IT job madness

Raekwon

I work in IT and recently there have been a few changes at work which have me concerned to the extent that I could possibly jump ship. At the moment I am looking around on some job sites just to get a better idea of what’s out there as I have not had to do this for awhile. (For the record, I always stay away from recruiters and try companies directly).

My question is: Has the IT recruitment world gone completely mad?

Here are a few examples. The first job that I looked at insisted that an MCSE was required for a helpdesk role The second one looked more promising (Network Support) but ended with “software and web development skills essential”. I could be wrong but is that not three jobs in one? Another one was for a Field Technician role that required experience with Exchange Server, MAC OS X Server, and Windows Server 2000/2003, that sounds more like a Systems Administrator to me. Plus the salaries are surprisingly well below what you would expect for such jobs.

Plus a mate of mine told me that he went for an interview in a prestigious hotel in Dublin for a systems admin role only to find out at the interview that the IT Manager was actually infact interviewing him to be his potential replacement!

Is it getting to the stage where candidates will need a few Hons Degrees, a few MCSE's plus a CCIE coupled with a shed load of experience just to land a run-of-the-mill job in IT??? :rolleyes:

easyontheeye

Raekwon wrote:

I work in IT and recently there have been a few changes at work which have me concerned to the extent that I could possibly jump ship. At the moment I am looking around on some job sites just to get a better idea of what’s out there as I have not had to do this for awhile. (For the record, I always stay away from recruiters and try companies directly).

My question is: Has the IT recruitment world gone completely mad?

Here are a few examples. The first job that I looked at insisted that an MCSE was required for a helpdesk role The second one looked more promising (Network Support) but ended with “software and web development skills essential”. I could be wrong but is that not three jobs in one? Another one was for a Field Technician role that required experience with Exchange Server, MAC OS X Server, and Windows Server 2000/2003, that sounds more like a Systems Administrator to me. Plus the salaries are surprisingly well below what you would expect for such jobs.

Plus a mate of mine told me that he went for an interview in a prestigious hotel in Dublin for a systems admin role only to find out at the interview that the IT Manager was actually infact interviewing him to be his potential replacement!

Is it getting to the stage where candidates will need a few Hons Degrees, a few MCSE's plus a CCIE coupled with a shed load of experience just to land a run-of-the-mill job in IT??? :rolleyes:

i think the recruiters are chancing their arm trying to get as many skills in the one person as they can. in most cases if you tick one or two of the boxes they are happy, most jons iv gone for and landed i rarely had all the skills they were looking for. its like everything you always advertise for more than you need

jhegarty

Raekwon wrote:

Here are a few examples. The first job that I looked at insisted that an MCSE was required for a helpdesk role

I think it depends what they mean by helpdesk.... there are different levels of helpdesk ranging from just about minimum wage to ones that pay high 20s (or low 30s in Dublin)....

seamus

jhegarty wrote:

I think it depends what they mean by helpdesk.... there are different levels of helpdesk ranging from just about minimum wage to ones that pay high 20s (or low 30s in Dublin)....

Well, I wouldn't expect anyone with an MCSE to be sitting at anything but a 3rd or 4th level helpdesk, and getting paid low thirties as a minimum.

Recruiters and employers want the best staff possible for the lowest cost possible. They'll ask for MCSA/MCP's when in reality they'll be happy with a college diploma and a year's experience.

joePC

I wouldn't pay much attention to MCSE requirments it means nothing without experience. I worked with a CCIE for about 6 months before who could bearly put together a VPN so I think your safe.

run_Forrest_run

I have noticed an incrase in the list of demands on the candidate for a particlar role alright. I have noticed this even in companies I have worked in. I was looking at one job advert for a position similar to my own in the company I worked in and to be honest it was crazy, if the same demands were on me at the time I went for my job I would not have had much luck!

I feel since the IT sector has cooled down in the last few years as employers now feel they can squeeze more out of people actually paying them accordingly.

Also in an area so competitive many companies are trying to combine many roles into one thus saving on the wage bill.

flash harry

easyontheeye wrote:

i think the recruiters are chancing their arm trying to get as many skills in the one person as they can. in most cases if you tick one or two of the boxes they are happy, most jons iv gone for and landed i rarely had all the skills they were looking for. its like everything you always advertise for more than you need

this is counter productive - talent is in short supply and the more unneeded qulaifications you put in a job description the more (capable) people you are excluding and by default the more likely you are not to get someone.

dazberry

flash harry wrote:

this is counter productive - talent is in short supply

Its not just talent, as big a factor seems to be price. Its so incredibly short-sighted yet time and time again I see it and it always seems to end up costing more (well in software dev anyway).

I actually witnessed one company advertise a level down for each job, so for instance if you went for the senior dev role, they actually interviewed you for the dev manager role. If it worked they saved themselves a small fortune, but with good dev skills (especially in what they were looking for) thin on the ground they most likely shot themselves in the foot.

D.

eth0_

seamus wrote:

Well, I wouldn't expect anyone with an MCSE to be sitting at anything but a 3rd or 4th level helpdesk, and getting paid low thirties as a minimum.

Recruiters and employers want the best staff possible for the lowest cost possible. They'll ask for MCSA/MCP's when in reality they'll be happy with a college diploma and a year's experience.

LOL! MCSE isn't worth the paper its written on unless it is backed up with substantial real-world experience!

I don't place much importance on certifications that can be achieved by downloading the answers to their multiple-choice exams off the internet and learning them off.

Lab exam based certs > MCSE types.

seamus

eth0_ wrote:

LOL! MCSE isn't worth the paper its written on unless it is backed up with substantial real-world experience!

I don't place much importance on certifications that can be achieved by downloading the answers to their multiple-choice exams off the internet and learning them off.

To be fair, I agree to a point. No certification is a sufficient substitute for experience. More recent MS certs though carry more credibility than the 2k ones and before. They're much difficult to pass through braindumping and the answers are much harder to get your hands on, online. They also put a lot more emphasis on practical questions.
That's not to say they can't be passed with a weekend of cramming, but the more advanced ones required for the MCSE are much more difficult to pass without some experience to back it up.

Raekwon

eth0_ wrote:

LOL! MCSE isn't worth the paper its written on unless it is backed up with substantial real-world experience!

I totally agree, but it is not helping the industry when companies are advertising entry level helpdesk roles that require an MCSE, that is just ridiculous. If this trend continues then people with minimal real world experience will be obviously looking for easy ways to get certified and this will no doubt led them to braindumps which in turn will further erode the credibility of IT certs.

youcancallmeal

I think the problem is that the people who are creating these job specs actually have no idea whats involved in doing the job. How is someone from HR going to know what an MCSE qualification is and even whats involved in getting one?

the_syco

TBH, most of the companies who ask for this haven't a clue. They bring you in for a deskside support interview, and you ask something such as "will I be working on the machines", and they look at you like you've grown a third head, look at the job spec, and talk some bull about "it's a great job, with a well known company, starting off with a great salery".

Look hard enough, and you'll come across the same job in two places. One asking for 6 months experience, and some knowledge of XP, the other wanting an MCSE of XP, 4 years of using Vista...:rolleyes:

ToxicPaddy

I saw a company from the midlands advertising through an agency for an inhouse technical position, sys admin type role..

At the time I was looking for a job, so opened the link and I couldnt believe what I was seeing.. it looked as if someone had basically opened a book of IT terminology and listed out everything they could find..

Add to that pittance they were paying and it really drove home to me the fact that whoever wrote this spec (more than likely the recruitment consultant or the HR person for this company) really didnt have a clue what they were looking for and didnt do a tap of research on job spec, job requirements and market rates..

testicle

joePC wrote:

I worked with a CCIE for about 6 months before who could bearly put together a VPN so I think your safe.

I dout they were a CCIE so, how the hell did they pass their exam?

Raekwon

I'm actually quite scared to send out my CV now after checking a few more sites today. I've seen way to many roles with ridiculous demands but this one takes the biscuit, check out the list of specs for this Data Centre Technician role direct from the employer:

Location: Dublin City Centre
Role Type: Permanent
Rate/Salary: Competitive

The ideal candidate would have the following:
● Networking: Experience with Cisco’s Cat & Native IOS.Switch configuration & troubleshooting. Copper cable termination. Understanding of fiber optic cabling.
● Systems: General knowledge of Linux/Unix with troubleshooting experience. Operational knowledge of Microsoft Windows 2003 Server & Windows XP Pro. Base operating system install. System administration. Scripting: Perl, Python, Bash
● Computer/Server Hardware: HP/Compaq Proliant Servers – possess or obtain within three months of hire, an APS certification on the Proliant products. Knowledge of the x86 platform & SAN architecture.
● HVAC (Heating, Ventilating, & Air-Conditioning):Power distribution units (PDUs) & uninterrupted power supplies (UPS).Fire suppression systems. Diesel generators. Air handlers & chillers.

See the last line? Not really ask for much there are they? :rolleyes:

Ishmael

Understanding of fiber optic cabling

Whats there to understand? It's cabling in the ground or walls that allows faster transmission of data than copper cabling.

I'd say thats one of those C.V. lures recruitment agencies use.

homeOwner

Raekwon wrote:

I'm actually quite scared to send out my CV now after checking a few more sites today. I've seen way to many roles with ridiculous demands but this one takes the biscuit, check out the list of specs for this Data Centre Technician role direct from the employer:
See the last line? Not really ask for much there are they? :rolleyes:

Some companies are required to advertise their jobs externally even if they have an internal candidate earmarked for the job. They have to been seen to be looking for the best person for the role so they make the job spec so specific that only the internal candidate has any chance of getting it. My company does that to ensure a good mix of candidates for all job openings so it cant be said they didnt hire the best person for the job. I know its sort of underhand, but I guess even HR have to cover their a$$es.

the_syco

Raekwon wrote:

● HVAC (Heating, Ventilating, & Air-Conditioning):Power distribution units (PDUs) & uninterrupted power supplies (UPS).Fire suppression systems. Diesel generators. Air handlers & chillers.

See the last line? Not really ask for much there are they? :rolleyes:

I see the last line, but I don't see the problem. It'd be excessive for a Data Centre Admin, but by adding the "Technician" bit, they seem to want someone who can plan a server room. One of the few server rooms I was in had a rather extreme fire suppression systems, which if you were there, you'd die due to lack of oxygen, and the diesel generators would be needed for a 24/7 operation.

But yeah, it may seem to some like they want a jack-of-all-trades.

Raekwon

the_syco wrote:

I see the last line, but I don't see the problem. It'd be excessive for a Data Centre Admin, but by adding the "Technician" bit, they seem to want someone who can plan a server room. One of the few server rooms I was in had a rather extreme fire suppression systems, which if you were there, you'd die due to lack of oxygen, and the diesel generators would be needed for a 24/7 operation.

But yeah, it may seem to some like they want a jack-of-all-trades.

You don't see the problem? Are you serious? IMO this role is extremely excessive, which ever way you want to look at it.

Most people who work in Data Centres/Server Rooms have to look after the servers right? Their role would consist of maintaining/fixing servers, testing/troubleshooting server hardware, assembling racks, stuff like that. So asking these individuals to be Network Engineers and System Administrators also is ridiculous, the company should have other staff to fill these important roles. Also the vast majority of companies have third party MVAC specialists that come in and install/maintain their air-conditioning systems. Data Centre staff should only have to maintain the temperature (obviously senior members of staff would be involved in the designed process) but nobody should be expected to have direct experience with the actually air-conditioning equipment (which the specs in this role suggest). Quite frankly that is taking the piss. Btw, I would love to know what their 'competitive salary' is like for such a role :rolleyes:

Anyway, this was just an example of the way IT jobs seem to be going. The line between different roles has become blurred and many IT professionals seem to be taking on a couple of roles just so the company can save a few quid. Maybe they could get a few HR people to chip in and share the workload

seamus

Raekwon wrote:

Most people who work in Data Centres/Server Rooms have to look after the servers right? Their role would consist of maintaining/fixing servers, testing/troubleshooting server hardware, assembling racks, stuff like that. So asking these individuals to be Network Engineers and System Administrators also is ridiculous, the company should have other staff to fill these important roles.

Depends on the size of server room to be fair. I would be worried if a Sys Admin had no knowledge of server room hardware and networking. In a smaller company with a server room consisting of perhaps 20 machines, having a hardware tech, a network engineer and a sys admin would be overkill. One person (well two really) could easily manage that infrastructure.

r0nn13

testicle wrote:

I dout they were a CCIE so, how the hell did they pass their exam?

Passing an exam does not mean you can do the job as i worked with an MCSE certified manager and all his staff knew more about servers and networks than him...

Proper real world experience of working in IT is more valuable than paper certs... To IT folk anyway...

Ask a manager with no IT background and you get the "must be more certified than the last guy we had", after all if there were no certs in IT how would non-IT decision makers employ anyone...

pwd

Some people think fancy job specs make the person putting the job spec together and hiring the candidate look like they know lots of fancy technologies etc. Trying to blind people with science, usually to conceal a lack of knowledge.

The spec for my last job included something called Universal Messaging language. It took me a while to realise they meant UML.

Nody

r0nn13 wrote:

Passing an exam does not mean you can do the job

Do you even KNOW what the CCIE exam entails? I strongly suggest you read up a bit on it here.

Jumpy

Nody wrote:

Do you even KNOW what the CCIE exam entails? I strongly suggest you read up a bit on it here.

I LOVE the idea of practical tests. I find theory very difficult. But I am extremely good at the practical side. Its the reason why I am currently at a high level in IT but without any certs.
If only the Microsoft stuff was practical.

the_syco

Nody wrote:

Do you even KNOW what the CCIE exam entails? I strongly suggest you read up a bit on it here.

Some people can learn, learn well, but not know how to put what they learnt into effect in the real world. The easist example would be a programmer. They may pass every assignment, every exam, as they know what to do. But give him an unknown, and they're f**ked.

fret_wimp

I agree that certs do not prove that someone can perform in a work environment, but at least the Microsoft Certificates are getting tougher, and require users to have working knowledge of the area being tested.I work with sql server 2005 on a daily basis, and I decided to take the the 70-431 exam, and its tough stuff, you need to study the material and do the examples, along with being very familiar with the product to begin with, so i believe that this exam, along with improving my skills, proves that i have the skills.

Certs are not all about the skill you should gain from having them, to managers, or companies, someone with a cert is demonstrating that they can work under their own initiave towards self improvement and also that the person wishes to improve themselves. So nevermind the IT knowledge, it demonstrates some admirable and desirable traits people look for in employees.
I totally agree that experience is better than certs, but if you can have both then all the better!

If I went for an interview for a new job, and one of my competitors was equal to me in knowledge, id still get the job as i went that bit further to get the cert. So certs, when taken in the correct context are well worth obtaining.