Company Provided Parking in Dublin

Davidth88

I took the bus into Dublin twice this week ( I work in Park-West so I usually don't do into town ).

Something occured to me as I sat in the queues watching the people darting in/out/blocking the buslanes.

How many of those commuters sitting in their cars have car parking provided ?
I know at least 3 people who drive in , and complain about the traffic , but when I say ' why don't you use the bus/train ?' they say ...oh we get free parking . Now in all these cases the bus/train would be a good alternative. I do understand this is not always the case of course.

Now we have the green party involved in the gvmt , perhaps the time is right to tax people for their parking spaces in central Dublin as a BIK ( Benifit in kind ) ? The money should then be ringfenced for public transport , rather like the congestion charge in London.

What do people think ?

Doodah7

Davidth88 wrote:

I
Now we have the green party involved in the gvmt , perhaps the time is right to tax people for their parking spaces in central Dublin as a BIK ( Benifit in kind ) ? The money should then be ringfenced for public transport , rather like the congestion charge in London.

What do people think ?

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, with one caveat: for many people, driving is the only option, particularly if they live in the 'commuter belt'. Either people get free parking in work based on their address or park and ride facilities need to be provided to allow commuters to leave their car half way and use public transport the rest of the way.

I always wonder why people go through the heartache of sitting in traffic on the N11 every morning when the 46A whizzes by them. I would suspect many people on that road only use their cars because they have parking in the City Centre. Not that I have ANY sympathy for them.

Ham'nd'egger

At times, "I have free parking" or "I need my car for work" should read "I don't do public transport".

Certainly, a lot of people will need cars for work; the sales reps, public health nurses, site visitors etc of the world, but I can't be too sure that ALL of them need their cars and we know all too well that many people feel they are somehow above public transport. As it is, we get tax relief on annual travel schemes; BIK on parking spaces is not far away, especially as spaces sell and rent for a small fortune and are often used as perks for some jobs. I used to work with a woman who used to justify her allocation of a parking space on the grounds that buses were utterly unreliable for her commute and that they didn't serve her area in order to get her in by 8AM, or occasionally a little earlier. Her commute was Marino to Abbey Street. I am sure we all know more like her.

OTK

Davidth88 wrote:

perhaps the time is right to tax people for their parking spaces in central Dublin as a BIK ( Benifit in kind ) ?

This proposal was blocked in the past by the Dept of Finance and the Revenue as 'unworkable'. They will never allow it because they would lose their own free parking on Kildare Street and Dame Street.

Fratton Fred

At Vodafone's head office in Newbury, they were only allowed 1800 parking spaces for a site employing 3000 people, so they had to lay on a bus service from the town centre. If you gave up your parking space and used the bus, you were given £50 per month compensation. Also, apart from a few parking spaces reserved for group directors (only about 10) there is no reserved parking unless you sign up fo car share. Basically if two people have a parking space, they can give up one and share with someone else, both people get a monthly bonus and they also get reserved parking in rime parking spots. Anyone parking in these spots without a car share sticker gets clapmed, get clamped three times and you loose your right to park in the car park.

I don;t see why an estate like parkwest can't implement something like this, it's not a big campus and it could work quite well.

Trampas

The reason they wont tax parking spots as imagine all the civil servants that would be caught under this tax band would be big. Hence why they wont do it. I agree that it should be done.

Davidth88

Trampus/otk.....

Actually , by now we were meant to have very few civil servants in Dublin weren't we ?

I had them in mind when I posted this to a great extent .

There are of course some people who have no public transport alternative , and some thought will have to be put in place.

But think of the extra revenue, and if you ring fence it ........

In London since they did this with the congestion charge the change is noticable , for example all kids under 12 now get free travel

mikemac

Yep, I'll think you'll find that civil servents will be a major stunbling block for this proposal. It makes sense to have to pay BIK for a free parking space but there's bound to be opposition

Lol at the women who drives from Marino to Abbey St. Sure you could walk that in around 25 minutes.:rolleyes:

Ham'nd'egger

micmclo wrote:

Lol at the women who drives from Marino to Abbey St. Sure you could walk that in around 25 minutes.:rolleyes:

I will give you 3 guesses as to her occupation, and it is one mentioned above

John R

By far the biggest provider of free staff parking in the city centre are the various government departments.

I would say that there are not many companies that provide extensive parking for general staff except for the civil service, in most of the companies I have dealt with there are a small number of spaces reserved for the directors and executives only.

Hotblack Desiato

John R wrote:

By far the biggest provider of free staff parking in the city centre are the various government departments.

Perhaps, I don't know, but it is a fact that (depending on location) only one-third to one-quarter of Dublin-city-based civil servants have car parking. (Edit: so much so that one of the "carrots" being dangled in front of would-be decentralisers is the promise of parking spaces on demand.)

The tax proposal is a good one, but what do you do when a space doesn't "belong" to one person? If it's shared on a rota you could tax people 50% or 33% etc. of the BIK (at the cost of greatly increasing the admin workload) but what if it's first-come-first-served?

The real answer is to just have congestion charging.

NewDubliner

Most civil servants don't drive to work although they may have to once their jobs are moved out of Dublin.

The problem with taxing the spaces would be all the red tape involved in certifying who needed a space for work-related-duties and who did not. For example, technicians going out on call, auditors, sales reps etc.

Bluetonic

There is actually a lot of free parking in and around the city.

_Kaiser_

micmclo wrote:

Yep, I'll think you'll find that civil servents will be a major stunbling block for this proposal. It makes sense to have to pay BIK for a free parking space but there's bound to be opposition

Lol at the women who drives from Marino to Abbey St. Sure you could walk that in around 25 minutes.:rolleyes:

Maybe she could, but why SHOULD she? Just as you have the right to choose to walk, or cycle, or use public transport, the rest of us have the equal right NOT to - ESPECIALLY when the public transport alternatives (for the majority of people in this city, not to mention COUNTRY) are so poor.

As I mentioned in another recent thread, the Irish motorist pays a fortune for the "privilege" of owning his/her own car (fuel costs, maintenance, VRT, insurance, tax etc). I'd say in most cases it's because they have no other VIABLE alternative, or because they need the car for their work (sales rep etc). Why should they be further punished for the lack of forward planning shown by successive governments, local authorities and CIE?

Despite what some people here seem to think, it's not wrong for people to own cars, nor to expect to be able to use them freely. The reality is, as I said in that other thread too, is that public transport DOES NOT WORK in this country.

The government has no real interest in making it work (obviously, besides they'd lose all that tax revenue I mentioned above), the local authorities are only concerned with "quick fix" solutions that look good, but ultimately cause more hassle and stress for everyone (the proposed 30 km/h limit in the city centre area being a case in point), and CIE.. well seeing as they can't even manage to run the services they have properly, what hope would there be if even 50% of current car users made the switch in the morning?

Until that changes, people will continue to drive and they are perfectly entitled (I'd actually say more entitled under the circumstances) to do so.

cyclopath2001

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Maybe she could, but why SHOULD she? Just as you have the right to choose to walk, or cycle, or use public transport, the rest of us have the equal right NOT to - ESPECIALLY when the public transport alternatives (for the majority of people in this city, not to mention COUNTRY) are so poor.

This is true up to a point, but do car drivers really need to waste so much space while doing so?

Let's use the roadspace more efficiently.

KC61

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Maybe she could, but why SHOULD she? Just as you have the right to choose to walk, or cycle, or use public transport, the rest of us have the equal right NOT to - ESPECIALLY when the public transport alternatives (for the majority of people in this city, not to mention COUNTRY) are so poor.

As I mentioned in another recent thread, the Irish motorist pays a fortune for the "privilege" of owning his/her own car (fuel costs, maintenance, VRT, insurance, tax etc). I'd say in most cases it's because they have no other VIABLE alternative, or because they need the car for their work (sales rep etc). Why should they be further punished for the lack of forward planning shown by successive governments, local authorities and CIE?

Despite what some people here seem to think, it's not wrong for people to own cars, nor to expect to be able to use them freely. The reality is, as I said in that other thread too, is that public transport DOES NOT WORK in this country.

The government has no real interest in making it work (obviously, besides they'd lose all that tax revenue I mentioned above), the local authorities are only concerned with "quick fix" solutions that look good, but ultimately cause more hassle and stress for everyone (the proposed 30 km/h limit in the city centre area being a case in point), and CIE.. well seeing as they can't even manage to run the services they have properly, what hope would there be if even 50% of current car users made the switch in the morning?

Until that changes, people will continue to drive and they are perfectly entitled (I'd actually say more entitled under the circumstances) to do so.

Indeed it is true to say that everyone has a right to have a car but at the end of the day there is a finite amount of space available and if everyone uses their right to drive into Dublin city centre then whatever public transport there is will go nowhere no matter what State policy there is.

At the end of the day it is up to the local authorities, transport companies and the relevant government departments to put together the necessary measures that make public transport a more attractive option. That is easier on certain routes than others (due to roadspace constraints), but a start has been made with the introduction of new more direct and high frequency bus routes such as the 4, 145, 151, and very soon the 128.

Unfortunately enhancements in other areas (Lucan QBC and Swords QBC) are being thwarted due to disputes between operators and the Department of Transport. Again an example of operator focus rather than user.

But back to the example quoted (Marino) - there really is no excuse for that! There are 10 groups of bus routes through Fairview (20B, 27, 27B, 29A, 31/B, 32/A/B, 42, 42A/B, 43, 130) and the 123 through Marino that offer high frequency to/from the City.

murphaph

cyclopath2001 wrote:

This is true up to a point, but do car drivers really need to waste so much space while doing so?

Let's use the roadspace more efficiently.

Indeed. It never fails to amaze me why more people don't get mopeds or bikes. I leave work in Rathfarnham at 1700 and I'm home in Clonsilla at 1735 without fail, using the M50 from J13 to J6. I wonder how long the same journey takes by car? Anybody do something similar on 4 wheels?

Do these people not value their time?

_Kaiser_

murphaph wrote:

Indeed. It never fails to amaze me why more people don't get mopeds or bikes. I leave work in Rathfarnham at 1700 and I'm home in Clonsilla at 1735 without fail, using the M50 from J13 to J6. I wonder how long the same journey takes by car? Anybody do something similar on 4 wheels?

Do these people not value their time?

Given some of the atrocious driving on our roads (as evidenced on the Motors forum), there's no way I'd risk cycling/a motorbike - especially not on the M50

murphaph

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Given some of the atrocious driving on our roads (as evidenced on the Motors forum), there's no way I'd risk cycling/a motorbike - especially not on the M50

Well I can't argue with you there. I've nearly been hit by idiot car/van drivers numerous times. I've only ever been knocked off once by a silly bint who "didn't see me" while I waited at a T junction to turn right into the major road. She was turning right into the minor road and whilst cutting the corner drove straight inot me :rolleyes:

I do drive a car............on saturdays and sundays! rest of the week it sits in the driveway though. I weigh up the risk due to morons in their cocoons, and they are morons, and I decide that it's a risk I'm prepared to take.

The worst morons are the ones who clearly resent my ability to make progress through their traffic jam and procede to 'block' me. Such losers.

Truck drivers generally seem much more aware and tend to make room. Funny how a driver of a 40' artic can make room but a young lady who's just gotten her first micra can't.

_Kaiser_

murphaph wrote:

Well I can't argue with you there. I've nearly been hit by idiot car/van drivers numerous times. I've only ever been knocked off once by a silly bint who "didn't see me" while I waited at a T junction to turn right into the major road. She was turning right into the minor road and whilst cutting the corner drove straight inot me :rolleyes:

I do drive a car............on saturdays and sundays! rest of the week it sits in the driveway though. I weigh up the risk due to morons in their cocoons, and they are morons, and I decide that it's a risk I'm prepared to take.

The worst morons are the ones who clearly resent my ability to make progress through their traffic jam and procede to 'block' me. Such losers.

Truck drivers generally seem much more aware and tend to make room. Funny how a driver of a 40' artic can make room but a young lady who's just gotten her first micra can't.

Now now, I'll agree with you on that last point especially but it'll only get us into trouble with the PC Patrol!

9 time out of 10 though (in my experience), whenever you see someone do something stupid on the road, it's a woman (eyes facing rigidly forward, clinging to the steering wheel as if afraid the car is gonna get away from her).

Of course, men take more risks (speeding, dangerous overtaking etc) but they're generally more in control of the car, know its dimensions and more spatially aware than their female counterparts.

Hotblack Desiato

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Given some of the atrocious driving on our roads (as evidenced on the Motors forum), there's no way I'd risk cycling/a motorbike - especially not on the M50

This is a vicious circle. Cars make the roads more dangerous for cyclists, pedestrians and motorcyclists, so some of them switch to cars, so we end up with more cars, and the roads get yet more unfriendly for those not in metal cages.

Hotblack Desiato

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Of course, men take more risks (speeding, dangerous overtaking etc) but they're generally more in control of the car

Yes, right up to impact :rolleyes:

Victor

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Maybe she could, but why SHOULD she? Just as you have the right to choose to walk, or cycle, or use public transport, the rest of us have the equal right NOT to - ESPECIALLY when the public transport alternatives (for the majority of people in this city, not to mention COUNTRY) are so poor.

A lot of that is making excuses. My ex-boss used to live in Dalkey and work in Ballsbridge, but would only use the DART once or twice a year. The Marino woman above has the choice of 8 buses leaving Marino between 0630 and 0730. If she walked to Fairview or Malahide Road, she could have 127 | 129 | 130 | 20b | 27 | 27b | 27c | 27x | 29a | 31 | 31b | 32 | 32a | 32b | 32x | 42 | 42a | 43 (Sorry KC61 , you got there first)

Kaiser2000 wrote:

As I mentioned in another recent thread, the Irish motorist pays a fortune for the "privilege" of owning his/her own car (fuel costs, maintenance, VRT, insurance, tax etc). I'd say in most cases it's because they have no other VIABLE alternative,

No, quite honestly its mostly because they are snobs.

or because they need the car for their work (sales rep etc). Why should they be further punished for the lack of forward planning shown by successive governments, local authorities and CIE?

Or their own lack of thought, living on the other side of the city from work.

Despite what some people here seem to think, it's not wrong for people to own cars, nor to expect to be able to use them freely.

I'm not sure if I have a problem with owning cars. I do have a problem with motorists insisting hte use them all at the same time in the same place.

The reality is, as I said in that other thread too, is that public transport DOES NOT WORK in this country.

Yes there are problems, but mostly it does work.

but ultimately cause more hassle and stress for everyone (the proposed 30 km/h limit in the city centre area being a case in point)

I'd love to know how simplifying the existing measures will cause hassle for people? The maximum it will add to any journey is 1 minute.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Of course, men take more risks (speeding, dangerous overtaking etc) but they're generally more in control of the car, know its dimensions and more spatially aware than their female counterparts.

A generalisation, but yes, often true. Except when it comes to parking.

Many men fail to realise that their car occupies the same parking space as 8-9 bicycles.

cast_iron

I think Revenue are corect in saying a BIK system would be unworkable.
Added to the fact it would be an unpopular tax, it would be quite the administration nightmare.

_Kaiser_

Victor wrote:

No, quite honestly its mostly because they are snobs.

I'm not sure how you presume someone to be a snob if they choose to drive, rather than spending hours getting to work because there's either no bus/train at all, at the time they need it, or they have to make multiple connections because of CIE's insistence that the majority of journeys must involve a side-trip to town.

I will grant you that public transport is seen (in its current form quite rightly) as the "poor man's option", but you can't tell me people WANT to spend hours in gridlock, pay inflated parking charges, toll bridges, ever rising fuel costs etc... they do it because as bad as it is, it's better than the alternative!

Or their own lack of thought, living on the other side of the city from work.

Not everyone can afford to live next door to the office. Not everyone even works in an office (as I mentioned: sales reps, field engineers etc).

I'm not sure if I have a problem with owning cars. I do have a problem with motorists insisting hte use them all at the same time in the same place.

First off, people have just as much of a right to own a car as you have to use public transport. Equally they have as much of a right to use the roads in as hassle-free and efficient a manner as you do. We all pay our taxes after all.

I will agree with you that where a person has the alternative of a frequent, fast, and reliable public transport alternative, and works in the office all day, that they should be encouraged to consider this option (as opposed to forced to). Forcing people will only make them dig their heels in and ultimately that's not the way to convince people there IS a better way.

Yes there are problems, but mostly it does work.

Disagree. And this is speaking as a former daily public transport user up until 2 years ago. Every journey becomes a chore.. buses don't show up, are late, full, dirty, cold/wet, poorly maintained, anti-social elements to deal with etc.

Add the need for multiple connections, detours via "An Lar" etc, and tell me it works. You have to plan every journey that isn't a simple A-B trip.

What about outside the cities, where you might have only 1 or 2 buses a day in some places? Or only every 2/3 hours etc?

I'd love to know how simplifying the existing measures will cause hassle for people? The maximum it will add to any journey is 1 minute.

At peak times maybe.. what about off-peak/night time when there's almost no traffic but this ridiculous limit will be (presumably) still in effect?

Does this limit apply to buses/taxis in buslanes? If so, it kind of defeats the purpose of the shiny new lane on the quays doesn't it?

A generalisation, but yes, often true. Except when it comes to parking. Many men fail to realise that their car occupies the same parking space as 8-9 bicycles.

I'm not sure what your point is here in light of my other comments? Try carrying a server on your bike. Or a stack of promotional material for a customer, or the weekly shopping, or the kids etc etc..

Victor

Kaiser2000 wrote:

I'm not sure how you presume someone to be a snob if they choose to drive, rather than spending hours getting to work because there's either no bus/train at all,

What does the word "choose" mean? It means either a or b. The two parts of your sentence are mutually exclusive.

Many drivers drive so they can be alone in their own little space, but in doing so make their and other people's commutes a misery.

at the time they need it, or they have to make multiple connections because of CIE's insistence that the majority of journeys must involve a side-trip to town.

That may be so, but it also implies choices you made about your destinations.

I will grant you that public transport is seen (in its current form quite rightly) as the "poor man's option", but you can't tell me people WANT to spend hours in gridlock, pay inflated parking charges, toll bridges, ever rising fuel costs etc... they do it because as bad as it is, it's better than the alternative!

"Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a ..." People want a lifestyle, they get what comes with the lifestyle.

Not everyone can afford to live next door to the office. Not everyone even works in an office (as I mentioned: sales reps, field engineers etc).

Do we hear those sales reps and field engineers whinging about parking at the office? No.

First off, people have just as much of a right to own a car as you have to use public transport. Equally they have as much of a right to use the roads in as hassle-free and efficient a manner as you do. We all pay our taxes after all.

No, you are legally and fundamentally wrong. I can walk down the street by right. Motorists need a licence to bring their car with them.

What about outside the cities, where you might have only 1 or 2 buses a day in some places? Or only every 2/3 hours etc?

Choices.

At peak times maybe.. what about off-peak/night time when there's almost no traffic but this ridiculous limit will be (presumably) still in effect?

All the more reason, becuase traffic will be free flwoing, but there can be thousands of pedestrians about.

Does this limit apply to buses/taxis in buslanes? If so, it kind of defeats the purpose of the shiny new lane on the quays doesn't it?

Oh really?

Church Street to Butt Bridge, all of 1.425km
1.425km @ 50km/h = 103 seconds
1.425km @ 30km/h = 171 seconds
Time lost 68 seconds

Now, as I understand it, the bus lane tends to be fairly full, so you rarely actually get to do 50km/h, so in practice the loss is much less. The trade of is a huge reduction in the severity and a smaller reudction in the number of accidents.

KC61

Public transport can never solve everyone's travel plans.

It can attempt to deliver a quality radial transport to/from the city and between major centres, but when orbital journeys start it is impossible to meet everyone's demands. By their very nature people tend to start from a wide variety of locations and go to an equally wide variety of destinations.

It can and should link the various towns in the suburbs, but it cannot serve EVERY business park, every housing estate etc as then people complain that it is going all over the place!!! Similarly people complain that the 75 takes unnecessary deviations via Ballinteer and Firhouse rather than taking a more direct route. From my experience that's where many of its passengers join/leave the bus! It is a very tough trade-off. Perhaps there is a need for rush-hour orbital Expressos but as I say by pleasing some people, you annoy others.

What we are seeing is more direct high frequency services along the QBC that do not deviate from it such as the 4, 151, 145, shortly 128 and 140, and eventually even the 141!! This will improve the situation but their introduction is painfully slow.

Urban public transport has to focus on where the numbers are, and yes some areas do only have several buses a day - but is there demand for more? There is obviously a place for the motor car and some trips just do not lend themselves to public transport.

I have to say that unless you require a car for work (perfectly reasonable), why would you drive all the way into the city? Each of the QBCs now have high frequency bus services, and there is more in the pipeline. You say people have a right to drive into the city, I agree that is true, but the more people that do that the worse our public transport will become as congestion gets even heavier. And no one is a winner then.

I'm afraid that we are in a no-win situation. And peoples' perceptions will have to change as will the attitude of our public transport providers and government. We cannot continue in a situation where unnecessary journeys are made by car when there is a perfectly adequate bus/train alternative. If we all take that approach then no-one is going to go anywhere. While people have a right to use the car, there is a finite amount of space in which to use it and that is approaching its upper limit in the central city area and its approaches.

As I say there is a glimmer of hope as the phased introduction of 100 extra buses onto our streets takes place but if people choose not to use them then where do we go?

loyatemu

Victor is right here - while there are many people for whom public transport is not a viable alternative, there are also plenty who would never use it even if the Luas went right past their door.

Eventually some sort of carrot and stick approach is going to have to be taken, and this probably means congestion charging.

Paris used to have a system where odd and even-numbered car registrations were only allowed into the city on alternate days - does anyone know how well this worked? Seems like a interesting way to encourage car-pooling. Perhaps this could be combined with a congestion charge (ie - odd numbered cars can enter the city centre for free one week, with even numbered cars paying a charge, and vice-versa the following week).

Radical ideas will have to be given consideration - despite public transport being undoubtedly better now than it was 10 years ago, the traffic continues to worsen dramatically.

Victor

loyatemu wrote:

Paris used to have a system where odd and even-numbered car registrations were only allowed into the city on alternate days - does anyone know how well this worked? Seems like a interesting way to encourage car-pooling. Perhaps this could be combined with a congestion charge (ie - odd numbered cars can enter the city centre for free one week, with even numbered cars paying a charge, and vice-versa the following week).

People will simply buy two cars.

gazzer

Just to balance the argument some people have made here about civil servents having car parking spaces. I work in the Revenue Commissioners and have done for almost 4 years. I applied for a car parking space 2 years ago but was told there is a 5 year waiting list (at least). Out of about 20 civil servents I know from different departments only 5 of them have a car parking space. On top of that most of my friends who work in the private sector have car parking spaces.

To be honest if I had a car parking space I would definately use it as the public transport (38 bus service) out my way can be attrocious.

Luckycharm

murphaph wrote:

Indeed. It never fails to amaze me why more people don't get mopeds or bikes. I leave work in Rathfarnham at 1700 and I'm home in Clonsilla at 1735 without fail, using the M50 from J13 to J6. I wonder how long the same journey takes by car? Anybody do something similar on 4 wheels?

Do these people not value their time?

What kind of Scooter do you have it must be bigger then 50cc to use the M50? I travel in and out by Scooter also worked it out that I save 7hrs a week commutting, Which equates to about 20 days a year excluding holidays and sleeping time (i know a bit anal) Over 40 years working would work out over 2 years extra time to do what I want instead of sitting in my car