Small Pair, FT, Optimal play:?

connie147

Final table of a live tournament. 6 players left.(decent money for top 2).

Blinds 2,000-4,000
Hero (utg) with 55 stack-53k
utg+1--17k
cut-off--58k
button--50k
small blind--60k
big blind--28k

The hand played out by hero raising to 13k, folded to the BB who pushed for 28k, called by hero, BB had KK and doubled through.

When discussing the game afterwards with a friend of mine(we regularly discuss different scenarios of how certain hands are played),he reckoned this was the hand that lost the tourney for me as I was in push or fold mould after losing the hand and lost my next race. He,s addamant that open limping here and folding to a raise is the best play but I think thats horrendous with 6 players left. I dont think open folding is an option. Is anyone out there more in favour of a raise to 10k so that less is put at risk and easier to get away from?

So whats your optimal play in the above scenario?

ianmc38

id raise smaller preflop. im experimenting with 2.5bb late in tourneys with shallow stacks in relation to the blinds.

With the raise, the hand played itself out. I couldnt fold ATC for 15k more unless the guy is very tight and is never pushing anything but overpairs

connie147

[38]id raise smallQUOTE=ianmcer preflop. im experimenting with 2.5bb late in tourneys with shallow stacks in relation to the blinds.

With the raise, the hand played itself out. I couldnt fold ATC for 15k more unless the guy is very tight and is never pushing anything but overpairs[/QUOTE]

Hi Ian,
Yup, I agree. The hand played itself out.I was never fodling for the extra 15k. But if I had raised to 10k theres a chance I would have got away from it. U raising here utg everytime when 6 handed with 55?

ianmc38

Yes. I would never fold a pair 6 handed.

Goodluck2me

i hope you argeed with your friend and hoped that he would make plently of final tables with you to be polite, as his advice is terrible imo. if someone if so tight that they only raise when you are crushed then you should be MORE likely to raise into them than less likely, its like free money.
you can fold there if you felt youd get better joy from raising and people folding although i dont recommend it as people should be more push happy over your raises if you fold for such a small amount.
when 6 handed its normally the aggressor that triumphs and open raising is the best way to gain chips.

mdwexford

I agree with Ian re the raise, i usually make it 2.5 bb's when the stacks are shallow but even if you make it 10k you still have to call a 28k shove. 40k in the middle and its 18k to call, 2.2/1.

Limp folding here is horrible.

connie147

mdwexford wrote:

I agree with Ian re the raise, i usually make it 2.5 bb's when the stacks are shallow but even if you make it 10k you still have to call a 28k shove. 40k in the middle and its 18k to call, 2.2/1.

Limp folding here is horrible.

Yes MD, im not folding to the BB regardless of the sized raise in the example given. But 2.5 bb raise would be better as a general rule of thumb where stacks are not deep.

BobSloane

Ya 2.5 is the way to go I think. Sometimes you will have very weak players in the blinds who will fold to a min-raise and you can take their blinds for the minimum if they are the blinds to your button.
In the example if you make it 10k pre-flop you must call shoves from utg+1 or BB and you can (probably)fold to shoves fom the rest. A pocket pair is a big hand with these blinds and stack sizes. You're only going to get one one hand out of 17 and people will be shoving AT, KQ and a lot worse.


It gets a little more awkward if c/o or button flat call your raise and you have to play a flop! (well not that awkward if a 5 pops up)

What do you do if say c/o opens for 12k and you're in the BB with 55 and you both have ~50-60k? lol crapshootaments

bops

you push PF - it saves alot of thinking & pot-odds and stuff

mrflash

Whats so good about 55 six handed?

opr

I am not so sure that raising in this spot just cause you have a pair is right. I don't think your hand matters that much in this situation. I mean lets say you have 45 i don't think your equity decreases all that much against the kind of range this guy pushes when you have 55.

I may be wrong here as playing short stacked in the later stages of tournaments is not something i have thought about alot but if rasing 55 here is +EV then surely rasing any 2 should be +EV albeit maybe slighly worse.

Is it not more important at this stage when we are not deep stacked with high blinds to anyalse the sitution and find plus EV spots regarless of cards.

So if we do raise UTG here its cause we think this is a +EV spot and not cause we have 55 because as i said against his pushing range we may as well have any2 more or less.

So in effect we are just hoping the blinds fold which makes it just a steal attempt and surely we can find better spots than stealing UTG.

Pick holes at will

Opr

White Knight

opr wrote:

I am not so sure that raising in this spot just cause you have a pair is right.

How would you play it mate? It is an interesting situation.

opr

White Knight wrote:

How would you play it mate? It is an interesting situation.

I don't feel right saying it but i think folding > raising.

I will put it this way if this post was exactly the same only he raised 4,5 UTG surely he would be told that unless the table is very tight that this is not good play.

Yet his equity against the kind of range that pushes will be close to that of a hand like 55. I do realise that the equity with 55 will be a bit better but i don't think that we make this a +EV spot from our equity against his pushing range as we are more or less going to be offered pot odds on the call in the neighbourhood of what we need. So we make money mostly when everyone folds.

This means i come back to saying we are just stealing which surely is not good UTG

Any thoughts yourself ?

Opr

White Knight

opr wrote:

Any thoughts yourself ?

I used to be an advocate of limping and folding to a raise in this situation.

But learning the hard way - in a short handed situation it is all about aggression. You need to be the aggressor at the table. 6 handed it is unlikely that another pocket pair is out there so by being aggressive, it will usually take the blinds at this stage. 6k in blinds is 3M for the shorty at the table - in other words is a big enough amount in relation to moving up the pay scale.

It does depend on the dynamics of the table. OP does not give any reads on the players but if it is a tight table, then I think its a good move to raise 2.5BB as mentioned above but if it is a looser table I like the OP raise of 15k. I think it rules out the likelihood of players wanting to risk getting in to a (unknown) possible race situation with mid/big A or even pushing over the top with a small PP. And if you can pick the spots right .. i.e. tight players in the blinds etc. .. then the times where a big hand wakes up behind < amount of times you pick up the blinds.

I think right move but just got unlucky to find a bigger PP behind.

opr

White Knight wrote:

it will usually take the blinds at this stage. 6k in blinds is 3M for the shorty at the table - in other words is a big enough amount in relation to moving up the pay scale.

White Knight wrote:

And if you can pick the spots right .. i.e. tight players in the blinds etc. .. then the times where a big hand wakes up behind < amount of times you pick up the blinds.

This means you are replying on your fold equity against the rest of the table to make money. When someone actually shoves over your raise the fact you have 55 is of little importance as if you assign this guy a range your equity against this range won't be a hugely different than if you had more or less any2.

My point is that this all means that in effect you are stealing as our objective is to take down the blinds. Surely stealing UTG is pretty bad here.

Maybe 44 plays better against Villians range than i am giving it credit for but i am too tired to go working it out now.

Opr

White Knight

opr wrote:

My point is that this all means that in effect you are stealing as our objective is to take down the blinds. Surely stealing UTG is pretty bad here.

I agree but is that not why the move looks stronger than it is? Why would a decent player try steal utg in this situation?

opr

White Knight wrote:

I agree but is that not why the move looks stronger than it is? Why would a decent player try steal utg in this situation?

Have you not heard that UTG is the new button

I am not saying that raising is -EV it may well be plus EV to raise in this spot but i am making the point that i don't think we should be auto raising here just because we have a pair.

You should be raising here for the exact type of reason that you pointed out above. PLayers may respect the raise more from UTG , the table has been very tight , you have a very good image , the guy in the BB and SB are tight. If this is why your raising the fact that you have 55 is irrelevant.

Opr

White Knight

opr wrote:

You should be raising here for the exact type of reason that you pointed out above. PLayers may respect the raise more from UTG , the table has been very tight , you have a very good image , the guy in the BB and SB are tight. If this is why your raising the fact that you have 55 is irrelevant.

QFT

I guess as you said previously then it all depends whether 55 > than ATC vs the oponents possible calling range :rolleyes:

Its late, one of the morning guys will do the figures! gl

McWager

opr wrote:

I am not so sure that raising in this spot just cause you have a pair is right. I don't think your hand matters that much in this situation. I mean lets say you have 45 i don't think your equity decreases all that much against the kind of range this guy pushes when you have 55.

I may be wrong here as playing short stacked in the later stages of tournaments is not something i have thought about alot but if rasing 55 here is +EV then surely rasing any 2 should be +EV albeit maybe slighly worse.

Is it not more important at this stage when we are not deep stacked with high blinds to anyalse the sitution and find plus EV spots regarless of cards.

So if we do raise UTG here its cause we think this is a +EV spot and not cause we have 55 because as i said against his pushing range we may as well have any2 more or less.

So in effect we are just hoping the blinds fold which makes it just a steal attempt and surely we can find better spots than stealing UTG.

Pick holes at will

Opr

I agree pretty strongly with this and think its a pretty important principle in tournament poker. I think a fold is absolutely fine here and I would definitely fold if
a) the table in general was aggro/crazy
b) the big stacks were tricky/aggro(ie scandies) and likely to flat call here even with the stack sizes and make you play a flop

the difference between 55 and 45 here is not as huge as most think, although it does count for something when a shortie wakes up with overcards and some other less frequent situations

I would still raise 2.5x here tho because of the stack size of bb unless (a) or (b) above hold.
Late on it is all about playing preflop and flop as there isnt much chips left to play later streets - therefore you are looking to take it down before or after flop, mostly on a bluff, and mostly paying more attention to situations than cards.
You are mostly doing it from lp tho, so making a semi bluff utg with 55 with shortie on bb has merit

raise2.5x> fold >>> raise more >>>>>>>>>>>> limp-fold

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

opr

McWager wrote:

You are mostly doing it from lp tho, so making a semi bluff utg with 55 with shortie on bb has merit

Yeah i can see that i tried messing with some maths but its fairly complicated situation and i couldn't assign alot of stuff that would be factors involved in if its +EV.

I really think that folding and raising are very close.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

In practice, I know that I am making it 10k to play here, and calling the shove. Because you need the precious blinds given the overall tournament situation (winning the blinds increases your stack size by more than 10%); and a pair six handed is a pretty good hand.

See i think this is wrong Lloyd your raising here and a large part of your thinking is that you have a pair. I think that us having 55 here has very little to do with this being a profitable spot to raise.

Opr

fuzzbox

I really think you could fold 55 here utg and not think twice about it.

If you were in CO/BTN then I like to make a move here.

DeVore

Do you know what, Connie... I dont know

I can see an argument for dumping the hand, but it seems like weak play. I agree with OPR in so much as raising here to take the blinds can be done with any hand. You are no better off with 55 vs KK then you are with 4,7 vs KK.

http://twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b=&d=&h=5d+5c%0D%0AKh+kd

http://twodimes.net/poker/?g=h&b=&d=&h=4h+7h%0D%0AKh+kd

So really, thats dodging the question of the correct play with 5,5 specifically.
Folding avoids a hand that could be a major mistake or a minor victory. I dont like it but perhaps discretion is the better part of valour. I dont like folding, but then maybe I am wrong.

If we aren't going to fold because we dont like the spot, then what ARE we going to do. We could limp but then we need a plan for what happens next. We could limp trap (not something I have seen mentioned above). ie: Limp hoping that one of the two short stacks comes over the top on a steal or with big cards and we coin flip with him because we want to shoot for 1st or 2nd prize and the risk is worth the chips. "in it to win it" etc.
If we dont get a reraise then we play it for set value (or a flop like 234, I mean, we can always dream right?). No set, no bet and we get away from it cheap. In the situation I think I like this line best but it still stinks, being honest.

The third option is raise, either a partial raise, or all in. Partial raise will either be seen a huge strength utg and will take the blinds, and you could do it with any two (see above). Or it will be snapped off. So whats our plan if we are reraised by a big tank... fold? Ugh.
And by a small tank? Call.... hmmm... I dont like the odds of getting a reraise from a small tank where we are in anyway good... probably worse then getting moved in on when we have just limped. I dont like risking 10-15k to be snapped off by an agrro big tank.

All In? Why particularly 55? Why particularly now? Whats the intention? I dont like this, it risks 50k to get 6k on the hope that 5 people have missed a 1 in ~30 shot (lets say they will only call with the upper half of the pairs and AK). That's not bad odds but its not sustainable (they are going to call if you keep doing it). So its an option but I dont really like this approach either.

So, in summation. I don't know! Half of me says "dump it, you cant make a bad mistake with a hand in the muck" but I hate that half.

Half says "limp and fold/call depending".

I think it really depends on how the table is playing and whether you are likier to get a reraise with overcards from the smaller stacks if you limp or if you raise.

I hate this spot but thats my thinking on it.

DeV.

Van Dice

I would prob fold here, but I can't imagine raise/call is a bad line to take.

I disagree a lot that 55 is even close to 54o though, look at your equity v a shoving range!

opr

Van Dice wrote:

I would prob fold here, but I can't imagine raise/call is a bad line to take.

I disagree a lot that 55 is even close to 54o though, look at your equity v a shoving range!

Yeah i did have a look at that VD and i know its not as close as i am making it out to be

I did exaggerate the point to try and make it more clear what i am trying to show.

My problem here is that i think the logistics of the hand and this particular table dynamic have contrived to make a situation where raise/call is probably ok EV wise but i think in general that in similar situations that if someone was to raise 55 UTG it would be -EV. Its the situation that may be slightly +EV here more than the line we take with a particular hand like 55 UTG in this kind of shallow stacked, high blind end of tournament enviroment.

I am not sure if i am explaining that well !!

Opr

Van Dice

opr wrote:

Yeah i did have a look at that VD and i know its not as close as i am making it out to be

I did exaggerate the point to try and make it more clear what i am trying to show.

My problem here is that i think the logistics of the hand and this particular table dynamic have contrived to make a situation where raise/call is probably ok EV wise but i think in general that in similar situations that if someone was to raise 55 UTG it would be -EV. Its the situation that may be slightly +EV here more than the line we take with a particular hand like 55.

I am not sure if i am explaining that well !!

Opr

I see what you mean, I'm just a pedant! I agree with you though fwiw

mrflash

I dont see 55 as playable utg six handed with high blinds.
And i also dont agree with calling the allin as a must, you may consider the value you are getting, but you must also consider your stack size and the situation you are left in if you lose the hand.
You fold here you have 40k left and you are still in reasonable shape, but you lose and you are shortstacked and only have a small number of hands left before you have to shove.
Of course if you felt you were ahead then that does make a difference but you must have known that at the very least you were racing against two overcards.