Blind on blind, sick river spot

cardshark202

400 eff stacks, villain is a good tricky tag, capable of 3 barelling I would say, but I've never seen him do this before. He's playing 22/19/4 or so this session.
I've been quite tight this session, quite unimaginative, might image would be of a straightforward tag, like 22/17/2ish

Folded to villain in SB, he makes it 12 to play I call

Flop Ah Th 6s

He bets 20, I call

Turn Tc

He bets 46, I call

River 3d

He overbet shoves for 320!

Now what would you do with the following:

a) AK
b) 9T
c) A5
d) KT

And is there any real difference in any of these holdings?

valor

if I had 1010 I would call

opr

valor wrote:

if I had 1010 I would call

Could you explain in a bit more detail why you would call with this ?

Opr

ianmc38

a. I would 3 bet preflop, raise the flop and fold the river

b. i would fold

c. instafold

d. fold.

his hand really looks like 66

Hectorjelly

rather than deciding what to do with various hands its probably best to work out what he has

Firstly, is it ever a bluff? In my experience no. However the board has loads of missed draws and the ten is a good scare card, so I dont think you can rule out a bluff completely.

If it isnt a bluff then it must be a bet for value. Big overbets like this work on the assumption that both players have strong hands, but the betters one is good enough to destroy the callers range. Given that its not likely that he is making a marginal value push with an ace, however I could see him pushing something like QT or KT hoping we call with an ace or a ten. It also could be a full house, which I think is more likely than a lone ten.

So given that we arent getting very good odds its probably best to fold all hands that arent full houses, maybe even 66.

cardshark202

Ok the reason I asked this is that I was the villain obv. I had Q8o, other station had T9 and timed down and called me.

BigCityBanker

cardshark202 wrote:

other station had T9

why does it make him a station? Are you folding 109 here at the river to a large overbet?

ianmc38

yes. without a specific read. against reggie snapcall though.

RasTa

.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

Ok the reason I asked this is that I was the villain obv. I had Q8o, other station had T9 and timed down and called me.

How dare he call you in a BvB with trips ... the fiend

RoundTower

cardshark202 wrote:

400 eff stacks, villain is a spewy fish, wants to win every pot, once he's stuck he will just pot pot pot until he gets it back or does his whole tank. I've never seen him do this before, but I have a mined database that shows him do it all the time. He's playing 38/21/4 or so this session.
I've been quite tight this session, quite unimaginative, might image would be of a straightforward tag, like 20/15/2ish. I've been waiting to trap this spewtard because I know he feels he can blow me off a hand, and that if I get him in a big pot he will start dumping buyin after buyin.

Folded to villain in SB, he makes it 12 to play I call

Flop Ah Th 6s

He bets 20, I call

Turn Tc

He bets 46, I call

River 3d

He overbet shoves for 320!

Now what would you do with the following:

a) AK
b) 9T
c) A5
d) KT

And is there any real difference in any of these holdings?

well in that case I call.

cardshark202

lol

Hectorjelly

lol

pok3rplaya

I probably fold T9 here.

I don't like your bluff though.

pok3rplaya

I probably fold T9 here.

I don't like your bluff though.

cardshark202

Surely if everyone is fold any non-house hands then its a pretty good bluff, no?

Samba

well, the problem with it is, is that some villains will ask themselves, why bet so much, would he not bet for value....

Which is probably the reasoning under which you were called.

pok3rplaya

lol yeah I guess you're right. I think my main problems are with the turn and pf. pf is just too loose. I think the only way the turn is good is if we commit ourselves to shoving almost any river card because in a vaccum I don't think the bet accomplishes much appart from setting up this situation. I doubt we fold pout any aces or tens. We fold FD's all right but draws don't make up enough of his range to make this fact alone worth the bluff. We also have 0 outs when called which makes things worse.

So anyway, assuming we are setting up for a river push I think we should really want to make things work out so we have more like a PSB left on the river. I think it's FE is at least as good with a better risk/reward ratio and it avoids the problem of having to work overbet shoves with the nuts into our game for meta-implications. To accomplish this I think our bet sizing needs to be better. Specifically, bet more pf and on the turn. Betting more on the turn sets us up to win more when our river bluff (which we are committed to) gets through. If we do all this I like the river shove better.

bops

cardshark202 wrote:

Surely if everyone is fold any non-house hands then its a pretty good bluff, no?

it's funny how peoples lines change when you post the results??

nice bluff, calling with 9T is only beating a bluff here - ul imo

Hectorjelly

cardshark202 wrote:

Surely if everyone is fold any non-house hands then its a pretty good bluff, no?

no just because a few people here think its a fold doesnt mean thats what a standard TAG will do, the reason poker is so profitable is mainly because people cant fold strong hands.

cardshark202

I think I just ran into the absolute pinnacle of his range given the line he took, tbh. And even then he timed down and called. I do kinda agree with pokerplaya about the turn, but I disagree with your betsizing idea. Betting more pf, on flop and on turn would make each of those bets far less profitable(or more unprofitable!) in a vaccum. However, when I overshove river, my range is so polarized that obv even the top of his range only beats a bluff. Although for my push to be profitable he has to fold a huge %age of the time, he also knows I need to be bluffing quite a high %age of the time for his call to be good.
As a side note, I think this would be a sweet spot to overshove something like AQ for value against a tough thinking player. EDIT: For clarity this would be quite rare though and would be quite dependant on gameflow etc..

RoundTower

cardshark202 wrote:

As a side note, I think this would be a sweet spot to overshove something like AQ for value against a tough thinking player.

I think this would be a sweet spot for a tough thinking player to just call the turn with KT hoping you do something retarded on the river.

even if the shove is +EV compared to checking it is hard to argue that it is better than betting a normal amount which will surely be called by any A.

cardshark202

Please quote my edit too you chancer. It would be quite rare and obv we would need some history for me to do it, but I can imagine a scenario where it would be good

Macspower

have to admire the liathróidí on you.... I would have folded 910 here......

But as pointed out loads of people just cant fold here.. trying to get someone to fold trips is bad for profit....

MrPillowTalk

If he sees you as a thinking player and he is capable of realising his own line will be mainly missed draws and lone aces then he can never fold any ten to your overbet on the river because he should realise you never shove for value against a large proportion of what make up his range.

My 2 cents

Samba

MrPillowTalk wrote:

If he sees you as a thinking player and he is capable of realising his own line will be mainly missed draws and lone aces then he can never fold any ten to your overbet on the river because he should realise you never shove for value against a large proportion of what make up his range.

My 2 cents

A more elaborate and concise version of what I was attempting to convey and spot on imo. Unless of course you always make retardo river pushes with monsters

cardshark202

MrPillowTalk wrote:

If he sees you as a thinking player and he is capable of realising his own line will be mainly missed draws and lone aces then he can never fold any ten to your overbet on the river because he should realise you never shove for value against a large proportion of what make up his range.

My 2 cents

Yeah thats what I was touching on when I said it would be a good spot to shove a strong ace for value if I felt he was thinking along those lines and would hence call 99 or something