Patriots fined and lose 1st round pick for cheating

Chucky the tree

Been a very damaging few weeks for Pats. First we find out one of there star players during the SB wins is a drugs cheat and now this.

Fines:
Belicheck $500K
Pats $200K


If they make the play-offs they lose there 1st round pick, other wise they lose the 2nd and 3rd.


How he wasnt suspended i'll never know, a joke.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EU1O-hGxgg

tallaghtoutlaws

I said this on the iafs forum and will say it here. What the Patriots did everyone does only the clown doing it for the Patriots got caught. Did it help the Patriots against the Jets hell no the Jets were Rubbish and The Pats opened them up like a can of sardines. Sick of people telling me the Patriots are cheats grow the fook up they didnt win superbowls using the video they won with a great program and a team that worked as one unit. This year they will prove their critics wrong. jesus Patriots have 2 mistakes and every clown gets on their backs over it. Lets take all the other teams in the league who have more than 5 players over the break with DUI charges drug charges potential suspensions and what not.

The game against the Jets sunday check it for yourselves get a stop watch and count the amount of time Tom Brady was given in the pocket there was one play he was standing like a statue looking for option for 7 seconds and he eventually hit Ben watson for a 1st down. No video tape on the day can get all 5 o-linemen blocking that well.

So Patriots critics go and pull yourselves off somewhere else and come back to us when you have actually won a bowl usually always idiots who suppot teams that will probably never come close to one.

There my rant is done. Im angry sitting in Dublin airport waiting to head to US and fooking plane delayed coming on 3 hours now. :mad:

Manny7

Chucky the tree wrote:

How he wasnt suspended i'll never know, a joke.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EU1O-hGxgg

He wasn't suspended because there was a difference of opinion over the legality of what they were doing. Belichick is saying that they were filming to use the tape after the game, not to use in the game, and that he mistakenly believed this was OK. Hard to disprove this based on the reported evidence.

People hate the Patriots and love the chance to jump on them, which is understandable as they've been consistenly so good for the past few years, but it's time to move on. They'll lose a 1st rounder, it's not the end of the world as they have 2 this year anyway. Hopefully this fires them up and they go 16-0....

LuckyLloyd

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

I said this on the iafs forum and will say it here. What the Patriots did everyone does only the clown doing it for the Patriots got caught. Did it help the Patriots against the Jets hell no the Jets were Rubbish and The Pats opened them up like a can of sardines. Sick of people telling me the Patriots are cheats grow the fook up they didnt win superbowls using the video they won with a great program and a team that worked as one unit. This year they will prove their critics wrong. jesus Patriots have 2 mistakes and every clown gets on their backs over it. Lets take all the other teams in the league who have more than 5 players over the break with DUI charges drug charges potential suspensions and what not.

The game against the Jets sunday check it for yourselves get a stop watch and count the amount of time Tom Brady was given in the pocket there was one play he was standing like a statue looking for option for 7 seconds and he eventually hit Ben watson for a 1st down. No video tape on the day can get all 5 o-linemen blocking that well.

So Patriots critics go and pull yourselves off somewhere else and come back to us when you have actually won a bowl usually always idiots who suppot teams that will probably never come close to one.

There my rant is done. Im angry sitting in Dublin airport waiting to head to US and fooking plane delayed coming on 3 hours now. :mad:

I'm a Jets fan. We were pants on Sunday. We were always getting hammered.

And you may very well be right when you say that the only mistake the Patriots made was getting caught (I have no idea whether this is true or not. Are ALL teams doing this type of rubbish?).

HOWEVER:

You surely cannot claim that what they have been found doing is right. Or fair. Can you? And therefore a message needs to be sent out that this is not acceptable behaviour. Does it not?

As such, for blatant abuse of the rules I find that punishment to be MILD. It would seem to me that the coach should have served a ban from the sidelines for an extended period. It should be first three draftpicks irrespective of whether they make the playoffs or not. And the fines should be heavtier. Like, really go to town on them. Ultimately, the punishments need to be of a nature so that the message is clear:

This cheating is not worth it when the risk of getting caught is so severe.

Chucky the tree

tallaghtoutlaws wrote:

So Patriots critics go and pull yourselves off somewhere else and come back to us when you have actually won a bowl usually always idiots who suppot teams that will probably never come close to one.

There my rant is done. Im angry sitting in Dublin airport waiting to head to US and fooking plane delayed coming on 3 hours now. :mad:

I am sure if every team cheated just like that Pats then they would all win SB's aswell.

He wasn't suspended because there was a difference of opinion over the legality of what they were doing. Belichick is saying that they were filming to use the tape after the game, not to use in the game, and that he mistakenly believed this was OK. Hard to disprove this based on the reported evidence.

He was suspended because Goodell felt the punishment was harsh enough, it had nothing to do with the difference of opinion.

Goodell said he had considered suspending Belichick but didn't "largely because I believe that the discipline I am imposing of a maximum fine and forfeiture of a first-round draft choice, or multiple draft choices, is in fact more significant and long-lasting, and therefore more effective, than a suspension."

How long has he been headcoach in the nfl for?! And he says he still doesnt know the rules, yea right. :rolleyes:

You think after Green bay last year he would brushed up on that particular rule aswell.

Manny7

Chucky the tree wrote:

I am sure if every team cheated just like that Pats then they would all win SB's aswell.

I can't believe for one second that there was only one team doing this. No way.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/columnists/20070914_Rich_Hofmann___Lets_be_candid.html

de5p0i1er

They cheated and they deserve to be punished, thats the way it is.
I'm a Patriots fan and I'm pissed to see them screw up like this but at least its over with maybe now they'll get over it and go on to win a few more games.

BizzyC

Signal stealing is tho whole reason why QB's wear speakers in their helmets.

You cant tell me that this practice began as a needless excercise.
The video the Pats were taking would only be of use for a 2nd encounter between the teams this season.

I think it's incredibly naive to think for one minute that the Pats are the only team who've broken the rules like this. Bottom line though, they got caught, mainly because Mangini's staff was prepared, Mangini having worked under Bill, and deserved to be punished.

Anyone who thinks that they one SB's by cheating needs to look at the games. If they are big cheats, how'd they lose to the Broncos 2 years ago? They should have been able to tear that defence apart had they been cheating.


Also, regarding Harrisons suspension. He wasnt on drugs for any of the past seasons. He used HGH in the offseason to recover from injury, has no weight on any of the past seasons.

Chucky the tree

I never said he was on drugs for the past few seconds.


I am pretty suprisd people seem too think cheating is perfectly acceptable, or that because everyone else does it(althought no one else has ever been caught, strange that..) they shouldnt be punished.

If any player is steps out of line he is banned for usually 4 matches minimum, i dont understand why when a coach does he doesnt get a ban.

BizzyC

I'm not saying its acceptable, they deserved to be punished for it, and they did.

You insinuated that they won SB's because they cheat, which I think is ridiculous. To think that Bill Bellichick is the only coach who does/has done it is extremely naive. The fact that we have measures in place to prevent it, such as offensive plays being called via microphone to the QB's helmet, is proof.

If you look at the SB's that New England have won, they were close games, 2 of which came down to Vinatieri's leg. Also if you look at their most recent playoff losses, the secondary read Brady and played well enough to shut down the pass, something that should be impossible to do if he knows what they're doing....
Last year they beat the Chargers mainly out of luck and bad decisions by Shottenheimer.

For the ban, I think Goodell made a good call. Losing Bill wouldn't have had a huge impact on the Pats. It's a team that's full of veteran players and coaches who are very familiar with the system, Bill could've done enough by telling the coaches what to do. They may have lost one or two games more, but they'd probably be in the same place at the seasons end, with a clean slate next year. This way the future of the team will be affected.
Everyone says that picks arent big to the Pats, but if you look at that team, they have a large number of starters who were 1st round picks:
Richard Seymour,
Daniel Graham,
Ty Warren,
Vince Wilfork,
Benjamin Watson,
Logan Mankins,
Laurence Maroney.

All of these players, except Graham who is now a Bronco, are or have been pivitol to their success. I'm sure Merriweather will be as important in the future. To take away their ability to add players like this is a big deal...

BizzyC

Just to add, that list of players is every 1st round pick Bill has had at the Pats, losing his next one will have an affect.

Chucky the tree

My reply to TOL was more sarcasim. I just didnt like the fact that he implies you have too win a SB to have an opinion. His reply pretty summed up why alot people hate the Pats, a very arrogant organisation who think they are better then everyone else. At this als highlights the fact that despite getting caught last year but getting away with it, they could out and do it again a year later.

Basically stuck there fingers up at the nfl and said "We dont care if we cheat or if we get caught".


I actually heard that Bill might be leaving for the giants next year, dont know how true that is. I think if the win the SB he could definitly go as it cant really do much more there.

heyjude

The purpose of the punishment is to lay down a marker, to stop an 'arms race' as teams try to out-do each other to find new ways, either ethical or otherwise to win games. These measures could include intercepting radio transmissions to the QB and bugging the visiting teams coaching booth and dressing room.

But the punishment while seeming severe at first, is actually very mild. True, the Patriots will lose a first round draft pick, but they had two first round picks next year, so they will be no worse off than any other team, while the fines are pretty insignificant.

Look at what McLaren were fined in Formula 1 for having a copy of the technical manual for their rivals(Ferrari) car, they were fined $100m and had all their constructors championship points deducted.

And Leeds United were docked 15 points at the starting of this season, for going into administration and so started the season with -15pts.

Compared to these punishments, the Patriots got off lightly.

There have also been indications that this wasn't the first time that the Patriots had been caught doing this, but it was the first time the evidence had been handed over to the league, the same guy who was taping in this instance was apparently escorted out of a Packers game in Wisconsin last season.

Lirange

The Pats coaching staff got caught. The rest of the league is on notice. The NFL is no longer going to look the other way like they have for the past few decades.

Although like Mangini and Holmgren have pointed out any team that uses the same signal calling against the same team twice isn't a very smart one. Nice gamesmanship by Mangini to wait a couple years to set the trap.

I do think some people need to get off the moral high horse on this one as this sort of behavior by coaching staffs has been rampant throughout the league. It would be foolish to assume that any team is a paragon of virtue. Schottenheimer must be seething that only now the NFL is cracking down on videotaping signals. Shanahan is widely believed to have employed video spying dating back to the 80s. Marty filed complaints (w/ evidence) when he was coach of the Browns and Chiefs who seemed to fall every year to the Elway led Broncos in the AFC divisional title game. Bucs coach Gruden and Jags coach Del Rio have downplayed the incident saying it's part of the game. That should tell you something. If the NFL wants to get tough now and do more of these mini-sting operations then power to them.

Espionage long part of NFL intrigue

Chucky your aul boy Al Davis doesn't have a clean slate either!

jaarius

I am a Pats fan and I am a bit pissed at this also.

A $500k personal fine is huge though with the money that BB makes he can take this in his stride. The $250k fine to the franchise is a token gesture the loss of a 1st round pick (I think they are a safe bet to make the play offs) is huge albeit a deserved punishment.

I am so happy though that the Pats went out and beat the crap out of San Diego last night.

Many people are saying that this puts a big question mark over the Pats success in the past. If the Pats make the SuperBowl this year or even win it will this remove that question mark? I guess time will tell.

j

hanton12

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ntw7G7enxEk

sums it up for me!!!


The Pats superbowls are in now way diminished, they play their football tough and get on with things. They were caught, and rightly punished. I'm sure others could have been caught at the same thing, but they werent and the Pats will serve as a lesson to others.

brav

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3abjis3S8zU this video shows what they were filming etc.

TBH I think every1 is doing but still I suppose they cant be seen as letting it go by

tallaghtoutlaws

Seriously though mountain out of a mole hill. Every team in the NFL has cheated or does cheat using methods of reading coaches actions etc etc just the Patriots got caught as Mangini knows Bill's methods. The reactions around the NFL about the cheating did not come from Coaches I have been in the US since it all came out and only players have showed any Oh my god how could this happen ask yourself why no coaches have publicly said anything about the Patriots methods why is because they all have methods simple fact. Is it right or wrong who are we to decide. Talking to football folk over here as to their reaction and all commented that Bill doesnt really need to cheat with the team he has Tom Brady could have sat back for hours in that pocket against both the Jets and Chargers with the superb blocking of his line and also for anyone to suggest the Pats cheated there way to 3 Bowls ask yourself why all 3 bowls had close scores and why the pats had thriller games getting there if they cheated surely the would have breezed thorugh the games.

Come on lets move from this as at the end of it all the Superbowl on AFC side again this year is going to be a 2 horse race between the Colts and Patriots as for the NFC who knows.

This whole cheat thing is fricking annoying media feeding crap to the masses the NFL should have and could have stamped it out 10 years ago but turned a blind eye and now with all the crap going on with the different player issues now they have decided to clamp down. Too little too late. Every team is doing it in their own way.

Manny7

Hopefully this is the end of it all

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3029661

Kinetic^

More tapes handed over yesterday from back in 2002. Wonder what fine they'll get this time.

tallaghtoutlaws

Kinetic^ wrote: »

More tapes handed over yesterday from back in 2002. Wonder what fine they'll get this time.

Unless the NFL find something wrong on the tapes they will get nothing. People seem to think the Patriots are handing over tapes that no other team has. They aint. The NFL are making sure that any footage taken by the Patriots has no more so called spy gate on it. Every team would have the same stack of tapes the Pats have built up.

Kinetic^

The Pats didn't hand over the tapes, an ex-employee did. I really should've linked to the story tbh. Here ya go......

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3386162&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

After brokering a deal to protect himself, former New England Patriots employee Matt Walsh has finally turned over his evidence in the videotaping controversy.

The New York Times reported and the NFL confirmed on Wednesday that Walsh sent eight tapes to the league that show the Patriots recording the play-calling signals of five opponents in six games between 2000 and 2002.

Taping the signals of opposing teams is prohibited by league rules, and the Patriots were already fined $750,000 and docked a first-round draft choice in September for taping the New York Jets. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell left open the possibility that more penalties could be levied.

A Patriots employee from 1997-2003, Walsh reached an agreement to turn over the tapes in exchange for being indemnified from all future legal fees.

The New York Times obtained a list of the Walsh tapes, and the league confirmed that list, which says that the Patriots taped offensive and defensive coaches in regular-season games against the Miami Dolphins, Buffalo Bills, Cleveland Browns and San Diego Chargers. The team also made video of the Pittsburgh Steelers in the 2002 AFC Championship Game.

Walsh's tapes do not include the video of the St. Louis Rams' walkthrough before the 2002 Super Bowl, as reported by the Boston Herald.

"Mr. Walsh has never claimed to have a tape of the walk-through," said Walsh's lawyer Michael Levy, according to the Times. "Mr. Walsh has never been the source of any of the media speculation about such a tape. Mr. Walsh was not the source for the Feb. 2 Boston Herald article."

Walsh has separate meetings scheduled on Tuesday with the commissioner and Senator Arlen Specter in which he is expected to provide additional details about the taping process.

Under his agreement with the league, Walsh can retain copies of his videotapes, but he cannot use them without the consent of the NFL.

tallaghtoutlaws

Oh those tapes expect Bob Kraft to take out his cheque book and say how much is this time and Bill B to do the same and we lose some draft picks but then will end up keeping those we traded due to the fact the organisation knew this was going to happen. Sure the Patriots admitted all this the first time round anyway.Good to see ESPN actually half use what the NFL site wrote :rolleyes:

NEW YORK -- Former Patriots video assistant Matt Walsh sent the NFL eight videotapes that show New England violated league rules by recording opposing coaches' play-calling signals.

The tapes include signals by coaches of five opponents in six games from 2000-02, but don't include video from the St. Louis Rams' walkthrough before Super Bowl XXXVI.
.

The NFL said it received a letter from Michael Levy, the lawyer for Walsh, detailing the tapes that were scheduled to arrive Thursday at the league's New York offices.

The tapes sent to the NFL show the Patriots recorded signals in regular-season games against Miami, Buffalo, Cleveland and San Diego, and against Pittsburgh in the 2002 AFC championship game.

"This is consistent with what the Patriots had admitted they had been doing, consistent with what we already knew," NFL spokesman Greg Aiello told The Associated Press.

The New York Times first reported the story on its Web site Wednesday night.

Walsh, who worked for New England from 1997 to 2003, agreed to turn over the tapes and other evidence by Thursday. He's scheduled to meet with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell next Tuesday about New England's taping of opposing teams.

"We're not going to comment," said Stacey James, the Patriots' vice president for media relations. He added he expected the team will wait to issue a statement until after Walsh meets with Goodell.

Walsh's name first surfaced just before this year's Super Bowl, nearly five months after the Patriots were sanctioned for illegally taping the New York Jets in the season opener -- resulting in a $500,000 fine for coach Bill Belichick, a $250,000 fine for the organization, and the loss of a first-round draft pick.

At that time, the Boston Herald also reported an unnamed Patriots employee illegally taped the Rams' final walkthrough before Super Bowl XXXVI, when New England, a major underdog, upset St. Louis 20-17.

Goodell previously has said he was fully prepared to crack down again on the Patriots if his meeting with Walsh uncovered a tape made of the Rams' walkthrough practice.

"Mr. Walsh has never claimed to have a tape of the walkthrough," Levy told The New York Times. "Mr. Walsh has never been the source of any of the media speculation about such a tape. Mr. Walsh was not the source for the Feb. 2 Boston Herald, article."

After more than two months of negotiations, lawyers for the league and Walsh finally reached an agreement on April 23 on terms that will allow him to talk with Goodell. They include an agreement by the Patriots not to sue Walsh and to pay his legal expenses and his airfare to New York from Hawaii, where he is now a golf pro

tallaghtoutlaws

Just to add to this Pre 2006 there was no clear ruling to the NFL teams what they could and couldn't tape. Senator Spector and all those clowns who were accusing the Patriots of Breaking the NFL's Rule knew damn well that unless Walsh had tapes of the Patriots shooting the warm up practices and walkthroughs of the Rams the NFL could do nothing against said shootings of signal calls as every team did it until the clarification of the rule by Roger Goodel in early 2007. Yes the Patriots did it after that said ruling and got punished for a tape the Patriots never even seen as it was confiscated :D

Crapjob Sean

Arlen Specter is only a bollix.

Pyjamarama

Surely no-one actually thinks that the NFL wanted this to come out? Making their poster boys wins look dodgy was the last thing they'd have wanted!!!

IMHo I think they got off lightly. I would have taken their entire draft at least. There's a reason every coach sits there for hours a day watching game footage, its to get a feel for the general play patterns of the opposition. If by studying practise tapes the pats got a half second jump on what the Rams were doing then it's a big deal.

Clearly they were a good enough team to be there but if Bill had been caught doing this when he was at cleveland (losing) then he'd prob have got kicked out of the NFL.

tallaghtoutlaws

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Surely no-one actually thinks that the NFL wanted this to come out? Making their poster boys wins look dodgy was the last thing they'd have wanted!!!

IMHo I think they got off lightly. I would have taken their entire draft at least. There's a reason every coach sits there for hours a day watching game footage, its to get a feel for the general play patterns of the opposition. If by studying practise tapes the pats got a half second jump on what the Rams were doing then it's a big deal.

Clearly they were a good enough team to be there but if Bill had been caught doing this when he was at cleveland (losing) then he'd prob have got kicked out of the NFL.

The only crime the Patriots committed was taping the Jets Last year. Pre 2006 the rule was so loose that when Goodell realized this he fixed it. What the NFL, Arlen Specter and every other clown was looking to come out of the tapes in 2002 was the Rams walk through and low and behold there was none. As for the signal taping that year was allowed to an extent because the rules didn't stop it hence why no coach has come out and said other wise to the Pats for it back in 2002. No coach is going to bring light to this. Another thing ask yourself why no NFL player or Coach has backed Arlen Specter in his latest conquest. I will tell if an inquest is made do you not think others will be found out also for similar cheating.

The Pats got caught in 2007 and got punished end of story.

tallaghtoutlaws

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Surely no-one actually thinks that the NFL wanted this to come out? Making their poster boys wins look dodgy was the last thing they'd have wanted!!!

Firstly some of the games taped in 2002 they lost and didn't even play that team for the rest of the season.

And you need to go to NFL.com or Fox or ESPN or and of the NFL related news sites and read all the articles again.

The NFL don't want anymore on this because they know if Specter goes to deep he will find cheating all over the shop and it will make the NFL look bad on a whole. Why Specter is even comparing this to Baseball is beyond me Drugs is a whole different issue.

Pyjamarama

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Firstly some of the games taped in 2002 they lost and didn't even play that team for the rest of the season.

And you need to go to NFL.com or Fox or ESPN or and of the NFL related news sites and read all the articles again.

The NFL don't want anymore on this because they know if Specter goes to deep he will find cheating all over the shop and it will make the NFL look bad on a whole. Why Specter is even comparing this to Baseball is beyond me Drugs is a whole different issue.

slow down there! I'm not condoning Spector here at all. In fact I think the issue should be let to rest now but I do take exception to people who claim that this in no way impacts the legacy of the Pats superbowl teams. It clearly does. In my mind Bill has sullied his record as one of the best HC in history, and if you think this won't be debated for decades your crazy. He tried to take a shortcut and got caught.

Also players/coaches may not have jumped on the Spector bandwagon but what have they to gain from it? They have far more important things to worry about.

The clarification on the ruling is a fair point and yes it does impact what the Pats may or may not have done in 2006 but to say "everyone did it is crazy". Tony Dungy has stated that he never recorded practices and so have a few others (andy reid, norv turner etc). At best they new it was streching the rules beyond acceptable boundries. It was bad practise although I guess given that they won the damn superbowl that kind of sounds stupid...

I'm not here to start an arguement just put over an alternate view point from a non pats fan.