Seniority in schools

newgal

Just a question. If there is a person in a sec school who has 8 years exp, 3 in the US, 2 in OZ, and 3 in Ire......is the 5 outside the EU recognised for seniority purposes?

spurious

Go to the DES site and search for 0029/2007
It will give you the circular letter on incremental credit.

killbillvol2

Incremental credit and seniority are two very different things. Only service in the school is counted towards seniority (and not all service, it's complicated).

If you need more detail come back to me and I'll root out the circular.

spurious

Unless you're in a VEC where service in the scheme counts, not just in the school. 'Seniority' doesn't count for much any more within VECs.
In the bad old days, people just sat around and eventually got promoted on 'seniority' but thankfully that is gone now. Nowadays service is a maximum of 30 points in interviews for promotional posts.

Perhaps the old system still applies in voluntary secondary schools, I'm not sure.

newgal

Thank you very much , you are very helpful!

I dont really understand the new senioritything you were talking about. Let me explain.....

I am in a secondary school, where a colleague and I came to the School at the exact same time, so we both have the same amount of years taught here.
However, we both have the same amount of years taught before we came here. However, I taught in the US, and Australia, and a couple of other places outside the EU. My friend has done all her years here in the Republic.

We do operate a system of seniority where years taught determines where you are on the list. I would like to know if the years I taught outside the EU count, as I was told they wont for seniority purposes. I scoped out the circular but it doesnt make any sense to me sorry!

PS: Whats the points thing about?

Reagrds and thanks a mil!

killbillvol2

It's difficult to decide who's senior when two (or more) people start on the same day. Why do you need to know who's senior? As spurious said it's length of service that counts (for a third of the marks) when deciding on promoted posts.

Seniority is important in primary schools when the school is losing teachers. The least senior permanent teacher is the first to go. Is that still the case in secondary schools?

AFAIK neither your service abroad nor the other teacher's service here (before you came to that school) will count towards seniority.

We recently had to deal with the issue in my school where 5 teachers started on the same day. That was fun!

ArthurDent

Can only speak to the primary sector but for seniority (even if you were all appointed on the same day) there is a list of where you finished on the interview score and that is taken as the list for "seniority". For appointments in school (posts of responsibility and assistant principals) seniority can only be ONE of the criteria. An appointment cannot be made on seniority alone - if that happens contact the INTO

killbillvol2

ArthurDent wrote:

Can only speak to the primary sector but for seniority (even if you were all appointed on the same day) there is a list of where you finished on the interview score and that is taken as the list for "seniority". For appointments in school (posts of responsibility and assistant principals) seniority can only be ONE of the criteria. An appointment cannot be made on seniority alone - if that happens contact the INTO

Have to correct you Arthur. Length of service is one of the criteria, not seniority. These are often the same in practice but can be very different if a teacher has temporary service. The temporary service is counted for "length of service" but only permanent service counts for seniority.

See what you started newgal???

TheDriver

I thought the whole seniority thing was gone in schools (maybe slightly there in secondary but not in VEC) and only service comes up nowadays for promotional posts.

killbillvol2

TheDriver wrote:

I thought the whole seniority thing was gone in schools (maybe slightly there in secondary but not in VEC) and only service comes up nowadays for promotional posts.

That's what I said. People confuse the two terms though.

ArthurDent

killbillvol2

I think basically we agree, but the INTO do define it in terms of seniority (length of time in service must be in permenant position)

http://www.into.ie/ROI/SchoolAdministration/PupilEnrolment/Seniority/



Seniority


Below is the text of Circular 02/04: Seniority of Primary Teachers which is also available for download by clicking here


Introduction


The Minister for Education and Science has revised the criteria for seniority of permanent teachers in Primary Schools.


The terms of Rules 96 and 98 (1) of the Rules for National Schools are hereby revised.

Importance of Seniority


The sequence in which mainstream class teachers are appointed to a school determines the seniority of teachers. Seniority is important in determining teachers' eligibility for an acting post of responsibility and in deciding the order in which teachers are eligible to be placed on the panel when the enrolment figures drop sufficiently to warrant the suppression of a post.


Responsibility of Board of Management


The board of management, based on the teachers' date of commencement of duty in a school in a permanent capacity, determines the seniority of teachers. An exception to this is where a teacher is on a statutory absence when appointed to the post eg. maternity leave, adoptive leave etc., in such instances the teacher's seniority commences from the date of appointment to the post.


Once a teacher's order of seniority has been established by the board it cannot be changed without the prior sanction of the patron.


Each board of management should ensure that the seniority listing of teachers is posted on the staff notice board each September. If teachers have not had their seniority established prior to appointment they should request a statement of order of seniority from the board on commencement of duty in the school.

Rules for Determining Seniority


A principal teacher is always the most senior teacher in a school, irrespective of length of service given in a school.


Please see below in relation to the seniority of a principal teacher who relinquishes his/her post of principal.


Service given previously in the same school as a substitute or temporary (qualified or unqualified) teacher does not count towards seniority.


A permanent teacher's ranking for seniority purposes will only commence from the date that a teacher is fully qualified.


If two or more permanent teachers commence duty on the same day, the board of management should establish the order of seniority based on the order the teachers were listed as a result of an interview process, i.e. the teacher who was ranked highest following the interview process should be given the higher seniority rating.


If a permanent teacher leaves a school either voluntarily or is redeployed and is reappointed to the school in a permanent capacity at a later date then the teacher's seniority will only commence from the date of reappointment.


Job sharing service is reckoned as full service for the purpose of seniority. Authorised absences eg. career break, maternity leave, adoptive leave, parental leave, paternity leave, sick leave do not affect a teacher’s seniority.

Seniority in an Amalgamated School


In the case of an amalgamated school, where a teacher has given unbroken permanent service continuously in one or more of the schools being amalgamated, the aggregate of that service will be reckoned in determining seniority.


A principal(s) who becomes a privileged assistant(s) in the amalgamated school will retain a seniority ranking next to the principal, irrespective of the length of actual service in their former school(s). Where there is more than one privileged assistant it is the length of service as principal of the former school which determines the order of seniority. (The seniority of a privileged assistant who is redeployed via the panel or who voluntarily moves into a school will commence from the date of taking up duty in the new school).

Seniority of Principal Teacher who relinquishes post of Principal


A principal teacher can only relinquish a post of principal teacher provided there is a permanent vacancy in the school. Where a principal teacher relinquishes the post of principal s/he becomes the most junior teacher in the school. Previous service given as a principal in the school does not count for seniority purposes.

Supply Panel


As outlined in Circular 50/97 a supply teacher shall not be compulsorily redeployed to the redeployment panel (even if they are the most junior teacher in the school) other than in the context of the withdrawal of the supply service from the host school or applying, following the completion of two years supply work for inclusion on the redeployment panel appropriate to the host school.


As outlined in Primary Circular 12/02 all supply teachers appointed on or after 1 April 2002 should be assigned a seniority ranking at the time of their appointment to the base school in the normal manner. Supply teachers appointed before 1 April 2002 should be assigned a seniority ranking as if they were appointed to the school as of 1 April 2002. This is necessary to ensure that no member of the current mainstream staff have their seniority ranking disimproved at the time of integration of the supply teacher to school staff for seniority purposes. Such a ranking will have little practical effect as long as the teacher remains on supply duties, however, in the event that a supply teacher transfers, with the consent of the board, to mainstream duties in the base school his/her seniority ranking will have full effect and will reflect his/her total service in the school.


When making appointments to the mainstream staff of the school, the board should appraise appointees that there is a supply panel scheme attached to the school and that the supply teachers have a seniority ranking which may be activated in the event that a supply teacher transfers from supply duties to mainstream duties.

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killbillvol2

I'm not getting into a pissing contest here. Eligibility for promotion is based on length of service in the first instance, not seniority. Not only permanent service counts (see below). Seniority may be used in the unlikely event of a tie. You're quoting from the wrong part of the INTO website and from the wrong circular. (I'm an INTO Branch Secretary and a school principal). Your information is wrong as regards promotion. Here's the relevant section:

h) The selection of the successful candidate shall be based on three criteria. Each of the criteria is of equal weighting. The criteria are as follows:

willingness to participate in the school's middle management structures by undertaking the additional responsibilities specified in the list of duties;
experience gained through length of service in the school (see * below); and
capability to perform the duties attaching to the post (see ** below).

i) Where two or more candidates are ranked equally in all three criteria, it is open to a selection board to determine the outcome by reference to the seniority ranking of the teachers in the school.


j) Having interviewed such applicants as present themselves, the selection board shall submit a written report to the board of management nominating the applicant whom it considers most suitable for appointment to the post.


* Calculation of length of service for the purpose of appointment to post of responsibility:


Leave of absence of one school year or longer, taken after 1 September 1999, is not reckonable as service e.g. secondment, career break.

All leave of absence taken prior to the 1 September 1999 is reckonable.

Maternity leave, leave in lieu of maternity leave, unpaid maternity leave, adoptive leave, unpaid adoptive leave, leave in lieu of adoptive leave, parental leave and certified sick leave do not constitute leave of absence for this purpose.

Leave of absence for periods of less than a school year is reckonable and does not affect the year in question being fully counted;

Qualified permanent, temporary and substitute service given in the school where the post of responsibility is arising for a minimum of 60 days in any one school year will reckon as a full year. The reckoning of such service is subject to the verification of such service being possible. A maximum of 1 year's credit may be granted in respect of any one school year. Service in any one school year which is less than 60 days will not be reckonable;

Job sharing is reckonable on the basis that one school year job-sharing counts as one year's service; and

Service given in a school prior to its amalgamation into the existing school is reckonable.

** In assessing criteria, i.e. capability, it is open to a selection board to consider relevant experience gained by a teacher whilst s/he was on leave of absence, including career break or secondment.

TheDriver

Even length of service isn't a massive issue anymore, in my school a 35 year service didn't get a sdt post in preference to a 9year, 8 year and 6 year service candidates (in that order!!).

killbillvol2

TheDriver wrote:

Even length of service isn't a massive issue anymore, in my school a 35 year service didn't get a sdt post in preference to a 9year, 8 year and 6 year service candidates (in that order!!).

Very true. I remember representing a teacher with 32 years service who appealed the appointment of a teacher with only 6. She won the appeal because the selection panel didn't have all their ducks in a row but they just readvertised and appointed the same person! You can't appeal twice.

MathsManiac

Now, now, boys and girls; all this arguing is completely irrelevant, since the original question related to appointments to posts of responsibility in secondary schools.

In the secondary sector, the interview board determines which applicants are suitable for the post. All suitable applicants are then listed in order of seniority. Thus, the only way that the most senior person can fail to get the post is if the interview board establishes that they're unsuitable, (which doesn't happen all that much, and there is an appeal procedure).

The relevant circular is 5/98, and an appendix details the mechanism for determining seniority. The service outside the state does not count. If you're tied after service in the school, it then goes to service in schools under the jurisdiction of the Department of Education and Science, and then date of birth. (See paragraph (d) of appendix 2). Sorry, Newgal.

The circular is available at the asti website. Direct link:
http://www.asti.ie/circ98/circ5_98.htm

newgal

So does service done outside the EU not count...? I assume it counts for pay?

newgal

OK so the asti has told me over the phone that outside EU service does not count towards service for seniority. Does that mean that it is the same with the Dept? Anyone who knows anything about this if you could add to this it would be great!

Thank you!

MathsManiac

Your original question was about seniority in the context of posts of responsibility.

Recognition of teaching service for the purposes of pay is referred to as "incremental credit" and is a different issue entirely.

The current position is detailed in an agreed scheme called the
"Consolidated scheme for the award of incremental credit to Recognised Teachers at Second Level (as amended by Agreed Report 6/2005)"

It's given in the following circular:
http://www.asti.ie/pdfs/Circulars/2007/IncrementalCredit292007.pdf

Service outside the EU is reckonable subject to a max of 7 years, so your 5 years should count. You have to apply for the credit and provide the necesary evidence. There's a hyperlink to the application form from within the circular.

Hope this helps. I suggest you call the ASTI again if you've any trouble sorting it out.

newgal

Maths maniac, I have pmed you. I am actually trying to find out about seniority, more so than pay. You have been very helful to date and I appreciate that!