Best table ever ....

fuzzbox

So I sit at a table...

HUD comes up and

To my left is dude who is 15/8 over 800 hands.
To my right is 18/10 over 500
2 to my right is 16/9 over 300
3 to my right is 19/12 over 400

one guy is unknown.

Everyone of them is a loser over the hands that I have them logged at ... but the question is ... how fast do you get up?

cardshark202

If they are big losers I might stay, but it depends how many tables you plan on playing. If you plan on playing less than 4 say and its on ipoker I would def get up quick as there will be lots of better tables

The_Chopper

fuzzbox wrote:

So I sit at a table...

HUD comes up and

To my left is dude who is 15/8 over 800 hands.
To my right is 18/10 over 500
2 to my right is 16/9 over 300
3 to my right is 19/12 over 400

one guy is unknown.

Everyone of them is a loser over the hands that I have them logged at ... but the question is ... how fast do you get up?

EXPLAIN

Rb

Play crazy lag, try to tilt them and sit there reaping the benefits?

fuzzbox

rb_ie wrote:

Play crazy lag, try to tilt them and sit there reaping the benefits?

yeah, I tried that, but 3 orbits where nobody called a single preflop raise ... and I got up and found another table.

opr

This kinda thriggered something i was thinking about lately Fuzz. I also read this recently "When Genius Failed" by "Roger Lowenstein" which got me thinking about this subject orginally

I would like to premise this by saying i have no educational background in any sort of business/accountancy displines so these are just some ramdom thoughts.

The more information you have on that market the more money you can make. The more study and work you put into the market the better more informed choices you make in relation to it. Alot of the time its idiots within the market that have no clue what they should be doing that makes it so profitable for others to operate within it.

As this market gets older more people gain similar information which makes it harder to trade profitabilty on this market. As this happens smarter people get together and come up with ways to improve how they operate within the market.
The market eventaully becomes so streamlined that it is only profitable for the best to operate within it in and even then thier profit margins are narrow.

That all is a very simplistic view of how i presume some of the basics in a market work. So what the hell has this got to do with poker.

Poker is like any market , Its the people who have information on the market and how to operate well within that market who are profitable ones.

Now eventually even the basics of the market become common knowledge to most people within it. This is when people look to better ways to beat the game(Market) with more complex ideas and strategy.

The poker market has been very lucky in that TV and the "moneymaker" effect caused a massive boom with the influx of huge amounts of money and unskilled traders.

Ok so at the moment we have a market albiet a complex one but nonetheless very beatable with its current state.
90% idiots(fish) vs 10% Skillfull players (Profitable traders).

Getting back to Fuzzes post, Hand selection is one of the most basic fundamental skills needed to be a winning poker player. I believe that more and more players know this skill when they enter the market already.

Poker is becoming an old market where the fundamentals are known by almost everyone entering the market. (Tv while in general its terrible for leaning poker it does teach hand selection) So seeing that they are selective in hands means very little now in relation to how good/bad, experienced or knoledgable a player is anymore.

Over time new players will continue to get tougher as they now have more information, better resources access to coaching etc etc ( The market getting tougher) Hopefully at this stage the more experience players will also be better and have formed new ways to beat the now evolved game.

But surely a stage will be reached when the market is streamlined enough that only the really top class players will continue to beat the market and for much less profit than before.

I think the american market is a good indication of how the games and the people playing in them have had to adapt and become better to stay profitable. The american poker market in general is also much tougher to beat now.

We are very lucky that the poker market outside of this remains much softer and hugely beatable with a bit of intelligence,planning,study,hard work and the right character.

Opr

opr

Or maybe you just stumbled on a table full of nits !!

Opr

Killme00

opr wrote:

This kinda thriggered something i was thinking about lately Fuzz. I also read this recently "When Genius Failed" by "Roger Lowenstein" which got me thinking about this subject orginally

This is an excellent book. Derivative models today are still built around the same model but cash flows are strictly monitored.

opr

Killme00 wrote:

This is an excellent book. Derivative models today are still built around the same model but cash flows are strictly monitored.

Ah man it blows your mind to think about the scale of what was involved. Its a great story told really well if you have any kind of interest in the area.

Early in the book i was amazed to learn about how traders in the market used to base alot of stuff on feel and gut when making decisions alot like the players/traders in the poker market at present.

Have you read "Liar's Poker: Rising Through the Wreckage on Wall Street"
by "Michael Lewis" ? I was told to give this a go as a follow up.

Opr

Killme00

Liars Poker..no havent read it yet, heard its very entertaining....some of the things the guys in SSBB got away with back in the 80's is amazing. And yeah about playing/trading by feel/gut. Poker like trading is a situational game and the +EV situations from taking advantage of the small margins in your favour. Personally i prefer playing / trading in an information rich environment. As for fuzz's table situation, it all depends on your attitide to risk and the related returns. He was faced with zero risk but only minimal potential returns

phantom_lord

opr wrote:

Have you read "Liar's Poker: Rising Through the Wreckage on Wall Street"
by "Michael Lewis" ? I was told to give this a go as a follow up.

very entertaining book, definitely worth reading.

ollyk1

For an alternative view on "skill" in the markets and the perception of same have a read of "Fooled by Randomness". Very thought provoking.

"Barbarians at the gate" the story of LTCM is the definitive book of the junk bond era for me. I just couldn't put it down. Some great one liners too.

One guy is unhappy with his $10M bonus and goes to the MD to complain. The MD says very calmly "if I pay you any more you'll be making more than me" so the guy goes away happy that he's the number one priority in the company but in actual fact the MD pocketed ~$100M that year!! lol

Marq

opr wrote:

Poker is becoming an old market where the fundamentals are known by almost everyone entering the market. (Tv while in general its terrible for leaning poker it does teach hand selection) So seeing that they are selective in hands means very little now in relation to how good/bad, experienced or knoledgable a player is anymore.

Good post. I've been having very similar thoughts recently, although I still firmly believe that the average poker player is utterly rubbish.

CaptainNemo

This is my favourite type of table, whether live or online. I start raising and reraising every hand and stealing every single pot. Either you make a steady stream of small pots with no risk, or you force them to move out of their comfort zone and play back at you.

Killme00

Junk Bonds and Shakespeare in the poker forum, i wonder how much Shakespeare would put in on a draw.


Slowrolling bastardo - If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?

Van Dice

opr wrote:

This kinda thriggered something.....

Good post. Something I'd been talking about with someone recently actually. Poker will never become tough to beat though. What you said about markets become more sophisticated and developed is true, but look at entry standards and the regular players in it. The people involved who matter (ie big players who effectively set the prices) are usually highly intelligent and have access to the best research tools and information available.
Compare to poker (I was discussing this in relation to sports betting v financials, but poker will do!), where entry level is open to everyone, and more importantly, it appeals to degenerates/morons, which is how I got into it lol. The widespread use of HUDs and PT will help a lot of people, but I think most people don't/can't apply properly the information they have.


Both 'Fooled by Randomness' and 'Liar's Poker' are excellent btw

zuutroy

OPR's post pretty much explained the history of Betfair to a tee. The only way to make decent money trading their now is with huge volumes and a razor thin edge, whereas 5 years ago, there was literally money to hoover up through a variety of techniques if you had a bit of cop-on.
The thing with poker is the variance component is so large compared with a finiancial market or betfair, that there'll always be a majority who play and 'think' they're winning, or fool themselves into thinking they're winning in the long term, meaning it will always be intrinsically more 'beatable' than the above mentioned.

opr

Van Dice wrote:

Good post. Something I'd been talking about with someone recently actually. Poker will never become tough to beat though. What you said about markets become more sophisticated and developed is true, but look at entry standards and the regular players in it. The people involved who matter (ie big players who effectively set the prices) are usually highly intelligent and have access to the best research tools and information available.
Compare to poker (I was discussing this in relation to sports betting v financials, but poker will do!), where entry level is open to everyone, and more importantly, it appeals to degenerates/morons, which is how I got into it lol.


Both 'Fooled by Randomness' and 'Liar's Poker' are excellent btw

Yeah as you and Marq say the average player in the market at present is still terrible.
The sheer volumes of new people still taking an interest in poker on a daily basis is insuring streams of bad players continue to enter and help sustain the market in its current state.
We also still have lots of untapped poker markets which should continue to bring waves of more fish into the market.

Van Dice wrote:

The widespread use of HUDs and PT will help a lot of people, but I think most people don't/can't apply properly the information they have.

Is all the information/programs and forums on poker detremental to the softness of the poker market or does it contribute greatly to the markets longevity ?

I think the latter is much truer. It encourages people to stay in the market longer as they feel they can imrpove. As you point out most players will misapply the information they do learn anyway. This is a whole other thread in itself

Opr