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54003571&postcount=58
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53839555&postcount=525

Any further problems can be discussed in feedback.

Dudess

Yeah, posters are given the option to report bad posts anyway, so mods actually need their input.

Terry

Posts split from original thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055154349

FlutterinBantam

Dudess wrote:

Yeah, posters are given the option to report bad posts anyway, so mods actually need their input.

No problem with people reporting "their opinion of bad posts"

No problem with leaving it to the relevant Mod to sort it out.

Have a problem with people urging Mods to ban people and then gloating.

Thats about it.

Link refers to reply to me in the radio forum,note reference to back seat modding.

Some dude called me a "gimp" and I suggested he wouldn't 20 posts.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54054701&postcount=28

Sonnenblumen

FlutterinBantam wrote:

No problem with people reporting "their opinion of bad posts"

No problem with leaving it to the relevant Mod to sort it out.

Have a problem with people urging Mods to ban people and then gloating.

Thats about it.

Link refers to reply to me in the radio forum,note reference to back seat modding.

Some dude called me a "gimp" and I suggested he wouldn't 20 posts.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54054701&postcount=28

FB - absolutely agree with your points. The place has Mods for banning but lots of banshees to urge the Mods.

IMO contra views are typically handled with derision and no one seems to tackle the banshees even when insulting posts are reported.

Terry

Can you cite some examples, please?

Sonnenblumen

I've reported posts on a number of occasions and never seen a response.

Proof will be on the logs. On the otherhand if you have proof to prove that reporting posts works, well I and probably others would be interested to see.

AlmightyCushion

Sonnenblumen wrote:

I've reported posts on a number of occasions and never seen a response.

Proof will be on the logs. On the otherhand if you have proof to prove that reporting posts works, well I and probably others would be interested to see.

Mythology forum gets riddled with spam. Thanks to the report post button it's dealt with farily sharpish.

Edit: All the Dublin threads that get reported in AH is another. In the boxing forum there was someone trolling for four days without anyone reporting the posts, someone eventually reported it and it was dealt with in no time.

Karoma

FlutterinBantam wrote:

No problem with people reporting "their opinion of bad posts"

No problem with leaving it to the relevant Mod to sort it out.

Have a problem with people urging Mods to ban people and then gloating.

As do I. There are so many ways to report nd discuss problematic users / issues without being the smug-little-****-of-the-class.

Your feedback has been noted. However, I would like to know what you think the solution is. We warn users in the thread and via PM and Terry has made a point of it before by reducing the length of a ban... I'm running out of ideas. Unless, of course, you want us to ban everyone - we don't like banning people unless they're a persistent or serious pain in the ass - estewotsit is one of these people. His posts were in keeping with all of his others-correct. We let an awful lot slide on the basis that we don't want to be ban-happy but it was clear from a lot of users that he is not wanted there. He was not banned for simply holding contrary views or because they were daft (If you read AH, you'll know this is common) but rather that he held very daft contrary views each and every time with the obvious aim of stirring **** (Read: Troll.)

sonnebum:
We note every Reported Post in AH. We may discuss it in the Reported Posts forum. This forum and the reports are private (To protect the rat reporter). We often PM the reported to discuss the matter. We're a little too busy to send a PM to every reported post, however. If you can cite any example, I'll look into it and try discussing it (Perhaps via PM)
As above, however, we tend to let a lot of stuff slide and monitor the situation - so we're not banning and deleting and locking everyone and everything. Just because a report is not acted upon immediately does not mean that it will not be acted on eventually. Keep reporting.

FlutterinBantam

Karoma, I would have very little issue with that post or your general logic.

I brought this issue up for one reason only, and that is the situation of other posters urging mods to ban people and then gloating when the deed is done.

I have seen several instances of this from the same people and feel it should be tackled.

99% of the time AH is run very well and I have no axe to grind there,however this new(to me anyway) practice needs to be looked at and despite the "eccentricity" of the poster in question,the mods are well cabable of handling it.

TSubh Dearg promised me a weeks ban on the radio forum for far less,citing back seat modding on my behalf.
I accept that AH may be a little more diverse and volatile but thats my two cent worth anyway

Dudess

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Ergo,now we have to ensure we comply with the view of the usual suspects or risk banning which of course will diminish the whole cut and thrust of what used to be a good forum.

Isn't that a rather melodramatic thing to say?

Dave!

Esteban is a troll.

FlutterinBantam

Would appear the mods have already concluded that .

Sonnenblumen

Karoma wrote:

sonnebum:
We note every Reported Post in AH. We may discuss it in the Reported Posts forum. This forum and the reports are private (To protect the rat reporter). We often PM the reported to discuss the matter. We're a little too busy to send a PM to every reported post, however. If you can cite any example, I'll look into it and try discussing it (Perhaps via PM)
As above, however, we tend to let a lot of stuff slide and monitor the situation - so we're not banning and deleting and locking everyone and everything. Just because a report is not acted upon immediately does not mean that it will not be acted on eventually. Keep reporting.

karobum: sounds more like an excuse than an approach. The point is all about being visible ie being seen to do something about those posters baying for banning and also being seen to do something about reported posts. The claim to being 'busy' is hardly acceptable for the lack of visible follow through.

Interesting that you connect RAT with reporter? Surely the culprit would be the RAT??

Karoma

The options we have available to provide visible follow through are direct PM's and posting in the thread.
When we post in threads we risk the thread going off-topic there, or generating further Reports and Feedback threads for being FASCISTS.
When we PM - you won't see it.

*sigh*

We respond to the majority of reported posts, one way or another. Please feel free to keep on making the mountain. I'll be responding to more reasonable posters now...

Karoma

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Karoma, I would have very little issue with that post or your general logic.

I brought this issue up for one reason only, and that is the situation of other posters urging mods to ban people and then gloating when the deed is done.

I have seen several instances of this from the same people and feel it should be tackled.

99% of the time AH is run very well and I have no axe to grind there,however this new(to me anyway) practice needs to be looked at and despite the "eccentricity" of the poster in question,the mods are well cabable of handling it.

TSubh Dearg promised me a weeks ban on the radio forum for far less,citing back seat modding on my behalf.
I accept that AH may be a little more diverse and volatile but thats my two cent worth anyway

It has been noted. I want to take the monitor-and-decide approach (I want to see over an extended period whether it will remain an issue, and what the root cause is (It could be a by-product of the current system - where a lot of users see Moderations as some sort of teacher figure or some crap...)
Bottom line: Feedback and issue noted. We will work something out... Keep the feedback coming. Especially if you have any suggestions re: possible solutions

mikemac

Just want to say the Reporting Posts button realy works.
I've reported posts the odd time, maybe 3 times in the last two months and mainly in Work forum and a mod took action within two hours and sometimes immediately.

So fair play

bonkey

Am I understanding correctly that a mod split this off from an AH thread and move it to Feedback?

If so, isn't it a case of a user complaining in the wrong place and wrong manner about how bad it is that other users are complaining in the wrong place and in the wrong manner.

homah_7ft

Karoma wrote:

It has been noted. I want to take the monitor-and-decide approach (I want to see over an extended period whether it will remain an issue, and what the root cause is (It could be a by-product of the current system - where a lot of users see Moderations as some sort of teacher figure or some crap...)
Bottom line: Feedback and issue noted. We will work something out... Keep the feedback coming. Especially if you have any suggestions re: possible solutions

Feedback at it's best. Genuine concern followed by genuine consideration of issue. Nice one lads.:cool:

FlutterinBantam

bonkey wrote:

Am I understanding correctly that a mod split this off from an AH thread and move it to Feedback?

If so, isn't it a case of a user complaining in the wrong place and wrong manner about how bad it is that other users are complaining in the wrong place and in the wrong manner.

Spot on bonkey...guilty as charged....not quite as bad as that ,but my fault.

I fcuked up there and Terry had to split it off... thats the read man:o

cson

Another reoccurance of muppetry; http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055157669

I mean I can tolerate opinions that are backed up reasonably and in a proper manner. That is just mindless in my opinion. It's not attacking the poster but the posts, they are some of the most mindless posts I've ever read.

It brings up a curious situation, is the aforementioned muppet simply trying to troll, to get the rise out of other users for his own warped pleasure or is it evidence of a larger problem on said users part with regard to various socio-demographic groups?

Personally I'd imagine most users on this board would say that it would be a troll if say that user had only a double digit post count <100 posts. This user has nearly 900, it raises the question that if he/she wanted to troll would they go to such lengths? Myself I think not, I think there is a deeply rooted hatred of certain groups at the heart of the issue.

It's not that I have a problem with people deviating from the general consensus and opinion on certain issues it's the extent to which this user has taken it.

Uh end of spiel, sorry if it sounds very ambiguous.

nesf

Eh, I've already permanently banned him.

I think AH and him are better off separated lest he gets himself sitebanned. That and the last thread was the straw that broke the camel's back imho.

Terry

Good call on that, nesf.

SimpleSam06

cson wrote:

Personally I'd imagine most users on this board would say that it would be a troll if say that user had only a double digit post count <100 posts. This user has nearly 900, it raises the question that if he/she wanted to troll would they go to such lengths? Myself I think not, I think there is a deeply rooted hatred of certain groups at the heart of the issue.

You'd be surpised at the lengths some people will go to in trolling. Its considered quite the art form in some circles. Theres even a loose association of internet trolls, with their own website (offensive NSFW).

I've seen some remarkably complex trolls in my travels as well, one fellow went so far as to mirror a site that was overloaded, a site with an image gallery, and set up a script to randomly replace the images in the large thumbnail gallery with goatse when you clicked on them. Click on the same image again, it came up fine. He managed to pull that troll off in about four minutes, and actually got some people banned from the forum linking for complaining he was trolling.

That esteban managed to accrue so many posts merely means he was a good troll. In fact, I'm sure if he's reading this thread, he's probably delighted with the confusion and discussion his posts have created.

MrJoeSoap

I think we'll let FlutterinBantam have the last word on this one...

Dudess

I agree with SimpleSam. Estebancambias referred to people with an intellectual disability as "brain-dead retards" for ****'s sake.

FlutterinBantam

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I think we'll let FlutterinBantam have the last word on this one...

:eek: I can't speak,I'm Julep'd, three sheets to the wind!!!

I cannot be my usual erudite and concise self.

SimpleSam06

Dudess wrote:

I agree with SimpleSam. Estebancambias referred to people with an intellectual disability as "brain-dead retards" for ****'s sake.

Indeed. I don't think boards has really seen the level and elaborate schemes of trolling that some sites have experienced in the past. Hopefully we won't see any more of it either.

Dudess

A pipe dream I'd say...