Biggest pot I've ever played

grey_abbey

6-max $2-$4 Omaha

Hero has 400 Villian has around 950 and has been table captain for the couple of orbits I've been here. He's raised, c-bet and taken it down a lot. Every1 else at the table has around 300 or 400.

Have i butchered this hand?

Dealt Ad Kc Js 5d in BB

Villian raises UTG to $14
Button calls $14
I call $10
Pot $44
I have $386 left

Flop Ac 5c 3s

I check
Villian bets $20
Button calls $20
I raise to $70
Villian calls $50
Button folds
Pot $204
I have $316 left

Turn 9d

I bet $170
Villian calls $170
Pot $544
I have $146 left

River Qd

I check
He bets $146
I call $146
Pot is....massive (for me)

Thoughts? How often am I beaten into the ground here?

Played this on internet cafe so dont have hand history to convert. Hope its clear.
BTW I'm playing above BR and was just takin a shot. Planned on only playin the nuts but...

LuckyLloyd

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30something

I'm not much of an Omaha player but I would have thought that his flat call to your bet on the turn (which was more then you left yourself with) meant he probably does not have you beat here, if he did his min raise would have put you all in and forced you to call. The fact that he does not raise seems to me to suggest he's looking for a cheap card on the river.

The river card seems like a brick and you have no choice but to call his bet. Having made the turn bet I would have pushed any innocuous river to give me some FE on the basis if you check he'll bet it anyway.

*WARNING* - This may be very flawed thinking on my part.

grey_abbey

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Fold pre - flop.

Nit :rolleyes:

NickyOD

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Fold pre - flop.

I'd probably reraise.

RoundTower

well I certainly don't fold the river, but you did put in a lot of money to get here.

LuckyLloyd

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Van Dice

30something wrote:

The river card seems like a brick and you have no choice but to call his bet. Having made the turn bet I would have pushed any innocuous river to give me some FE on the basis if you check he'll bet it anyway.

Why would you want him to fold out any hands you are beating, and not let him bluff?

I don't know anything about the hand itself though, I don't play 4-card

30something

Van Dice wrote:

Why would you want him to fold out any hands you are beating, and not let him bluff?

I don't know anything about the hand itself though, I don't play 4-card

Fair point but we may get him to fold a better 2 pair

BobSloane

Lol I know so little of omaha. You have the king of clubs tho which suggests he wasn't chasing a flush. He may well have flopped the straight but had no re-draw - or bottom set. I wouldn't love your hand if it was holdem, let alone omaha.
If you were in going to war mode why didn't you check-raise pot it on the flop? Genuine question - I dont know if thats a good or bad idea

Hopefully you will get a reply soon from someone who is an authority on omaha

grey_abbey

LuckyLloyd wrote:

You're OOP with a meh starting hand. You are underrolled and are taking a shot in an internet cafe.

OOP can be good against an ever c-betting villian.

I'm not a nit when I play at home so why would I be a nit when I play in an internet cafe?

Forget the outside circumstances, I'm looking for analysis on the hand based on table circumstances.

careca

BobSloane wrote:

You have the king of clubs ho which suggests he wasn't chasing a flush. He may well have flopped the straight but had no re-draw - or bottom set.

Not sure you can presume he isn't chasing the flush, too many donks out there that would chase any flush in omaha.

I agree he could have the straight on the flop and was afraid of the flush draw/board pairing until the river.

I would also agree with Lloyd and Roundtower - I would fold preflop, but if I got to the river I would now call.

eoghan104

NickyOD wrote:

I'd probably reraise.

That would be awful.

OP yeh you have to call here but shouldnt really be in that position.

LuckyLloyd

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grey_abbey

30something wrote:

Fair point but we may get him to fold a better 2 pair

I didn't think a better two pair was folding with those pot odds whereas they may check behind my check.

grey_abbey

BobSloane wrote:

Lol I know so little of omaha. You have the king of clubs tho which suggests he wasn't chasing a flush. He may well have flopped the straight but had no re-draw - or bottom set. I wouldn't love your hand if it was holdem, let alone omaha.
If you were in going to war mode why didn't you check-raise pot it on the flop? Genuine question - I dont know if thats a good or bad idea

Hopefully you will get a reply soon from someone who is an authority on omaha

This is a lot of what I was thinking during/after the hand.
I've been trying to merge my drawing hands with my made ones of late and so I've gotten into the habit of not betting pot which is probably what I should've done here.
His $20 bet on the flop just looked drawy-weak to me.
Thing is I hate going to war with 2 pair but thought I couldn't avoid it here.

LuckyLloyd

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grey_abbey

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Alright, so you are going to check - raise his c - bet on every flop? What has he done the times he hasn't got his c - bet through? Infact, how many hands have you been at the table with villian? If you are in this hand because you think villain is "at it" a lot and you want to stand up to him, why bet the turn? In absolute terms, your hand has decent value - but inflating the pot at this point reduces the amount of times he bluffs; makes it unlikely that he can pay you off with worse. Check and catch a bluff from him on the turn or river. As played, call because clubs missed and there is too much money in the pot. Expect to be reloading a fair bit.

1. Not every flop no, just the one's i hit.
2. I've been at the table for about 20 hands. He's raised pf and c-bet about half of these without resistance.
3. Not betting the turn would be bad imo. His flop bet-call looks like a draw. why give him a free card?

NickyOD

eoghan104 wrote:

That would be awful.

OP yeh you have to call here but shouldnt really be in that position.

I think cold calling here with these hands OOP is a huge leak in Omaha. It's not 5678. You have 3 broadway cards and a suited ace which is probably a favourite over a player who is raising and c-betting all the time, and who says you have to hit the flop anyway.

LuckyLloyd

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careca

NickyOD wrote:

I think cold calling here with these hands OOP is a huge leak in Omaha. It's not 5678. You have 3 broadway cards and a suited ace which is probably a favourite over a player who is raising and c-betting all the time, and who says you have to hit the flop anyway.

I think you go broke a lot with that type of thinking in omaha. your hand is not that strong preflop. If you reraise and he comes back over the top, you have to let it go.

Also, because he is c-betting all the time and has position, I think you do need to hit the flop.

There are too many donks out there to think you can get them to lay down hands in omaha. Any draw and two pair are good for some people.

NickyOD

careca wrote:

If you reraise and he comes back over the top, you have to let it go.

He will only do that with AAxx and you have one of them.

smoothcall

Firstly not to call pre flop would be outrageous , youve got a suited ace and three broadway cards and your gettin over 3 -1. If your folding this go back to holdem.

The post flop play isnt great imo, Omaha %s are so slim when you decide your raising youve to got pot it. Your reraise to 70 on the flop is way to weak. If you think your ahead here youve got Pot it. hes goin to call 50 with a huge amount of hands, eg A and fld , A and straight draw,

Then on the turn you make the same mistake if your betting it you have to pot it, it was a good turn card for you so pot it and he has to put you on nuts or set . but you price him in and leave yourself no chance to get away on river

The check call on the river is grand , give him a chance to bluff missed draw, cos hes nver foldin better two pair, which is what im preety sure he has.

grey_abbey

"Because by betting you are putting in over half your remaining stack - meaning that you can't really fold many rivers whether a draw gets there or not. As such, when you bet you are creating a situation where he is getting a very good price to call on most draws (if he thinks his outs are clean) because he probably has implied odds for your entire stack. And his draw may be big enough that he is never folding it and you aren't much of a favourite to win the hand by showdown anyway."

That's a good point. In the heat of the moment I was just thinking I'm ahead, I need to push out the draw. I just hate the thought of checking the turn and seeing a draw get there.

BTW, if he checks behind on the turn, would you push a club on the river with the naked Kc?

grey_abbey

smoothcall wrote:

Firstly not to call pre flop would be outrageous , youve got a suited ace and three broadway cards and your gettin over 3 -1. If your folding this go back to holdem.

The post flop play isnt great imo, Omaha %s are so slim when you decide your raising youve to got pot it. Your reraise to 70 on the flop is way to weak. If you think your ahead here youve got Pot it. hes goin to call 50 with a huge amount of hands, eg A and fld , A and straight draw,

Then on the turn you make the same mistake if your betting it you have to pot it, it was a good turn card for you so pot it and he has to put you on nuts or set . but you price him in and leave yourself no chance to get away on river

The check call on the river is grand , give him a chance to bluff missed draw, cos hes nver foldin better two pair, which is what im preety sure he has.

I thought this after the hand alright. In general, do you think there's any merit to not betting pot (instead 3/4's pot) in order to blend your draws with your made hands or is Rolf Slotbom sendin me wrong?
I agree this was def not the place to do it in hindsight.

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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eoghan104

NickyOD wrote:

He will only do that with AAxx and you have one of them.

That thinking is not great Nicky to be honest. You have to think about what your gona do if he comes over the top. 90% he will just call yes but that puts you in a bad spot too. If you miss the flop (which you do alot with this holding) you are OOP and forced to cb or give up. Any flop you do hit you still cant be sure where you are.

Its a fold I think but in saying that its not awful to call. A reraise however is the worst option.

smoothcall

"""I've seen RoundTower say before on this forum that betting full pot at any time in omaha is probably bad. He seems to be a pretty mean omaha player..."""

Id be surprised to hear that from any winning omaha player tbh.

""""I thought this after the hand alright. In general, do you think there's any merit to not betting pot (instead 3/4's pot) in order to blend your draws with your made hands or is Rolf Slotbom sendin me wrong?
I agree this was def not the place to do it in hindsight."""

There is times you want to bet 3/4 pot but this is definitly not it. Just think of it from his point of view, hes gettin a good price. A lot of players bet 3/4 of the pot when there weak. its one of the biggest tells in omaha.

Just think would you have bet these ammounts if you had the nuts, i doubt it

ps; dont know how to do that quote thing

ianmc38

was this on ipoker against FatJammers?

grey_abbey

ianmc38 wrote:

was this on ipoker against FatJammers?

No, on 'Stars

RoundTower

smoothcall wrote:

"""I've seen RoundTower say before on this forum that betting full pot at any time in omaha is probably bad. He seems to be a pretty mean omaha player..."""

Id be surprised to hear that from any winning omaha player tbh.

so would I!

Conspicuous

I've seen RoundTower say before on this forum that betting full pot at any time in omaha is probably bad

What nonsense. Id love to hear his rationale behind that theory. Doesnt make much sense to me. For instance you flop a set on a drawy board, get one caller and a rag comes on the turn. You want to give him value to fill or to you want to make him pay to hit?. Pretty straightforward if you ask me

LuckyLloyd

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cardshark202

Eh I don't get the flop raise. A35, means any straight is a winner, and you have the Kc so its less likely he's flushing. Just call the flop.

Goodluck2me

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I've seen RoundTower say before on this forum that betting full pot at any time in omaha is probably bad. He seems to be a pretty mean omaha player...

metagame.

mrflash

You are beat most times. Its a hand i would fold after the flop nearly always. Why raise with a poor hand like that.

grey_abbey

mrflash wrote:

You are beat most times.

Agreed, thanks for all the replies.

btw I got lucky and won this one when he showed A346 for a worse 2 pair tho he had up and down str8 draw and baby flush draw both of which would've been good. Shant be playin 2-4 for a while. Heart wouldn't hack it.

Prob the only things I did right in the hand was call pre-flop and check the river.