SE €50 FO last night.

*Counterfeit*

First level after break, blinds 150 - 300. I have circa 5K in chips, same as I started out with. On the button with 63o, has been folded around to me and I make it 900 (too small?) to go. Small blind folds, villain on big blind ponders for a moment then calls (also 5k in chips). Villian is loose/weak player, only raised once preflop all night with KK, and has been calling down middle sized bets all night with middle pair etc. Range is standard enough though, yet to see him play with utter muck in his hand. Flop 6 6 2 rainbow. Villian checks, I lead for 900 again, villain reraises all in. I?

El Stuntman

instacall

if he has the other 6 or 22 then bad beat sticky

imalegend

call call call call call call call call call call call......u will see any pair from 99-33 here to often to fold.

id even do the patented phil hellmuth call here just to make sure!

bops

you're not seriously lookin' for advice here??

*Counterfeit*

Seems like an obvious call ok but i should point out that this is the first time he has reraised anyone, despite playing multiple hands. CRAI was not a weapon I felt he had in his armour. He seemed v. strong, and I wondered if it was an overpair why had he not reraised preflop?

*Counterfeit*

bops wrote:

you're not seriously lookin' for advice here??

First time this guy has reraised anyone all night (no exaggeration) despite playing many hands, so Yes!

Edit: Ok system did take my first reply, sorry for repeat!

zuutroy

What Stuntman said....

Flushdraw

*Counterfeit* wrote:

First time this guy has reraised anyone all night (no exaggeration) despite playing many hands, so Yes!

Edit: Ok system did take my first reply, sorry for repeat!

I'll echo Bops statement......even so, you're still not looking for advice are you???

The villian would do this with some many hands you're ahead of...He obviously had A6 or 22 so bad beat sticky. This is a call 100 times out of 100

ianmc38

the easiest call ive ever seen.

Van Dice

Flushdraw wrote:

This is a call 100 times out of 100

Too tight imo

*Counterfeit*

ianmc38 wrote:

the easiest call ive ever seen.

Ok, naturally I instacalled and indeed he had 22, and no miracle cards on the turn or river. Afterwards I was a bit disappointed because I felt I should have known he was ahead. He hadn't reraised all night, and the hand I felt he might have (a big overpair, 1010 or JJ), I'm pretty sure he would have reraised me with preflop as he had done earlier with KK. Maybe too analytical, but I think I might have got away from this.

zuutroy

Understandable that you're annoyed, but it's result based. Call is +++EV here.

imalegend

i dont care if he has only re-raised with big pairs and stuff here...perfect player to play this type of situational hand against so 99 per cent of the time he is pushing in here with a hand that you are killing.

Build a bridge and get over it...I can safely say that the guy who took your chips didnt win the tourney, seeing the way he played this hand.

ianmc38

Well you have to judge whether you're ahead against a range of hands. If his range is 6x or 22, then obviously it's a fold. When you add in 33-55/77+/A2s and even a bizarrely played AJ+, then the call is a must as your equity is really good in that spot.

bops

CRAI with a flopped house?? lovely!! he was just lucky that you had a hand to call him with

Van Dice

Wouldn't get into flop analysis here Counterfeit, it's never a fold. Ever.

*Counterfeit* wrote:

On the button with 63o, has been folded around to me and I make it 900 (too small?) to go.

I don't like your bet size here though, imo it's about 900 too much

zuutroy

Van Dice wrote:

I don't like your bet size here though, imo it's about 900 too much

Indeed, surprised that hasn't been mentioned. crap hands tend to get you in crap spots! (unless you're Gus Hansen)

Jaden

If you have to ask about calling this, then stop playing poker and take up Ludo.

ozpoker

Counterfeit -

First off, ignore all the comments about how this is the easiest call on the planet and that you shouldn't ever question a play due to results. It's always a worthwhile exercise to question your plays and see if you are missing anything you should be considering.

It is possible to get away from a hand like this, but you need overwhelming evidence you are beat. It's not enough to say that you think this player needs an absolute monster to make this play; sometimes even very bad players just get tired and make plays because "they know should bluff sometimes". Sometimes they overvalue an overpair and you haven't collected enough data points to know this is the case. So it's fair to say that, against most players, in most situations, given that the strength of your hand is so well hidden, that a call is the right play.

But, if you had additional information like some physical tells (his demeanor as he went all in, the way he put his chips in, table talk, etc), you might have enough evidence to get away from your hand. This will be an extreme exception, but if all the evidence points to his range being 22, 6x, then folding will be the right play.

-Oz-

strewelpeter

*Counterfeit* wrote:

First time this guy has reraised anyone all night (no exaggeration) despite playing many hands, so Yes!

All night being 3 levels at feck all hands per hour... so I wouldn't be too keen on making a huge laydown based on something that hes done for the first time tonight.
If you are going to get involved with this kinda goo then you have to be willing to die with it when the flop absolutely smacks you in the face.
He has probably come to the (fairly logical) conclusion that you would be unlikely to raise with anything that resembles that flop other than a pair of sixes and isn't going to be bullied with a hand that some kind of showdown value versus that flop. He might have a 6 in which case you should have a lot of outs for a split, if you miss those or he has 22 then nh wp ul welcome to the cash game .

*Counterfeit*

Van Dice wrote:

I don't like your bet size here though, imo it's about 900 too much

Ok, accept that there's a lot of merit here, particularily when thinking about it it was nearly 20% of my stack. However I wasn't planning on seeing a flop in this particular spot, which was what my question as regards the bet sizing related to. But don't agree that it's never a good play, I often find that raising with these kind of rags in position can lead to double and treble ups, especially on a table where the play is weak pre-flop and there's plenty of fold equity in the stacks involved. Although on the flip side, it gets you into trouble occasionally, as exactly was the case here. Live by the sword I suppose!

zuutroy

*Counterfeit* wrote:

But don't agree that it's never a good play, I often find that raising with these kind of rags in position can lead to double and treble ups, especially on a table where the play is weak pre-flop

I don't agree with stealing with any two cards. I follow the principle of betting when I'm ahead in this situation. You only need a top 33% (maybe out to 40 or 50 given reads) hand to open here, but 63o (or whatever it was) isn't in that category. As you said, sometimes it gets you into trouble, which in reality translates to opening with 63o from the button is -EV.

Goodluck2me

fold.

Scouser in Dub

I wouldn't open that wide a range myself from the button but I don't see that as being the issue here at all.

We are in the exact same position here as if we had J10 on a JJ2 flop in fact we are better off with 6:3 as there is more we are beating when CRAI

*Counterfeit*

Scouser in Dub wrote:

I
We are in the exact same position here as if we had J10 on a JJ2 flop in fact we are better off with 6:3 as there is more we are beating when CRAI

Which is exactly the reason I might consider raising with such rags in optimal conditions, in the hope that callers are playing with a very different type of holding. I'm looking for the caller(s) to hit while I've flopped a monster, such as 6 6 A with my 63o against AJo, or often I'll flop mid or bottom pair, it will be checked around to me by someone holding tp, expecting me to barrel it, but I'll see check hoping to improve on the turn, at which point they'll make their move having made the error of giving me a free card. It's not a play that I use frequently, but I will try it occassionally, often stunningly succesfully as well. Anyone else like this line, or have I some fundamental flaw in my thinking here?

zuutroy

Its a case of how many open raises you make vs how often your stack your opponent or take the blinds, and I dont think its close in terms of being profitable in the long stretch. You hit your flop 30% of the time, at best with a trashy pair. You flop trips around 1% of the time, and as you saw, you still werent safe. At least the likes of J10 has some high card value. Not a line for me.

bops

*Counterfeit* wrote:

Anyone else like this line, or have I some fundamental flaw in my thinking here?

somebody who thinks like me! WOW!!

bops

zuutroy wrote:

Its a case of how many open raises you make vs how often your stack your opponent or take the blinds, and I dont think its close in terms of being profitable in the long stretch. You hit your flop 30% of the time, at best with a trashy pair. You flop trips around 1% of the time, and as you saw, you still werent safe. Not a line for me.

it's not all about hitting the perfect flop - when you are called from the blinds you have position and if your ability to read the game is up to scratch, you don't need to hit big to win

*Counterfeit*

zuutroy wrote:

Its a case of how many open raises you make vs how often your stack your opponent or take the blinds, and I dont think its close in terms of being profitable in the long stretch. You hit your flop 30% of the time, at best with a trashy pair. You flop trips around 1% of the time, and as you saw, you still werent safe. At least the likes of J10 has some high card value. Not a line for me.

Not very often, as I said, conditions need to be optimal and the limitation with pulling it off is that once your move has been shown down, it's pretty much gone from your arsenal for the night, since the better players will move to counteract it pre-flop. Also, besides hitting the flop/stealing the blinds, depending on pot size I'll often fire a winning continuation bet, further adding to it's long term profability.

Flushdraw

I dont see anything wrong with opening from the button with 63o and if the flop came 552, i'm still betting when its checked to me. Its just a slightly easier fold with the gutshot draw....

BobSloane

*Counterfeit* wrote:

but I think I might have got away from this.

Getting over 2-1 on the call and if you fold you will have ~10bbs left?
I'd probably call this with K high - let alone a 6.

If you get coolered this shallow it just happens.
Plus its not like you're 1% or something against 22. You'd be somewhere between 3 and 4 -1.

Also a pf raise and continuatinuation bet here is going to be over 1/3 of your stack. The blinds would have to be very weak players and/or I would want a rock reputation to see this as a profitable move with 63o

*Counterfeit*

BobSloane wrote:

Also a pf raise and continuatinuation bet here is going to be over 1/3 of your stack. The blinds would have to be very weak players and/or I would want a rock reputation to see this as a profitable move with 63o

Accepted. Would normally be making this play with double or treble the stack size I was at last night. Wasn't planning on seeing the flop last night in the particular hand, but with the caller had to go to plan b. The whole thing was a disaster all around, and I was punished by the poker Gods for a lapse in concentration, as is there wont!

hatedajacks

I was in seat 4 last night beside the donk. Yea u got unlucky but the guy was a complete calling station and called down me once and Rory twice on 3rd,4th and 5th street with bottom pair so unless u did hit trips like u did he wasnt a big blind to be messing with imo.

Lazare

Just fold pre flop. Opening from the button is so blindingly obvious, and doing it with rags into a station is v bad. Lately, unless there's been a couple of limpers, I'm tightening up my button opening range, 3 out of 4 orbits. Stack dependant obviously.

Conspicuous

Given the information its a pretty straightforward fold to me. What can u beat? Taking your history with him into account you can rule out the possibility of a big pair. You also say he is a weak/ loose player so with a hand like 44/55 etc he is most likely to flat call you. The only other time he has made such an aggressive move was with kk pf. At this stage you should have made the decision that he has either 22 or 6 with a higher kicker- either way you are a huge dog. At least you thought about it and can put it down to experience, most players will just keep puttig in their chips in situations like this because they cant get away from trips. When you forget about the fact that you have a big hand and actually apply some logic to the situation and evaluate what chance you have of winning here, it is quite easy to release your hand.

ianmc38

id consider not opening 36o OTB against tight players in the blinds awful