Impossible Planning Condition

Sparky78

I have recently received planning permission from Kildare Co Co for a Dormer Bungalow with the following condition attached:
"This grant of permission is conditional on the provision of sight visibility lines in excess of 90 meters in either direction. Prior to the commencement of any works on site, detailed proposals, including a revised site layout plan showing the provision of the required visibility sightlines in either direction shall be submitted for the written approval of the Planning Authority. The relocation of the access along the front boundary of the site is appropriate, if necessary.
The sightlines are to conform with the National Roads Authority, Design Manual for Roads and Bridges, road Geometry handbook, being measured to the near side of the public road. Evidence of sufficiency of interest to carry out works is to be included. Where hedging is removed it shall be replaced for its full length behind the visibility sightlines. Note: Visibility sightlines dependent on trimming of hedgerows are not acceptable."

This is not possible as it would require me to remove the hedges from my 2 neighbours who will not agree.
My architect has spoken to the roads engineer who said he never had a problem with the site lines and said the planner added this condition at the last minute as it wasn't even mentioned in the further info.He then spoke to the planner who said basically comply or else forget about it.
My architect told me to talk to the local TD to see what he can do as there is not much more he can do.Even reapplying probably wont work if we get the same planner.

Anyone any ideas or advise.

Thanks

Mellor

I think you may be a little misunderstood. On two counts.
Firstly, this isn't a condition attached by the planner. This is a NRA regulation that applies to ALL road junctions, be they junctions between two or more roads or (as in your case) between a site entrance and a road.

What is the speed limit on the road outside. If it is low you may be able to prove compliance with a distance shorter than 90m each way.

Secondly, the hedges don't have to be removed 90m in each direction, from the entrance it has to be possible to see 90m in each direction. With careful/clever entrance design, this issue can be easily resolved. If you want I can have a look at your site plan and pass comment.

muffler

Its one of the many mysterious decisions made by the planners. What you could do is to approach the roads engineer and ask if he could confirm in writing to the planner that the sight lines can be achieved without traversing any third party property. Then you need your politician to work his charm on the planner and get him/her to agree to give you a letter confirming that the proposed location of your entrance will be in compliance with condition no XX of the grant of permission and does not necessitate any further action on your part.

I've seen it done so its worth a go.

Gumbo

maybe post up a pdf of the proposed site plan, it mmay help people answering your question and if indeed it is possible to carry out.

as said above, we do a bit of this in the office and the speed limit is low it may be possible to lower the sight distance.

smokingman

We had this too with our recent successful application in Kildare.
We do however, have quite a big straight road at our (future) gate so no real issues there with the 90m. We do have a neighbour beside us though just like the OP but we were told by the engineer said that their hedge was fine since it wasn't too tall.

Mellor

I have a feeling that the OP thought he had to remove 90m of hedge in each direction.
I might have a pic that explains what he has to do a little better.
You have to have a clear sight triangle, from the centre of the entrance, 4.5m back from the road (or 2.5m if low traffic can be proved) to the edge of the road 90m in each direction.

I imagine that there is some sort of ditch or verge between the hedge and road.

Mellor

Got an image for you,

godtabh

Mellor wrote:

Got an image for you,

Make sure you look at the NRA version and not the DMRB as there are a few differences.

Depending on type of road you can get away with different set backs in difficult situations.

Get your engineer to have a look at it. He'd have an answer for you in 5 minutes if you can comply or not. Its a very simple exercise

Mellor

Well i purposely didn't include set backs, heights are given in image, and the OP was given a distance, unless the road and a speed limit of 30 or 40, it won't be less than the 90m given.
The op should be able to use a set back of 2.5m

The_Bullman

kearnsr wrote:

Make sure you look at the NRA version and not the DMRB as there are a few differences.

Depending on type of road you can get away with different set backs in difficult situations.

Get your engineer to have a look at it. He'd have an answer for you in 5 minutes if you can comply or not. Its a very simple exercise

Where would I find the NRA version. I tried searching but to no avail.

Sparky78

Thanks lads.

Heres 2 Pdfs of the site.
The area marked in red has been given over to the council to straighten the road by the application 07-275.This may help my cause.They have been given the go ahead based on the assumption the road will be straightened in the future.
The speed limit has been reduced to 60kph in the last 2 weeks which was after the planning decision so this might help.My acrchitect still thinks I'll have to remove large portions of hedge on both sides.

Thanks

godtabh

Sparky78 wrote:

Thanks lads.

Heres 2 Pdfs of the site.
The area marked in red has been given over to the council to straighten the road by the application 07-275.This may help my cause.They have been given the go ahead based on the assumption the road will be straightened in the future.
The speed limit has been reduced to 60kph in the last 2 weeks which was after the planning decision so this might help.My acrchitect still thinks I'll have to remove large portions of hedge on both sides.

Thanks

That doesnt look bad to me but i cant really judge from the drawings.


Assuming you have a cad drawings it wouldnt take long for an engineer to check. I wouldnt trust the architect as they some times dont get it right.

Mellor

Well it looks kinda bad to me.
The south side is ok as the road is pretty straight to that side.
The north side is an issue. The road curves to the east. This creates the issue that the point on the road 90m north is further east than the entrance to the site. The 3m high hedges obscruct the view.

I see that land was given to straighten the road, Is this new direction of road reflected in the more detailed drawing (PDF). Moving the entrance to the south will help.
What is the speed limit of the road?
Move the entrance as far left as you can. From this new position measure 90m along the road. And see how visable this is from the roadside at the entrance.

Sparky78

The speed limit is now 60kph.
If I moved the entrance to the south I would lose the distance required on that side as there is a corner about 70m form the existing entrance.

godtabh

The_Bullman wrote:

Where would I find the NRA version. I tried searching but to no avail.

I have access to them through work. I dont know where you'd get them otherwise. Try a library maybe?

Mellor

Well, I suppose that your lucky that the CoCo requested 90m, as a 60km speed limit actually requires a 120m distance (off top of my head anyway).

muffler

Mellor wrote:

Well, I suppose that your lucky that the CoCo requested 90m, as a 60km speed limit actually requires a 120m distance (off top of my head anyway).

80km/h in Donegal will require a 70m vision line. If its in a built up area (within town boundaries) where the speed limit is 50km then it is discretionary.

Sparky78

Went to the councils office today to see the planners files which are kept separate until the final grant.It seems that the planner didn't receive the area engineers report till he already decided to grant the permission(6 months and 2 further informations later) and this condition was only added at this stage.
I spoke to my architect and he said that it should have been addressed at the further information stage and not as a condition on the planning.
In his opinion my local TD should be able to get it removed as its not good planning practice and possible not legal.
Is he just clutching at straws or has anyone heard of this.

Thanks again for all the info.

Mellor

I was unaware that various PAs could change it. I thought it was a national regulation The figures I gave are from a Depart. of Environ booklet on site works.

bakerbhoy

My site is on a minor road with a speed limit of 80k and my sight lines are 70meters.There are dwellings beside and across from the entrance with the road to the east highest falling as it passes the entrance.This was included in the drawings submitted when filing the application.It seems you are being treated unfairly as it should have been at least requested at the fi stage.

godtabh

bakerbhoy wrote:

My site is on a minor road with a speed limit of 80k and my sight lines are 70meters.There are dwellings beside and across from the entrance with the road to the east highest falling as it passes the entrance.This was included in the drawings submitted when filing the application.It seems you are being treated unfairly as it should have been at least requested at the fi stage.

Thoes site lines are wrong.

70m site lines refer to 50kph roads with 2.4m to be use in "exceptionally difficult circumstances" as per section 7.8 and table 7/1 of TD 42/95

muffler

kearnsr wrote:

Thoes site lines are wrong.

70m site lines refer to 50kph roads with 2.4m to be use in "exceptionally difficult circumstances" as per section 7.8 and table 7/1 of TD 42/95

Not wrong at all. Its down to the requirements as set out in each Local Autorities Development Plan. For National Primary and Secondary roads the requirements will be as set out by the NRA but for local county roads its set by the PA.

As I said earlier we are getting away with 70m vision lines where the max speed limit is 80km

godtabh

muffler wrote:

Not wrong at all. Its down to the requirements as set out in each Local Autorities Development Plan. For National Primary and Secondary roads the requirements will be as set out by the NRA but for local county roads its set by the PA.

As I said earlier we are getting away with 70m vision lines where the max speed limit is 80km

The ones in the greater dublin area think differently and I had always assumed that it was a county wide thing

Sparky78

According to the architect it brings it down to 70m in Kildare.still snookered on the north side all the same.

Any opinions on the fact the site lines weren't brought up as a further information request and therefore could be removed by a managers order as the applicant had no opportunity to reply?

godtabh

Sparky78 wrote:

According to the architect it brings it down to 70m in Kildare.still snookered on the north side all the same.

Any opinions on the fact the site lines weren't brought up as a further information request and therefore could be removed by a managers order as the applicant had no opportunity to reply?

The manager has made his order to grant so I dont think he can change it unless you make a first party appeal to the board.

Its a relatively standard condition (I have one similar in a job I'm doing now but will probably appeal it as its not physically possible)

godtabh

Sorry to bring this up but this may help.

For a design speed of 50kph the site distance can be 43m with a 2.4m set back as per page 91, 92 and 93 of the Manual for Streets (if it applies here)