which high-reliability / low-cost car?

scab-e

hi

Anyone care to advise me about what's the best choice for a low cost car that hardly ever breaks down? I used to drive large engined cars but decided last year to go all green and mean and get a low cost car. My two priorities were minimum cost and maximum reliability. Third I guess is safety.

I bought a new yaris last year and I'm looking at the annual costs now a year later:
fuel 655.20
ins 260
tax 151
interest/depreciation 3120
service 172

---

total 4358.20

(I cut my mileage to 9,000km/year by walking most journeys less than a mile from the house)

So I'm pretty happy with most costs but obviously my capital costs are large. I bought a new car because on the journeys when I do drive, I often can't afford to be delayed (driving to airport at 4am, important work meetings etc).

As for safety: Yaris doen't have electronic stability control (ESC). I read this report during the year and thought maybe I should get a car with ESC. Anyone suggest a a cheap, safe car?

Maybe a 2 year old car would have been cheaper while still acceptably reliable. Any thoughts?

Couple of things i noticed about driving a small car:
Road noise was a problem. (are any small cars quiet inside?)
Stereo was crap (is it hard to modify a built-in stereo?)
Seats are uncomfortable and I tend to fall out of them as I go round a corner. Can a small car have comfy seats like in a Saab?
Slow acceleration didn't matter. Very little opportunity to overtake in Dublin and a lot more dualled roads outside Dublin.
Car had a high NCAP rating but I still felt I'd be creamed in a crash.

kmick

How about you buy a seond hand saloon car like the Toyota Avensis. if you get a 5+ year old model you should get it pretty cheap. Far more comfortable and safe. However higher insurance (1.6), road tax and petrol costs. Good sound system (CD), AC as standard on newer models. And you know its gonna be reliable (apart from some 2001/2002 models which have oil consumption issues).

C_Breeze

Wow , what a scrooge!

Kimbot

kmick wrote:

(apart from some 2001/2002 models which have oil consumption issues).

The first VVTI models of 2000-2002. There are some slight tips to stopping the oil consumption in these!! One I found was to head out to GSFParts and got Fully-Syntechetic(sp) oil (Its marked as "For Modern Fords" on the bottle) and it has solved my problems in the corolla!!

prospect

Your biggest cost was depreciation. If you still have the car you have not yet suffered that cost. The best option IMO is to keep the Yaris.

If you really want to save on the ~€1000 that it will cost you p.a. then:

1. Shop around for cheaper insurance, maybe ad your spouse (incl. common law spouse) this can actually reduce insurance.
2. Drive carefully and save fuel. Google effecient driving techniques.
3. When it comes time for a service, but the parts yourself from motor factors and just pay the labout costs.

With a bit of luck, you could reduce your costs to about ~€900 per annum. ~If you want cheaper than that, buy a moped.

maidhc

scab-e wrote:

Maybe a 2 year old car would have been cheaper while still acceptably reliable. Any thoughts?

1) If you want to go green, then the way to do it isn't by introducing another new car onto the roads.
2) A well maintained 30 year old car will have acceptable reliability
3) Careful driving and a well balanced chassis is far more important than ESC.
4) A 6.9 Merc produces zero carbon emission when not running. If you don't drive much, why not buy a car with a big engine.
5) Something like a 10 year old mondeo in good condition is about the cheapest car you can run. It is worth nothing so it cannot depreciate.

unkel

To substantially save money, you'll have to sell the Yaris and buy an old car. As maidhc points out, it is not necessarily the cheapest option to run a small car even though tax, insurance, petrol, etc. will be cheaper

prospect wrote:

2. Drive carefully and save fuel. Google effecient driving techniques

From his figures he's doing about 6l/100km or 45MPG. There's not too much to improve on that

scab-e

unkel wrote:

To substantially save money, you'll have to sell the Yaris and buy an old car. As maidhc points out, it is not necessarily the cheapest option to run a small car even though tax, insurance, petrol, etc. will be cheaper

I don't think I can go lower for tax insurance or fuel. Is anyone paying less than 260 for insurance? This has to be rock bottom?

Problem with a 10 yr old fully depreciated vehicle is reliability. Once a week I have to be somewhere where missing my appointment would mean a €500-1000 loss (plus reputation loss as I work in an area where being late is not on). Now I could leave an hour earlier but then I'm looking at 50 wasted hours per year which has a cost. I could find something productive to do in that time I guess... In any case, reliability is very important to me. From a cost point of view, my experience of old vehicles is that they incur random large costs. 300 quid here, 500 quid there for bits and pieces that wear out plus labour for work I don't understand. I hate this and I hate the time involved in dealing with a mechanic to sort these problems out. An old car with a guaranteee and a replacement vehicle would sort this out but I guess this kind of deal is not possible.

I could buy two 10 yr old mondeos at 1k each and reasonably expect to always have one working. Does this make sense? (I'd need two tax discs).

Yes I recognise that putting another car on the road is not green. I should have bought second-hand.

prospect suggests I could motor for 900/annum. I really think this is impossible unless I was lucky with reliability. Also I disagree with your view that depreciation can be avoided by holding on.

cost differences in fuel,tax and insurance for 1l to a 1.6l is around 600/annum. This may be worth it for the safety of a larger car.

maidhc, what do you mean by a well-balanced chassis? Is a yaris poorly balanced? It seems quite high for its weight.

I have driven very gently in the past year, watching the fuel consumption on the trip computer. I think it has had the side-effect of making my driving safer.

craichoe

Get a Diesel, and run it on Vegetable oil, works out at around 60c / litre.
Road tax is pricey, 528 for the year on a 1.9 but you get a more comfortable and more eco-friendly car using a renewable energy source.

maidhc

scab-e wrote:

I could buy two 10 yr old mondeos at 1k each and reasonably expect to always have one working. Does this make sense? (I'd need two tax discs).

No, it wouldn't. But we at home we have 3 cars, the youngest is mine (a focus), which is 5 years old and has 80k up. The oldest is 13years and has 200k (a mondeo). The mondeo is clocking 20k pa and has yet to breakdown... and I wounldn't consider this extra ordinary.

scab-e wrote:

maidhc, what do you mean by a well-balanced chassis? Is a yaris poorly balanced? It seems quite high for its weight.

Can't speak for the yaris per se, but something like a focus, or even a new (05 on) golf would be much more surefooted than the likes of an Avensis... but then there is the temptation to drive faster!

commited

Cheap, reliable car is a 88-91 Toyota Corolla 1.3. My grandmother had one from new and did 70000 miles in it. All she changed were the tyres and the exhaust. Everything else was original and it was just serviced yearly. She's not your typical granny driver either.

You'll pick one up for less than €1000, you'll never have to worry about depreciation, they're good on fuel and tax and insurance is cheap.

Your idea that cars suddenly become unreliable when they get old is ridiculous. If you buy a car thats been well cared for all it's life, it should be fine. My first car was a 92 Mini and it never gave me any real bother, never broke down or left me stranded. I then went to a 1990 BMW 318iS - same story again. Then I got a 04 landcruiser - left me stranded when the engine management light came on. I then went to a 06 landcruiser - injectors went after 60k. Then went to a 2005 Nissan Pathfinder and that was an absolute heap - left me stranded twice.

I'm now back to the BMW's, but if I didnt need a largeish car, I'd be looking at a 01/02 Skoda Octavia TDI for a nice cheap reliable car to run, something else worth considering.

cantdecide

C_Breeze wrote:

Wow , what a scrooge!

Why pay €150 for a pair of jeans when I could sell you a potato sack for €120:p .

The old cliches are just that. Minimum outlay and environmental soundness and all your criteria together requires you to think about older cars.

Yaris is a city car. Superminis feel cheap but I guarantee my '98 2.8 A6 is cheaper, safer, quieter, as reliable and more comfortable all things considered. Tax is a penance though.

jackofalltrades

unkel wrote:

To substantially save money, you'll have to sell the Yaris and buy an old car.

Seconded, depreciation and interest are you biggest costs, sell the Yaris and buy something a lot older and get rid of the loan.

I'd suggest something along the lines of this.
http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=730780

It's reliable, comfortable, economical and drives very well.
If you buy a car thats got a good reliability record, has been looked after well and regularly serviced it should last you for ages. I'd consider buying from the UK if you want a really well looked after car.

Finding a good independent garage can also keep your servicing cost low and can offer good honest advice.

colm_mcm

Woultn't worry about it too much, hang on to the car for a few years and get some value out of it. It still has warranty on it, and if you buy an older car you'll be getting rid of the 5 star safety aspect.
Wouldn't worry about not having VSC on a 1.0 Yaris.

gyppo

Buy a mid 90's 1l toyota starlet.
You have something reliable, economical, easy to tax and insure, and you will have no problem selling it on later.

tuxy

craichoe wrote:

Get a Diesel, and run it on Vegetable oil, works out at around 60c / litre.

Advising the op to do something illegal?

old boy

my 89 spacewagon has 269,000 on it, starts 1st tip, light on everything bar tax, no i wont sell it to you,

maidhc

tuxy wrote:

Advising the op to do something illegal?

Mind that horse, he is very high.

tuxy

maidhc wrote:

Mind that horse, he is very high.

I was just asking if it was illegal. It would be nice if someone was to clarify. And yes I guess a horse would be even cheaper to run. But where would you keep it while not in use?

scab-e

I've known a few people with old starlets. They seem indestructible. Safety probably ain't so hot.

I guess a well looked after old car from a reliable brand would beat a newer car, but at the same time age must be a fairly good predictor of likelihood of failure when all else is equal. The chart at the end of this page says a lot about age and reliability.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/ratings/reliability-histories-406/index.htm

prospect

scab-e wrote:

prospect suggests I could motor for 900/annum. I really think this is impossible unless I was lucky with reliability. Also I disagree with your view that depreciation can be avoided by holding on.

If you sell your car now you will loose €3120, by your own calculations.
If you keep the car, you don't loose that.

I know you are holding on to a depreciating asset, but from a cash in hand POV, you loose no money on depreciation.

Its like this (depreciation only):
If you buy a €16,000 car new and sell it the next year you loose about €4K. You now need to replace that car and that cycle continues.

If you keep the car for lets say, 15 years, you will always get the current equivalent of €1K scrappage or Trade-in-value. So the car effectively costs you €1K per annum in depreciation, that is 1/4 of the cost of changing annualy, and for 14 of those years it has zero impact on your cashflow.

So,
I stand by my original point, it would be cheaper to keep your current car for as long as possible.

craichoe

tuxy wrote:

Advising the op to do something illegal?

Wtf are you on about ... Declaring it to the Revenue is his perogative

tuxy

craichoe wrote:

Wtf are you on about ... Declaring it to the Revenue is his perogative

Sorry my bad, I didn't realise it would only cost 60 cent / litre while declaring it.