Easy fold.....? 2/4 nl - low content

meathman 007

Villain is 21/16/1.50 over 63 hands on this table
Villain is 19/16/1.43 over 200 hands

Ok, my line, i always like to re-raise in this spot against this type of villain (he has barely played a hand in this session) - personally i hate flat calling in this spot - i prefer to define my hand somewhat preflop and try and avoid a cold deck situation on a ace or king high flop - i am fairly certain this guy is not going to flatcall my re-raise with aces or kings........ so i think im left with a fairly easy decision considering the villains actions in this hand....


Paddy Power "TURBO" Erseke 2/4, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop | saw showdown

Button horriblepose ($404)
SB Bodhisattwa ($794.40)
BB Hero ($464.70)
UTG Reclusion ($630.20)
UTG+1 johnconnelus ($242)

Preflop: Hero is in the BB with A K
2 folds, horriblepose raises to 16, 1 fold, Hero raises to 50, horriblepose raises to 150

your line....

phantom_lord

shove!

cardshark202

easy shove

meathman 007

cardshark202 wrote:

easy shove

given my read on villain, i think a shove is awful in this spot....... given how tight he has been playing and my past experience with him, im pretty sure hes going to have aces, kings or ace king in this spot

ianmc38

ship ship

meathman 007

interesting responses, i must be undervaluing the strength of ace king in this spot

Gholimoli

if you have his range correct then this is obviously an easy fold.
the reason why every one is saying shove is cuz people generally have a much wider range here than what you have given villain.

fuzzbox

fold

fuzzbox

meathman 007 wrote:

interesting responses, i must be undervaluing the strength of ace king in this spot

naah, they are overvaluing

fuzzbox

btw - I like to call a good bit pf against this type of villain

meathman 007

Gholimoli wrote:

if you have his range correct then this is obviously an easy fold.
the reason why every one is saying shove is cuz people generally have a much wider range here than what you have given villain.

ok, whats his wider range..... - obviously im hoping he is doing this with aq or aj suited (given my read on him i dont think he is doing this) - failing that he could have 10/10, jj or qq - all of which he will probobly call a potential shove and i am only a coinflip


However given my read, i put him on one of the top 3 hands....

meathman 007

fuzzbox wrote:

btw - I like to call a good bit pf against this type of villain

given my read in this hand - is flat calling his raise pre-flop not asking for trouble? - considering the tough spot i could get into with an ace or king high flop against the small range i put him on....

Gholimoli

i cant tell you what his range is,what i can tell you is that if his range includes:
TT,JJ,QQ,AQ then your in grate shape to push.
he will some times fold the pairs TT,JJ,QQ and even if he calls you are flipping so its good for you.

fuzzbox

meathman 007 wrote:

given my read in this hand - is flat calling his raise pre-flop not asking for trouble? - considering the tough spot i could get into with an ace or king high flop against the small range i put him on....

I mean just call the first raise.
Not call the 4-bet, that sux.

If you 3-bet, often AQ-/KQ- folds, and you wouldnt mind those hands in, and also sometimes he has TT, and board comes K42, and he cant help paying you a bet or two.

And if you miss, no harm done ... its not like he is a super-lag or anything, you can let him win some pots, he tends to have a good hand.

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

i cant tell you what his range is,what i can tell you is that if his range includes:
TT,JJ,QQ,AQ then your in grate shape to push.
he will some times fold the pairs TT,JJ,QQ and even if he calls you are flipping so its good for you.

Truly - hardly anybody does this with AQ/JJ/TT.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

I mean just call the first raise.
Not call the 4-bet, that sux.

If you 3-bet, often AQ-/KQ- folds, and you wouldnt mind those hands in, and also sometimes he has TT, and board comes K42, and he cant help paying you a bet or two.

And if you miss, no harm done ... its not like he is a super-lag or anything, you can let him win some pots, he tends to have a good hand.

Unless he's a supernit, I hate calling here. Its giving up so much value and we're going to end up folding the best hand laods of time. I dont think the times he has AQ and we have AK on an A high flop make up for it as it's going to be hard to squeeze a huge amount of value from the hand oop.

cardshark202

Yeah calling is pretty much not an option. Not shoving here seems terrible given the history. Calling turns a hugely +EV push into a -EV call imo. EDIT: Obv calling the first raise is an option but just a terrible one given history.

BobSloane

I think alot of players would just call your re-raise with AA or KK on the button as it gives them a chance to get your continuation bet. I'd nearly always shove here 100bbs deep.
Is there any button on blind history at all with ye?

Hawk Eye

cardshark202 wrote:

Yeah calling is pretty much not an option. Not shoving here seems horrendous given the history. Calling turns a hugely +EV push into a -EV call imho.

.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

Truly - hardly anybody does this with AQ/JJ/TT.

i actually have not played real poker for ages.
if peoples 3bet range has gone back to just AA,KK,QQ,AK then you are right fuzz but for what i have been reading it seems that these days people are 3betting with a much wider range.

Van Dice

Gholimoli wrote:

i actually have not played real poker for ages.
if peoples 3bet range has gone back to just AA,KK,QQ,AK then you are right fuzz but for what i have been reading it seems that these days people are 3betting with a much wider range.

Definitely 3betting ranges are a lot wider than that, but he means the 4bet here. Very few people 4-bet with AQ/JJ/TT

Gholimoli

Van Dice wrote:

Definitely 3betting ranges are a lot wider than that, but he means the 4bet here. Very few people 4-bet with AQ/JJ/TT

im one of the few ppl who still calls 4betting 3betting cuz i prefer it that way but basically that's what i meant.

Van Dice

Gholimoli wrote:

im one of the few ppl who still calls 4betting 3betting cuz i prefer it that way but basically that's what i meant.

ah ok

fuzzbox

Gholimoli wrote:

i actually have not played real poker for ages.
if peoples 3bet range has gone back to just AA,KK,QQ,AK then you are right fuzz but for what i have been reading it seems that these days people are 3betting with a much wider range.

his move to 150 is a 4-bet.
I dont think the range for 4 bet has changed enough to push AK here.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Unless he's a supernit, I hate calling here. Its giving up so much value and we're going to end up folding the best hand laods of time. I dont think the times he has AQ and we have AK on an A high flop make up for it as it's going to be hard to squeeze a huge amount of value from the hand oop.

And how much value are you going to get by 5-bet shoving against a 19/16 dude?

Calling the first raise pf is perfectly fine, and while you may hate it, I believe that it has merits. Its certainly not terrible or awful or horrendous. It might be different than what you would do though, but that doesnt make it bad.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

Yeah calling is pretty much not an option. Not shoving here seems terrible given the history. Calling turns a hugely +EV push into a -EV call imo. EDIT: Obv calling the first raise is an option but just a terrible one given history.

Yawn.
What history? I reread the OP to see if I had missed anything ... and I didnt see any history. Alls I saw was - a 19/16 opens btn, we 3-bet AK in blinds, and 19/16 4-bets us. The game is 2/4 ... your move?

When I spoke of calling - I was speaking only of the first raise (no the 3rd one). And I fail to see how its terrible ... given the profile of villain AND given the complete lack of history.

Gholimoli

i do agree with Fuzz,
as i said in my first post it depends on villains 3(4bet) range here.
i donno the games these days but if ranges are limited to what i said then i think folding is best now.
i also agree with flat calling his openning raise.
i actually think it's better play than raising him seen as he seems to be pretty tight.
basically i think the tigher the player is the more you should lean towards just flat calling his openning raise with AK.
reraising him would more than likely be -EV.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

And how much value are you going to get by 5-bet shoving against a 19/16 dude?

Calling the first raise pf is perfectly fine, and while you may hate it, I believe that it has merits. Its certainly not terrible or awful or horrendous. It might be different than what you would do though, but that doesnt make it bad.

Lol. I never said it was terrible or horrendous. I can definitely see your point of view, but I do think it'll be a -EV over a decent sample set of hands. I think never flat callin g the first raise with AK would be bad. Also, if he ever folds TT/JJ/QQ then obviously this is great for us. If he folds AQ/AJ, thats great as well, because we'll be picking up 40BBs or so uncontested where as if we call the 4 bet then we'll have to check fold most flops often folding the best hand, so I thnika 5 bet shove is definitely the value move.

ianmc38

Gholimoli wrote:

i do agree with Fuzz,
as i said in my first post it depends on villains 3(4bet) range here.
i donno the games these days but if ranges are limited to what i said then i think folding is best now.
i also agree with flat calling his openning raise.
i actually think it's better play than raising him seen as he seems to be pretty tight.
basically i think the tigher the player is the more you should lean towards just flat calling his openning raise with AK.
reraising him would more than likely be -EV.

Someone who plays 19/16 isnt tight and they open a huge range on the button. 3 betting ranges have gone from 99+/AJ+/KQs to literally any two cards. I played 250 hands of holdem yesterday and 90% of my co and button raises where 3bet by these type of TAGs. One hand I cold called and went to showdown with AQs and the guy in the blinds who was 20/14 had 47s. Some players are adjusting and are now 4 and 5 betting light as its the only way to be able to make any money during the daytime when the games are filled with these aggro TAGs. I think folding AK from the blinds against any TAG who opens the button and isnt a nit is losing a huge amount of value. I saw one hand recently where one of the biggest winners at 2/4 4 bet allin preflop with T6s.

Maybe this specific hand is different but with a button vs big blind confrontation like this, i'd need a big read to ever fold AK in this spot

fuzzbox

Theres a big difference between 3-bet and 4-bet IMHO.

If I had AK on btn, and opened, and BB 3-bet then I would 4-bet v.often.

However, here, btn opens, we 3-bet and he has 4-bet us. Now, I think we can lay down Vs this type of dude.

cardshark202

oops misread that there was some history but even still folding is terrible. we have about 39% equity vs QQ+/AK and theres already over 200 in the pot

fuzzbox

We have to put in 350 more to get 39% equity in a 800 pot (when he calls the last 250).

Our return is 312

Van Dice

Am I correct to think we need 44% equity to shove? (Assuming we are always called)
I would shove, imo the button raise/3-bet from blinds dynamic gives us enough equity. If villain is a regular it becomes even more important to shove for future 3-betting situations

cardshark202

he has to have QQ+/AK 100% of the time and never 4bet lightly or do it with slightly weaker hands to make this a fold. Also he might make a mistake and fold QQ however unlikely that may be.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

he has to have QQ+/AK 100% of the time and never 4bet lightly or do it with slightly weaker hands to make this a fold. Also he might make a mistake and fold QQ however unlikely that may be.

If you had some previous of 3-betting him in this spot, then I would agree with you, but you dont.

In reality he probably doesnt have AK here, instead he has QQ+ (and probably KK+), and never folds.